Reboot

[Slog Bait]

I'm more just saying it's a sense of consistency. since they seemd to have locked down a tone in AE (which isn't necessarily lighter - since AE's plot is pretty dark) which is probably more the fact that the characters (Mudokons, Sligs, Abe) have more humourous elements to them. So it makes sense to add these to a remake of AO since there's a consistency in the characters and less of a noticeable change between NnT and future installments of the Quintology. But besides from a couple of moments in the cutscenes from I've seen the majority of this takes place within gameplay and the dialogue heard by Mudokons and Sligs. And, I mean, they even took the most cartoonish cutscene from AO and made it relatively a lot darker - so they haven't abandoned that side of the storytelling as well.

But yeah that'll be my final word too I guess. unless Manco replies with a harshly worded comment....

The characters were consistent as they were and showed visible progress with each game, even in MO. There would be no visible or clear character development if you portrayed them exactly the same every appearance they had.

[Manco]

I'm still not entirely sure how NnT is that much more comedic than Oddysee or Exoddus, just because it has more expressive characters and a couple of silly one liners from the Mudokons.

Mudokons are constantly spouting one-liners and portrayed as oafish and upbeat. Sligs are no longer menacingly silent but are constantly muttering away about their paycheck and how much they wanna shoot stuff with their guns. Abe lets out a buffoonish laugh every time he kills a Slig.

The characters aren’t more expressive, they’re just more exaggerated.

[El Dango AGAIN]

I think all that fits perfectly with how these characters are usually portrayed. Mudokons were always upbeat in Oddysee, Sligs were always stupid and violent by nature, and Abe's laugh was always there. Everything was like this to begin with, only now it's more clear than ever, since the world and characters are no longer restricted by age old technology.

This might be the point where we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Manco]

Mudokons worked in stony silence and would only communicate in neutral tones apart from laughing at Abe’s antics. They didn’t spout one-liners every five seconds.

Sligs were shown as stupid and violent but also had a menacing quality to them thanks to their silence (other than the pleasure they took in beating Mudokons) and their hair-trigger fingers; they weren’t chatty bumblers.

Abe’s laugh was not the grating cackle it is now.

[Holy Sock]

Right. Because they hadn't figured out what personalities they wanted them to have. And mudokons and Sligs had those personalities in the AE cutscenes. The only reason they weren't in gameplay is because of memory limits in the PS1 era.

Again in AO the characterisation was very basic.

EDIT: @SlogBait. that doesn't make much sense, though. Sure, you could say that for Abe but you can't have character development for nameless Mudokons, Sligs, and other one off characters. The fact that Sligs had more colourful personalities in AE isn't character progression or development.

[El Dango AGAIN]

Mudokons worked in stony silence and would only communicate in neutral tones apart from laughing at Abe’s antics. They didn’t spout one-liners every five seconds.

Sligs were shown as stupid and violent but also had a menacing quality to them thanks to their silence (other than the pleasure they took in beating Mudokons) and their hair-trigger fingers; they weren’t chatty bumblers.

Abe’s laugh was not the grating cackle it is now.

I have nothing to add to this. They didn't talk in the old game, they do talk in the new game. You think this makes a big difference, I don't. Agree to disagree.

[Slog Bait]

EDIT: @SlogBait. that doesn't make much sense, though. Sure, you could say that for Abe but you can't have character development for nameless Mudokons, Sligs, and other one off characters. The fact that Sligs had more colourful personalities in AE isn't character progression or development.

AO was literally based around and only focusing on Abe. I'm speaking about all the main characters of the story. It's assumed Molluck would have gotten more characterization in later games since he's meant to make more appearances. You know what would have been cool? Having the impression from AO that he was calm and collected and then finding out later he's the exact opposite of that. You know what's not so cool? Finding out exactly what type of character he is right off the bat so there's no surprises later that he's an asshole with anger issues. Same with the nameless sligs. Same with the mudokons. Give us a slow reveal of the world, don't throw everything in our face at once. Whiiich is exactly what AO into AE did.

