New New 'n' Tasty News -

Manco · #91 11-03-2013, 02:59 AM

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I think you're wrong, and I quite agree Nepsotic. Don't keep suggesting that Nep is fixating only on negatives, because he clearly stated that in overall their work is great.

That was one line at the bottom of a post after several posts of bitching in this thread alone. And we all know that certain people have been nitpicking every minor flaw they can find for a long time now.

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It just could be better, and it's not only normal, but recommended that we should point out flaws and bugs, because it's not JAW to whom the game is shipping, it's us. If you'd like to have a-great-game-but-with-many-minor-flaws it's fine, but I, for example, wouldn't.

How do you expect a small development team working on their first relatively large game to perfectly match every little detail of a game produced on a much larger budget by a much larger team, especially when they’re building it with a completely different engine and a completely different ruleset?

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About judging pre-release screenshots: the game is going to be released between 2013 and 2014. It's only two months from now. You can safely assume it's at least close to final...

They’re still working on it. Of course they’re still working on it, game devs are notorious for working right up as close to the deadline as they can make it. Ever heard of crunch time?

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Personally, I'd be dissapointed if they didn't fix the animation from here so their feet won't go through the ground when they jump. Is it minor? YES. Is it indifferent to gameplay? YES. Should it be fixed? Again, YES. The idea for every good game developer is to fix all of the bugs, and not just fix the biggest ones and go "eh fuck this, they'd buy it anyway".

This particular animation glitch is probably not going to be “fixed”, and you know why? Because collision detection on 3D models is rarely 100% accurate in video games. You can see clipping like this in almost every 3D game made ever. It’s a common issue because creating collision logic that exactly matches the 3D models used (instead of just being a box around the object) is far too inefficient to be used in realtime.

This is an example of a minor “bug” that would slip past anywhere else in the games industry, but because you demand absolute perfection you’ve picked up on it as an example of JAW failing to live up to the original game.

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Imagine you've made a calculator app that works perfectly except when you try to multiply 15 by 3, then it crashes. Of course, you can multiply it without the app (it's 45, guys), but would you recommend it to anyone?

If NnT crashed when you rescued 15 Mudokons, then your comparison would be appropriate. An app with a fatal bug is not comparable to an animation glitch that appears on screen for less than a second.

Let me tell you something about my opinion: I’m not 100% convinced on NnT. There are a few changes that I’m not too keen on (birdportals.jpg), and some of the character animation on display in the early trailers didn’t impress me.

But the screenshots they’ve been putting out recently have shown me that they have absolutely nailed a lot of what I love about the original game – the lighting, the individuality of each location, the depth of the environment backgrounds, the creature designs, etc. I’m willing to give the game a shot based on that.

So while there are some things that haven’t 100% wowed me, I know enough about the development team to know that any changes we do see are most likely intentional — such as the bird portals — or are a result of legitimate limitations with their engine — such as clipping on some models. I know that they’re probably aware of the issues we spot and they’ll be fixing whatever they can.

What I am sick of is people on these forums nitpicking the most asinine little details they can find, and downplaying everything good we’re seeing to accentuate the things they don’t like – the wrong shade of green, the desert isn’t desert-y enough, this animation has a clipping error, etc. This game is being made for us, for fans of the original game, and yet threads like this — which should be celebrating what I think are some pretty damn good screenshots — instead have posts full of petty little snipes. It’s like a mini No Mutants Allowed, and frankly, I’m sick of it at this point.

MeechMunchie · #92 11-03-2013, 03:12 AM

I'm prepared to file the bird portals under "creative differences". I may not like it, but it's JAW's choice rather a fault. Which means literally my only issue with the game now is the un-moist eyeballs. Which is probably just a lighting thing anyway.

Well, we could complain about the logo's neck again but seriously who gives a fuck about that any more

If I had to pick a favourite thing about the game so far, it'd be the fidelity of Abe's walk SFX. It sounds exactly how a sweaty piece of meat peeling off hot metal should.

So what's going on with those end-of-game rewards? Wil mentioned that they weren't going to give out the same concept art again for the good ending. I hope they keep the bad ending genocide prizes, too.

Varrok · #93 11-03-2013, 03:54 AM

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How do you expect a small development team working on their first relatively large game to perfectly match every little detail of a game produced on a much larger budget by a much larger team, especially when they’re building it with a completely different engine and a completely different ruleset?

It's been quite a long time since AO got released, and you no longer need that enormous amount of money to make such game. I don't think that's a good excuse. There are many small studios that release well polished games, and JAW is making NnT on its own rules, they're not modifying the original game in any way.

