Do you think God answers prayers? Or perhaps he gives people the opportunity to answer their own prayers. Example, "Hey God, wtf is up with Africa at the moment, all that plague and war and AIDS and crap, sort it out sharpish or your a bad guy!"
"Ok, fine let's see, I'll give them a new leader in Zimbabwe, a chance for change..."
"Hey God, what the heck, help Zimbabwe, the new leader is an arse how can you not answer their prayers, think of the children!"
"FACEPALM"
Deep down in your heart you know God exists, if you except it, life becomes easier for you! If you don't believe in God, why do you talk about him so much? Just face it, God probably doesn't believe in you either. If someone made religion bad for you atheists, they weren't real Christians. Archaeology proves the Bible is real, so does a banana! And anyway, if God revealed himself to you, why would we need faith. Ok, I'm almost out of annoying reasons for faith but I'm just gonna spew this muck from now on.
__________________
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Oh yeah, fair point. Maybe he was just tortured until he lost consciousness.
Do you think God answers prayers? Or perhaps he gives people the opportunity to answer their own prayers. Example, "Hey God, wtf is up with Africa at the moment, all that plague and war and AIDS and crap, sort it out sharpish or your a bad guy!"
"Ok, fine let's see, I'll give them a new leader in Zimbabwe, a chance for change..."
"Hey God, what the heck, help Zimbabwe, the new leader is an arse how can you not answer their prayers, think of the children!"
"FACEPALM"
It's nice to see that you have specific examples of what God has done for the world. And that we now know how God thinks and acts.
This totally blew my mind.
__________________
Wil siger (17:13):
Hey, I have massive nuts. :@
Do you think God answers prayers? Or perhaps he gives people the opportunity to answer their own prayers. Example, "Hey God, wtf is up with Africa at the moment, all that plague and war and AIDS and crap, sort it out sharpish or your a bad guy!"
"Ok, fine let's see, I'll give them a new leader in Zimbabwe, a chance for change..."
"Hey God, what the heck, help Zimbabwe, the new leader is an arse how can you not answer their prayers, think of the children!"
"FACEPALM"
1) This argument is bullshit because an all-powerful God would know which person would become a good leader.
2) Your argument can be simplified by replacing "God" with "random coincidence", which also makes it make more sense.
__________________
twitter (stream of thoughts) steam (games i never play)
Oddhunter, you are becoming something WoF only dreams of! I love it.
You do realize that God believes in free will, he won't choose anything for us, it's up to you, call it a birthday present. Why are you bitter? I feel prejudiced! I feel persecuted! I pity you all! I told you I'm keeping this up.
__________________
:
Oh yeah, fair point. Maybe he was just tortured until he lost consciousness.
ARGH! MY DAD WAS ABUSIVE! NOW I DON'T BELIEVE IN DADS! DADS HAVE NEVER EXISTED AND YOU'RE AN IDIOT FOR BELIEVING THAT THERE ARE DADS! ALL DADS ARE DISGUSTING! ARGH! DADS HAVE DONE EVERYTHING WRONG AND ARE THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL IN THE WORLD! ARGH! - If OANST felt about dads the way he did about Religion
__________________ I see you jockin' me.
Last edited by Mac Sirloin; 12-20-2010 at 05:33 PM..
Oddhunter, you are becoming something WoF only dreams of! I love it.
You do realize that God believes in free will, he won't choose anything for us, it's up to you, call it a birthday present. Why are you bitter? I feel prejudiced! I feel persecuted! I pity you all! I told you I'm keeping this up.
It's funny how he's supposed to have a plan for all of us then, isn't it? Apparantly, he's chosen for us our date of birth, date of death and our shoe size. Taking all this into consideration, this would lead me to believe that he has also planned where he wants us to be after death - tossed into Hell or offered a nice little spot in Heaven, which is apparantly dictated by our behaviour. Therefore, depending on where he wants me to end up, I could fuck up his plan by either behaving as he insists a good person does or by "sinning" without even knowing I was fucking up his plan. I can't imagine God creating an inconvenience like that for himself, so if God has a plan, I would imagine that it will all go as he intends, right down to the last detail (unless you consider that he has forever to pull off his plan in and so he might be gambling a bit to keep himself entertained - but I thought gambling was wrong?).