Who knows, maybe Molluck ends up some tragic and sympathetic character next time we see him.

Also if I'm understanding things right about the muds chattering, that doesn't give them any more character than the originals did. It just makes them chattery. I can guarantee they all speak the same handful of stuff on loops here and there like the sligs did in MO, and there's no uniqueness outside of their voices. And in that aspect, I agree with El Dango about the talking not making a difference. It's like how AE handled the mudokon's emotions and how they had differently pitched voices, which is something I don't think would have taken away from AO's gameplay if it had included something similar. I can imagine it getting annoying at times, though.



E- I think it'd be a good idea if a mod moved this to the spoiler forum, since some of the stuff being discussed might be considered spoiler worthy and there's not really any getting around it.

[Holy Sock]

AO was literally based around and only focusing on Abe. I'm speaking about all the main characters of the story. It's assumed Molluck would have gotten more characterization in later games since he's meant to make more appearances. You know what would have been cool? Having the impression from AO that he was calm and collected and then finding out later he's the exact opposite of that. You know what's not so cool? Finding out exactly what type of character he is right off the bat so there's no surprises later that he's an asshole with anger issues. Same with the nameless sligs. Same with the mudokons. Give us a slow reveal of the world, don't throw everything in our face at once. Whiiich is exactly what AO into AE did.

Who knows, maybe Molluck ends up some tragic and sympathetic character next time we see him.

Also if I'm understanding things right about the muds chattering, that doesn't give them any more character than the originals did. It just makes them chattery. I can guarantee they all speak the same handful of stuff on loops here and there like the sligs did in MO, and there's no uniqueness outside of their voices. And in that aspect, I agree with El Dango about the talking not making a difference. It's like how AE handled the mudokon's emotions and how they had differently pitched voices, which is something I don't think would have taken away from AO's gameplay if it had included something similar. I can imagine it getting annoying at times, though.



E- I think it'd be a good idea if a mod moved this to the spoiler forum, since some of the stuff being discussed might be considered spoiler worthy and there's not really any getting around it.

There's still a difference between a natural progression of character development and changing characters between installments. Molluck becoming more sympatheic in a future installment is the development of his characterisation. Making all Sligs much more humourous in AE isn't development at all. It's giving personality and life to creatures that had nothing in the first game - because the first game was very basic. Just because story focuses entirely on Abe doesn't mean side characters cannot have distinct personalities.

Surely NnT proves this point? Since it has the exact same story as AO but the side creatures (Mudokons & Sligs) have actual personalities this time around?

And what I was saying about Molluck is that you'd have a point if in NnT they made Molluck a completely comedic character in NnT. Not if he developed into a sympathetic or perhaps humourous character naturally.

But giving all the Mudokons and Sligs in AE more personality isn't character progression.

[Job McYossie]

No, not character progression. It felt like world progression. In AO we got to know almost nothing about any bit of the world. All we got to know was the tiny amount of exposition given at the beginning. In AE, when less important characters got a bit more defined it felt like the world I was experiencing was becoming more known.

[Holy Sock]

By my argument would be that that was not particularly intentional - maybe it the sense that they told the story the way they did because they wanted to keep the story very basic (and focus on the game itself) - and to be the worldbuilding of Oddworld is more significant in its story ie going from saving Mudokons from Molluck to saving the Queen from Lady Margaret to saving whatever from her great grandmother to the huge Oddworld cities and Khanzumers or whatever.

Giving the Mudokons and Sligs dialogue, in game, that makes them seem more like the Mudokons and Sligs in AE doesn't feel like it's ruining this world progression at all. But that they had a chance to give some personality to these creatures that they couldn't afford to do in the first game because of either time, memory, or they simly hadn't figured out yet. And since they *did* figure it out it only makes sense to include some of that in the remake - so Sligs and Mudokons don't seem very different between this game and the next. And so you don't get people debating about the difference between Sligs with essentially no dialogue - and Sligs with some humourous dialogue.