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They’re still working on it. Of course they’re still working on it, game devs are notorious for working right up as close to the deadline as they can make it. Ever heard of crunch time?

That might be true, but as for now, JAW isn't exactly known for fixing everything before the game is released. We do have the grounds to be a bit worried.

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This particular animation glitch is probably not going to be “fixed”, and you know why? Because collision detection on 3D models is rarely 100% accurate in video games. You can see clipping like this in almost every 3D game made ever. It’s a common issue because creating collision logic that exactly matches the 3D models used (instead of just being a box around the object) is far too inefficient to be used in realtime.

My first thought was that it's not the problem with collision, but faulty animation in general, but as I took a closer look, it became less clear to me. Guess I'll have to wait for the release to be sure.

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This is an example of a minor “bug” that would slip past anywhere else in the games industry, but because you demand absolute perfection you’ve picked up on it as an example of JAW failing to live up to the original game.

These are promotional screenshots, there really aren't many out there (there are like 8 (plus trailer) of these on the official site), and don't tell me it's impossible for even a small group to take a quick look and realize the mudokon's foot is halfway through the ground. It's in the foreground, that's where you put most of your focus on.

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If NnT crashed when you rescued 15 Mudokons, then your comparison would be appropriate. An app with a fatal bug is not comparable to an animation glitch that appears on screen for less than a second.

That would make it a game-breaking bug (you can't 'skip' to 16 Mudokons). Sinking foot is not a game-breaking bug. I was only referring to a calculator that crashes at this one specific, known occasion, and nowhere else.

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Let me tell you something about my opinion: I’m not 100% convinced on NnT. There are a few changes that I’m not too keen on (birdportals.jpg), and some of the character animation on display in the early trailers didn’t impress me.

But the screenshots they've been putting out recently have shown me that they have absolutely nailed a lot of what I love about the original game – the lighting, the individuality of each location, the depth of the environment backgrounds, the creature designs, etc. I’m willing to give the game a shot based on that.

So while there are some things that haven’t 100% wowed me, I know enough about the development team to know that any changes we do see are most likely intentional — such as the bird portals — or are a result of legitimate limitations with their engine — such as clipping on some models. I know that they’re probably aware of the issues we spot and they’ll be fixing whatever they can.

What I am sick of is people on these forums nitpicking the most asinine little details they can find, and downplaying everything good we’re seeing to accentuate the things they don’t like – the wrong shade of green, the desert isn’t desert-y enough, this animation has a clipping error, etc. This game is being made for us, for fans of the original game, and yet threads like this — which should be celebrating what I think are some pretty damn good screenshots — instead have posts full of petty little snipes. It’s like a mini No Mutants Allowed, and frankly, I’m sick of it at this point.

Hey, I do love most of their work! Nitpicking is not necessarily a form of hate, and I'm not like "BIRDS PORTALS SUCK SO THE GAME SUCKS TOO",they do though... and Nepsotic, though he was too bold, nitpicks believing that they would give it an afterthought and change the things that bother him. And it's not only he who thinks the portals aren't quite fitting the game, I think it's most of the fans who spoke in this thread, so it might not be 100% true that we should unconditionally trust JAW in everything.

***Nate*** · #94 11-03-2013, 04:03 AM

The more I read this thread, the more I find myself turning in to OANST.

*lights bong*

Phylum · #95 11-03-2013, 04:06 AM

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It's been quite a long time since AO got released, and you no longer need that enormous amount of money to make such game. I don't think that's a good excuse. There are many small studios that release well polished games, and JAW is making NnT on its own rules, they're not modifying the original game in any way.

What does that last sentence even mean?

Making artistically rich games costs lots of money and isn't usually something that's done this well by small teams. Most of the things we've seen look fantastic. Some of it doesn't look fantastic. Moaning about it here isn't productive.

I'll agree that the foot-in-platform thing is pretty dodgy though.

Varrok · #96 11-03-2013, 04:22 AM

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What does that last sentence even mean?

I meant that it was their decision to make a game in 2,5 using a specific engine, toolset etc. so they should handle it well.

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Moaning about it here isn't productive.

Praising everything isn't productive. Criticizing and telling what's wrong with something is what leads to improvement. Also, where else should we 'moan'? I'm pretty sure some people from JAW read OWF

Crashpunk · #97 11-03-2013, 04:34 AM

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The more I read this thread, the more I find myself turning in to OANST.

*lights bong*

Let's not go too far Nate.