[Manco]

Right. Because they hadn't figured out what personalities they wanted them to have. And mudokons and Sligs had those personalities in the AE cutscenes. The only reason they weren't in gameplay is because of memory limits in the PS1 era.

Again in AO the characterisation was very basic.

Your main argument seems to hinge on “they always meant to do it but didn’t have the resources, so including it now is an improvement”.

That’s a false argument. Just because they can do something now doesn’t mean it’s automatically an improvement to the game.

There's still a difference between a natural progression of character development and changing characters between installments. Molluck becoming more sympatheic in a future installment is the development of his characterisation. Making all Sligs much more humourous in AE isn't development at all. It's giving personality and life to creatures that had nothing in the first game - because the first game was very basic. Just because story focuses entirely on Abe doesn't mean side characters cannot have distinct personalities.

Side characters can absolutely have personality. The problem here is that they always did have a personality, just much more restrained and less goofy than they are presented in NnT.

When playing through AO and AE, it’s not too difficult to pick up on the fact that Sligs are lazy and stupid – they’re often sleeping, they don’t deviate from their patrol routes, they often respond to Gamespeak or unknown sounds with confusion. In cutscenes we see their greedy and self-interested side, and their subservience to Glukkons.

All of that characterization comes through without ever reducing the intimidation of a Slig’s presence in-game. But by adding more exaggerated personality traits to them in NnT they are shown in a much more comedic and incompetent light, and this reduces their presence as a threat. Intellectually, I still understand that they will shoot and kill Abe of they spot him, but I don’t have as strong an emotional reaction to them any more.

Surely NnT proves this point? Since it has the exact same story as AO but the side creatures (Mudokons & Sligs) have actual personalities this time around?

Yes, and the net effect here is that they are harder to take seriously, and thus the story in NnT is harder to take seriously.

But giving all the Mudokons and Sligs in AE more personality isn't character progression.

Yes, and that’s an issue. One of the supposed themes of the Quintology is that as the story unfolds we see more and more of the Industrialist ‘food chain’ – as more of the corporate hierarchy is revealed we learn that those we thought were villains are just schmucks who have to answer to their bosses. This is what SB and Job are both talking about – as the world becomes more defined, our perception of different characters is supposed to change. But if you give those characters personality right from the start you lose that development later down the line.

Giving the Mudokons and Sligs dialogue, in game, that makes them seem more like the Mudokons and Sligs in AE doesn't feel like it's ruining this world progression at all. But that they had a chance to give some personality to these creatures that they couldn't afford to do in the first game because of either time, memory, or they simly hadn't figured out yet. And since they *did* figure it out it only makes sense to include some of that in the remake - so Sligs and Mudokons don't seem very different between this game and the next. And so you don't get people debating about the difference between Sligs with essentially no dialogue - and Sligs with some humourous dialogue.

But Sligs never had humorous dialogue until MO, where they were portrayed as much less potent threats than they were in the past. MO’s tone was also much more humorous across the board and this had a detrimental effect on the game’s story.

Two final points:

1. I don’t agree with the idea of making characterization consistent across all of the games – it results in very flat character progression.
2. I think that characterization can very easily go too far, and should be used sparingly. I don’t think that it should be overspent on nameless beings that appear frequently throughout a story, especially if there’s no meaningful attempt to make them all individuals.

e: I feel like I’m spending a lot of time criticizing NnT, so I just wanna quickly point out that I do really enjoy it and I think they got a lot of things right. I just have some very particular things that I’d like to see change for the next instalment, and I happen to be spending a lot of time discussing them.

[AvengingGibbons]

I remember being terrified playing Abe's Oddysee as a young kid, and the lack of dialogue helped to give this sense of danger. Silence is crazy scary! The area of the game this was most evident in was Stockyards, where you'd have the silhouettes of sligs, their red demonic eyes being the only visible part of them. The inability to control the sligs in the stockyards, and their pretty frequent 'shoot on sight' nature in this early part of the game (along with the forementioned lack of dialogue and midnight silence) made me shit my pants. And it gave you the expectation of danger to come as you progressed further into the game.

There should definately be different areas of the game where the sligs employ different characteristics. In some areas they should have no dialogue, let alone silly humourous dialogue, and in other areas the game should be free to express the humour through slig dialogue. This way you get the best of both worlds. If you carefully consider which areas to do this in, then it would work well. After all, every creature is unique, and so some will have that merciless nature and would be employed by the glukkons for roles in the companies that take advantage of their unique characteristics. Some will be cowards, some will work out of fear, some will work because theyre loyal, some will work to earn a living.

[Getchapants]

Everything that they brought into this game ive loved I really enjoyed it the graphics, cutscenes, gameplay and especially the dialogue always got a good laugh out of the sligs, yes it may not be as menacing as the old game but you cant say the game isn't fun I had a blast!

[Holy Sock]

EDIT: i really wish you hadn't started the point-by point model Manco! So much more time consuming!!

Your main argument seems to hinge on “they always meant to do it but didn’t have the resources, so including it now is an improvement”.

That’s a false argument. Just because they can do something now doesn’t mean it’s automatically an improvement to the game.

That's not my argument at all. My argument is that they only really locked down Oddworld in AE so it makes sense that they brought some of these elements into the remake of NnT. Whether or not this is an improvement is a matter of taste. I'm just saying it completely makes sense why they did it.

Side characters can absolutely have personality. The problem here is that they always did have a personality, just much more restrained and less goofy than they are presented in NnT.

When playing through AO and AE, it’s not too difficult to pick up on the fact that Sligs are lazy and stupid – they’re often sleeping, they don’t deviate from their patrol routes, they often respond to Gamespeak or unknown sounds with confusion. In cutscenes we see their greedy and self-interested side, and their subservience to Glukkons.

All of that characterization comes through without ever reducing the intimidation of a Slig’s presence in-game. But by adding more exaggerated personality traits to them in NnT they are shown in a much more comedic and incompetent light, and this reduces their presence as a threat. Intellectually, I still understand that they will shoot and kill Abe of they spot him, but I don’t have as strong an emotional reaction to them any more.

I don't get what you're arguing here. You do understand that the characters were silent in game because there was no memory to do any more? If they could have had more dialogue in AE, which makes the Sligs like there were in cutscenes, they would have done it. I even believe Stew & lorn have talked about this in interviews.

The personalities of Sligs and Mudokons in game in NnT is exactly the same as their personalities in the AE cutscenes - which is the true representation of these characters as opposed to the gameplay of AE. It's like complaining that Abe looks cartoonish in NnT when he looks almost exactly the same as he did in the originals in cutscenes - that's how he's supposed to look. But he doesn't because of memory. And all they could afford to do was lower quality sprites.

Yes, and the net effect here is that they are harder to take seriously, and thus the story in NnT is harder to take seriously.

The important thing about Oddworld is the themes and parallels it explores. Oddworld doesn't need really serious characters to explore these effectively. AE & SW did a bang up job whilst still maintaining humour throughout.

Yes, and that’s an issue. One of the supposed themes of the Quintology is that as the story unfolds we see more and more of the Industrialist ‘food chain’ – as more of the corporate hierarchy is revealed we learn that those we thought were villains are just schmucks who have to answer to their bosses. This is what SB and Job are both talking about – as the world becomes more defined, our perception of different characters is supposed to change. But if you give those characters personality right from the start you lose that development later down the line.

I talked about this above:

By my argument would be that that was not particularly intentional - maybe it the sense that they told the story the way they did because they wanted to keep the story very basic (and focus on the game itself) - and to be the worldbuilding of Oddworld is more significant in its story ie going from saving Mudokons from Molluck to saving the Queen from Lady Margaret to saving whatever from her great grandmother to the huge Oddworld cities and Khanzumers or whatever.