Manco · #98 11-03-2013, 05:22 AM

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It's been quite a long time since AO got released, and you no longer need that enormous amount of money to make such game. I don't think that's a good excuse. There are many small studios that release well polished games, and JAW is making NnT on its own rules, they're not modifying the original game in any way.

How many of those small studios build their games in 3D? A lot of small studios comparable to JAW generally make much smaller games, and very often build them in 2D.

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That might be true, but as for now, JAW isn't exactly known for fixing everything before the game is released. We do have the grounds to be a bit worried.

Comparing their efforts to port old console games to PC to building a brand new game with a multiplatform engine isn’t particularly fair.

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My first thought was that it's not the problem with collision, but faulty animation in general, but as I took a closer look, it became less clear to me. Guess I'll have to wait for the release to be sure.

Play any 3D game. Take a shot every time a 3D object clips into another object or piece of terrain.

Don’t actually do this, you’ll die of alcohol poisoning.

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These are promotional screenshots, there really aren't many out there (there are like 8 (plus trailer) of these on the official site), and don't tell me it's impossible for even a small group to take a quick look and realize the mudokon's foot is halfway through the ground. It's in the foreground, that's where you put most of your focus on.

The fact that there’s a very common graphical bug in a promotional screenshot has very little bearing on the quality of the game. At best it tells us that whoever published the screenshots missed that one detail.

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That would make it a game-breaking bug (you can't 'skip' to 16 Mudokons). Sinking foot is not a game-breaking bug. I was only referring to a calculator that crashes at this one specific, known occasion, and nowhere else.

Clipping is not a game-breaking bug, it’s a minor visual bug that’s common of all 3D games.

A calculator crashing on a specific function is a functionality-breaking bug, even if it’s unlikely to be experienced by a user. They’re not comparable.

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Hey, I do love most of their work! Nitpicking is not necessarily a form of hate, and I'm not like "BIRDS PORTALS SUCK SO THE GAME SUCKS TOO",they do though... and Nepsotic, though he was too bold, nitpicks believing that they would give it an afterthought and change the things that bother him. And it's not only he who thinks the portals aren't quite fitting the game, I think it's most of the fans who spoke in this thread, so it might not be 100% true that we should unconditionally trust JAW in everything.

You’re doing a pisspoor job of letting them know you love most of their work. Near enough every post you’ve made in this thread comes across negative as hell, even when you do have something nice to say. Nepsotic is the same.

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I meant that it was their decision to make a game in 2,5 using a specific engine, toolset etc. so they should handle it well.

And they haven’t? The only thing that’s come up is this foot you mentioned.

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Praising everything isn't productive. Criticizing and telling what's wrong with something is what leads to improvement. Also, where else should we 'moan'? I'm pretty sure some people from JAW read OWF

I’ll let you in on a little secret. Valuable criticism doesn’t come from just pointing out every minor flaw in a piece of work – that approach comes across as nitpicky and is generally quite demoralizing for the author.

Praise has an important role in criticism, because it helps the creator know what they’re doing right, and communicates positivity and encouragement.

For the JAW folks that do read OWF, how do you think it affects their work when they come in and see a bunch of posts that focus on the minor flaws and nothing else? If you were in that position, would it encourage you?

STM · #99 11-03-2013, 06:18 AM

Am I the only person that doesn't give a rat's arse about any of this shit? I just want to play the game already, looks all right to me so far. I've got so many more things to actually think about than 'what if the game is released and Abe's foot goes through the floor!?'

That's what gets me, how do you guys have enough time on your hands to worry about this shit?

Crashpunk · #**100** 11-03-2013, 08:04 AM

Like I said before.

The Oddworld Forums: Overly critical about the smallest details.

MeechMunchie · #**101** 11-03-2013, 08:42 AM

I think it's fair to say that after 8 years of praisng every aspect of the original Abe games, praising the exact same aspects for resembling those of their forebears might seem a bit redundant. It's the polite thing to do, however.

Jordan · #**102** 11-03-2013, 12:51 PM

I generally don't care that much, I just want to play the game. Waited long enough.

STM · #**103** 11-03-2013, 12:58 PM

There's the right spirit.

Nepsotic · #**104** 11-03-2013, 01:41 PM

The only reason I'm being so negative and overly-critical is because nobody else is. I could talk for hours about the good things and what a great job they're doing but that's what everyone else seems to be doing.
Difference doesn't equal bad, that's not what I was saying, but changing big things like the shade of green (and yes, it was big) is like taking part of the game's soul. Fuck, that's way deeper than I intended it to be.