Giving the Mudokons and Sligs dialogue, in game, that makes them seem more like the Mudokons and Sligs in AE doesn't feel like it's ruining this world progression at all. But that they had a chance to give some personality to these creatures that they couldn't afford to do in the first game because of either time, memory, or they simly hadn't figured out yet. And since they *did* figure it out it only makes sense to include some of that in the remake - so Sligs and Mudokons don't seem very different between this game and the next. And so you don't get people debating about the difference between Sligs with essentially no dialogue - and Sligs with some humourous dialogue.

But Sligs never had humorous dialogue until MO, where they were portrayed as much less potent threats than they were in the past. MO’s tone was also much more humorous across the board and this had a detrimental effect on the game’s story.

Yes they did. In every single cutscene they had dialogue in AE.

Two final points:

1. I don’t agree with the idea of making characterization consistent across all of the games – it results in very flat character progression.
2. I think that characterization can very easily go too far, and should be used sparingly. I don’t think that it should be overspent on nameless beings that appear frequently throughout a story, especially if there’s no meaningful attempt to make them all individuals.

e: I feel like I’m spending a lot of time criticizing NnT, so I just wanna quickly point out that I do really enjoy it and I think they got a lot of things right. I just have some very particular things that I’d like to see change for the next instalment, and I happen to be spending a lot of time discussing them.

By my argument is that it's not character progression. These aren't really characters like Abe, Alf, Molluck, or Munch. Who can all have character development and character arcs.

This is about having very very basic archetypes in the original game with no characterisation. Then deciding to add personalities to the various species of Oddworld who are not major named characters. That's not character progression. That's not world progression. And it makes complete sense why they carried this over into NnT. Because since AE that's obviously what kind of personalities they wanted both Mudokons and Sligs to have.

[Manco]

That's not my argument at all. My argument is that they only really locked down Oddworld in AE so it makes sense that they brought some of these elements into the remake of NnT. Whether or not this is an improvement is a matter of taste. I'm just saying it completely makes sense why they did it.

I don't get what you're arguing here. You do understand that the characters were silent in game because there was no memory to do any more? If they could have had more dialogue in AE, which makes the Sligs like there were in cutscenes, they would have done it.

whoosh


Look, I’m not gonna bother continuing to argue with a brick wall, so I’ll just summarize:

There is such a thing as too much characterization, and I think NnT has done this through adding too much humorous dialogue to in-game NPCs.

I get that Mudokons are meant to be naïve but good-natured, and that Sligs are meant to be lazy and stupid. I don’t think this needed to be reinforced in gameplay to the extent that NnT does, and I think that this becomes distracting and takes away from the atmosphere of the game – it removes tension and undermines the more serious themes of the game.

I don’t think that these characters were ever meant to be as exaggerated or comical as they come across now, and I don’t think they were this exaggerated in any other game prior to NnT, with the exception of MO which suffered from major tonal issues.

These characters are portrayed as more comical than they have been before, and regardless of whether that was originally intended for AO, adding it now detracts from the mood of the NnT.

[Holy Sock]

How is that a "whoosh"? I'm just explaining why things are the way they are based on information gathered from the various interviews about NnT over the last few years and my own reasoning of the development from AO to AE.

That's not related to whether or not it's an improvement. Just that that's why the gamespeak and in game dialogue was one way in AE and the other way in NnT. That's in no way contradicting by first point.

If you want my opinion, which i've also argued, I don't have a problem with it because it's the same as the cutscenes in Abe's Exoddus and personally doesn't feel intrusive to the feel of the world itself.

If you seriously can't see how the characters in NnT are the same as they were in AE then I really think you need to play AE again.

EDIT: I'm fine that people prefer it the way it was in AO. What I find strange is that you can't seem to fathom *why* it's this way. And it's been this way since Abe's Exoddus.