Jordan · #**105** 11-03-2013, 02:11 PM

I don't care about people complaining about genuine, game-breaking things. A shade of green changes nothing!

Slog Bait · #**106** 11-03-2013, 02:44 PM

NO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND it changes everything

Scrabaniac · #**107** 11-03-2013, 02:57 PM

To cut a long story short, Lorne wouldn't have allowed JAW to remake this classic if he didn't trust them, but he does, and they know exactly what they are doing and I'm sure Lorne knows what's best. It has to be run past him before it gets published anyway so he would ask for changes if necessary. So please stop worrying about such minor things, I'm sure they are under control

Nepsotic · #**108** 11-03-2013, 03:01 PM

Maybe Lorne's vision isn't the same as the fans'.

Phylum · #**109** 11-03-2013, 03:18 PM

You're right. If Lorne doesn't agree with every nitpick this place can throw at him we should totally alienate ourselves from the series.

But seriously what are you actually trying to say there?

MeechMunchie · #**110** 11-03-2013, 03:54 PM

Wait, wait, wait.

Are we actually talking about what Nepsotic thinks? Like it's important?

Slog Bait · #**111** 11-03-2013, 04:37 PM

Was that really called for in the slightest

Would it kill you not to be a massive douche

MeechMunchie · #**112** 11-03-2013, 04:58 PM

Even if you like him, you can't deny it's odd that everyone dismisses everything he says apart from in this one thread.

Slog Bait · #**113** 11-03-2013, 05:29 PM

No, I don't find it odd. Something he said just so happened to spark a discussion, big fucking deal. What bothers me is how conversation was a thing that was happening and your immediate response was "why are you guys talking about something someone said like it matters"

Clearly it mattered to them if they sat there and had a full on discussion that stemmed from it

The more often you dismiss someone in a discussion, the more it's going to negatively affect them and their ability to participate and properly discuss something.

And he's not the only person I've seen people on here do that to.

I still don't see why you thought it necessary to make that comment. All that invites is more hostility and LORD KNOWS we don't need any more of that shit on the forum, much less in Odd Discussion, much less this thread. And, I wouldn't have said anything had you not said something similar to that in a different situation before. Whether I liked him or not, I would have still called you out on it.

MeechMunchie · #**114** 11-03-2013, 08:52 PM

Gee, lighten up.

Slog Bait · #**115** 11-03-2013, 08:59 PM

Current status: A literal feather

***Xavier*** · #**116** 11-03-2013, 11:06 PM

Wow some of you really need to calm down.

Personally I think both attitudes here are good for JAW. It's good for them to have some positive feedback and having some people showing either via comments or via videos that they appreciate the work they are doing. It's motivating stuff, and it can give them the motivation to make the game even better.

And on the other side, the game is not final yet, so it's okay that some people want to point out every little detail they think could be fixed/improved, because with some luck it actually will be improved if JAW sees that some people care about it and if time and budget allow it. This would make the game even better.

So respect each other's opinions. goddammit

Nepsotic · #**117** 11-03-2013, 11:08 PM

Thank you.

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You're right. If Lorne doesn't agree with every nitpick this place can throw at him we should totally alienate ourselves from the series.

But seriously what are you actually trying to say there?

I can't remember what this is off, but it works well. Someone makes a bit of art and drop a fag butt in it. Everyone loves this bit of art but then ten years later the artist comes along and pulls out the fag butt and everyone's all "Oi, what you doing? That's the best bit".

That's a really extreme example of what I'm trying to say. Maybe it's important to Lorne that that number of Slogs coming out of that one kennel stays at a hundred (which was way too much) but he couldn't give a shit about the Scrabania sky colour.
That's probably another extreme example but do you see my point.

Manco · #**118** 11-04-2013, 02:14 AM

I can see your point, but really I don’t think something like a specific shade of background color is a deal-breaker, be it green or desert.

Nepsotic · #**119** 11-04-2013, 02:28 AM

The background is just one example, and it's not a deal-breaker, but it'd nice to get it right.

Phylum · #**120** 11-04-2013, 02:58 AM

But that is where it gets tough. What is "right" and what is copying the original? If Lorne turns to Stew and says "dude, we need to lighten up that green" then he probably has a damn good reason for saying it.

We still don't know what the green is going to look like in game iirc because we EVENTUALLY figured out that photos of magazine prints aren't an accurate way of depicting colour

e: How much involvement does Lorne even have in this project by the way? Everything I said above would still apply if it was TGA (or whatever his name is) rather than Lorne.