EDIT2: I'm just gonna summarize that to make it clearer:

You said "Your main argument seems to hinge on “they always meant to do it but didn’t have the resources, so including it now is an improvement”."

I'm saying that the ingame "characterisations" of both Sligs and Mudokons are not representative of Sligs and Mudokon personalities because of memory issues. And that the cutscenes in AE are where you look to see how Oddworld represent them.

YOu said that "But Sligs never had humorous dialogue until MO" which is wrong. Since they were in AE's cutscenes. So you point to the gameplay of AE. Which isn't a good argument. Since the cutscenes are the true representation of the characters in that game. And they line up with the representations in NnT.

And none of that is about it being an improvement. OWI & JAW may think it's an improvement. All that's about is that NnT isn' portraying the characters differently from AE. It just has the memory bank to do it in game.

[Manco]

Nowhere have I said that I don’t understand the reasoning you’re putting forth, I’m contesting your belief that this is the way it should be.

You’re arguing that they have brought the characterization of NPCs in NnT in line with how they are portrayed in cutscenes in AE. I’m contesting that 1) those characters were never as exaggerated in AE as they are in NnT, and 2) giving the NPCs so much exaggerated characterization detracts from the atmosphere in NnT.

It’s as simple as that.

[Holy Sock]

Well you're wrong then. Because the Sligs in Abe's Exoddus cutscenes are like that.

It detracting from the atmosphere is an opinion you're certainly entitled to even if I don't share it.

[Slog Bait]

Sock, the problem we have with your argument is you're saying "oh well it's like that in AE" and our problem is the fact that NNT is supposed to be AO and not AE.

[Holy Sock]

I'm pretty sure our entire argument, SB, was about the issue of whether it's supposed to be like AO or AE. That's where the argument of character development between the games, consistency, the perspective of storytelling etc came from. That's really the reason the arguments now turned into whether or not the Sligs & mudokons in NnT are the same in AE.

So my argument is a bit more than "oh well it's like that in AE".

[Manco]

Sock, the problem we have with your argument is you're saying "oh well it's like that in AE" and our problem is the fact that NNT is supposed to be AO and not AE.

Plus when they did it in AE they didn’t go overboard and knew not to do it all the time because that makes it boring.

[Holy Sock]

Well there you're just gonna get into a matter of taste. I don't see how they went overboard in NnT by giving the ingame Sligs and Mudokons the same personalities and some similar lines as the AE characters - which, I'll say again to bring this back to the original argument with SB, I feel are the personalities that OWI want their characters to have since I believe they were still figuring out Oddworld when they created AO - much like the difficult first Season of many TV shows that haven't really found their groove yet.

Overboard would be rewriting all the cutscenes to include nothing but slapstick humour and keep any sense of darkness to an absolute minimum. NnT seems far more authentically "Oddworld" than MO.

[Connell]

This is literally just the old George Lucas thing. AO may have not been exactly how they wanted it, but it was perfect for us. Then when they come along and say, "Well actually if we'd had X we would have done Y" there is natural backlash from the fans.

Holy Sock, I don't think your TV analogy works for Oddworld, as AO was by no means a difficult first season, it was the pinnacle of the series.

[Holy Sock]

I don't think so. I think AE is the pinnacle of the series. The only thing I think AO did better was its mystic atmosphere - but I'd chalk that up to the fact that AE was a bonus game and it's story was superfluous to the Quintology - but it's story was handled better from a writing and structural standpoint than AO.

And the difficult first season analogy wasn;t a comment on the quality, despite the fact that I like AE better, but that the series hadn't figured out exactly want it wanted to be.

And since AE came out a mere 9 months after AO I don't feel this is really the same as the Star Wars rereleases. Since I think NnT follows AE in some respects.

[Manco]

The only thing I think AO did better was its mystic atmosphere

OK no I’m out, this has gotta be trolling.

[Connell]

I don't think so. I think AE is the pinnacle of the series. The only thing I think AO did better was its mystic atmosphere.

You do realise that's the thing you've been repeatedly saying you're glad they moved away from in New 'N' Tasty?

[Holy Sock]

I don't think giving the Sligs and Mudokons those personalities has compromised the mysticism though. And the native areas seem like they've preserved that quality very well - which I thought best captures that mystical quality.

The fact that they've stuck to the original so closely means that any change is relatively minor. It takes far more than some humourous lines of dialogue in game or one or two more added comedic moments in the cutscenes to undermine the strengths of AO.

EDIT: And c'mon, Manco, you are aware that many people prefer AE over AO? It's not as if I said MO is the greatest Oddworld game and one of the best 3D platformers of our generation.

EDIT: And to add to that point I don't think the two facets of Oddworld are mutually exclusive either.

[MeechMunchie]

I thought preferring AE for the graphics and gameplay and AO for the atmosphere was the prevailing opinion here?

That's what Oddworld is though. It's a satirical take on the world. It has exaggerated characters, and listening to Lorne the slapstick comedic elements are obviously important to him.

The things you hate are actually what Oddworld has been since around 1998, and probably even earlier in Lorne's head.

I'm going to trot out my "Oddworld was always meant to be wacky and vivid and oh-so-sinister and AO was only GRIM DARK VIOLENCE because everything in the mid-'90s had to be fucking DOOM to get published" argument again

Anyone who claims that this or that "harms the atmosphere" or "detracts from the mood" needs to consider what exactly that atmosphere is supposed to be, and whether that's their decision to make.

There is such a thing as too much characterization, and I think NnT has done this through adding too much humorous dialogue to in-game NPCs.

That's conflating character and execution. There was nothing wrong with the character their lines implied, they just spouted them unnaturally often.

I don't think you can really condemn it as a failure of Oddworld's creative integrity when it can be solved by changing a few "idle_speech_timer" values in the code. It's the "wrong green" all over again.

As for JAW, I'd like to point out that you'll get a lot more mileage out of a few dialogue lines if you use them more sparingly. Let people hear all that ambient sound you worked on.

[Slog Bait]

I'm going to trot out my "Oddworld was always meant to be wacky and vivid and oh-so-sinister and AO was only GRIM DARK VIOLENCE because everything in the mid-'90s had to be fucking DOOM to get published" argument again

This argument would work better if you didn't have shit like Crash Bandicoot, Croc, and Rayman coming out around the same time.

Anyone who claims that this or that "harms the atmosphere" or "detracts from the mood" needs to consider what exactly that atmosphere is supposed to be, and whether that's their decision to make.

And this one would work better if we were talking about something that wasn't a remake of another game with an established atmosphere already, and we weren't told the team was doing their best to capture the tone and feel of the original. Of course it's not our decision to make, we aren't the ones making the game. Doesn't mean we can't sit here like OH NOOOO when we notice something's off to us.

[Manco]

I'm going to trot out my "Oddworld was always meant to be wacky and vivid and oh-so-sinister and AO was only GRIM DARK VIOLENCE because everything in the mid-'90s had to be fucking DOOM to get published" argument again

From everything we’ve seen and heard about Lorne’s original conception of the Quintology, combined with the tone set out by pretty much every piece of concept art produced for the series, and the themes and ideas that Oddworld is meant to be dealing with, I don’t think this argument holds water.

That's conflating character and execution. There was nothing wrong with the character their lines implied, they just spouted them unnaturally often.

I don't think you can really condemn it a failure of Oddworld's creative integrity when it can be solved by changing a few "idle_speech_timer" values in the code. It's the "wrong green" all over again.

As for JAW, I'd like to point out that you'll get a lot more mileage out of a few dialogue lines if you use them more sparingly. Let people hear all that ambient sound you worked on.

I’m not opposed to this, but the comedic lines would have to be drastically reduced and a lot more ‘serious’ lines introduced. There’s also the issue with the Sligs’ goofier movement animations, particularly the way they run.