Another thing is that we don't truly have free will. Let's say God exists, even if we do precisely what we want, he's going to punish us for it by condemning us to a place of eternal torment.
If you don't mind me asking, what precisely are you keeping up?
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A man walks into a zoo. There's nothing there but one dog. It was a shih-tzu.
Agreed. I see no reason to continue this debate unless something catastrophically horrible is said about religion so STM out.
Well it's funny you should say that...
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I am trying to hold my own and restore some sense of respect that apparently someone once held.
On that count you have. As distinct from respect for beliefs and ideas, you understand (a topic I have written about before). But I am impressed that you met me and continue to do so despite it all. But I must say, it’s starting to take another downward turn.
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I'm sure you would, but this debate has (perhaps unfortunately) brought me to question over the last few days, some of the things I have always held closely as truth, the Ark for example, did Noah bring plants to the ship?bacteria? Virus?
I'm very happy to hear that you are questioning anything (my motto being "question everything") but I am disturbed to learn that this is even an issue for you. Noah's Ark contradicts everything we know about the world, and everything we know about the world proves that no such event occurred. No trace was left in the rocks. No interesting observation was made with the benefit of divine omniscience. “two of every animal, plus as many of each parasite as they can carry” for example. Population genetics makes the fate of the "saved" species a rather short and sad one, and the geographical distribution of species alone makes the whole tale exceedingly silly.
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If you are trying to destroy my faith in God or convert me to Atheism, perhaps you are taking a small victory but I hope it is not celebrated, it's a sad thing for some one to lose hope or stop believing in something they hold dear, not that I no longer believe in God.
As it is, no one converts to atheism, so much as they realise that that is what they are. The saddest thing I ever see in such people is the overwhelming sense of betrayal they feel toward those who have lied to them their entire lives. But the most frequent source of tears is when, having lost their blinkers, they discover the wonders of scientific discovery, and weep.
When you know the scientific understanding of the history of humanity, life, the Earth and the universe, no religious myth will ever hold a candle to it again. They are just so small, petty, and painfully human by comparison. Even if you still believe in your god, you will see that it is far grander than the pathetic little sex-obsessed misogynist the fundamentalists and creationist hold it to be.
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I don't think you want me to answer this so as to see what a decent reply will be but merely because you think I have no answer and hope I called your bluff as it were.
Well, obviously, I have been brought up as a Christian, to see that God is true and his teachings have corrected me and guided me through my early life. Moulded me into a semi-decent person even if I fail to keep all his laws. Perhaps if my parents were Hindu I would be a Hindu but...perhaps if this were the case I would instantly convert to Christianity the one truth apostolic faith. Of course this is a pointless and trivial pursuit because it touches into fantasy and mindless speculation, not religion or science.
Your children, I am sure, are far more impressionable than you, if I was to take control of them (assuming they are still relatively young) I could indoctrinate them with God but maybe it would be better to allow them to reach an older age and give them a Bible..."Is this possibly how life is, how it is made and what lies ahead for you," I was never given the option to make the decision for myself, maybe this is a curse but to me, it was the most beautiful gift, the chance to have the worship of my God installed in my mind, so that I don't have to make the decision for myself...this may sound extremely idiotic to you but no, I prefer to have been indoctrinated and by Lord I would not have it any other way.
I did want to hear you answer honestly, so in that sense the answer I wanted. It was also what I was expecting, and by Jove, is it precisely the answer I didn’t want to hear. Not from any one with whom I can stand in solidarity as a fellow human being. You’re not making the earning of that respect very easy on yourself.
:
Please make this case, I am intrigued.
All righty. Let’s start at the beginning, with the situation we find ourselves in. Gven what we have learned about the world and our part in it today, this is what you have to believe to be a theist. An Abrahamic theist, Christian at the very least.
The length of time our species has existed is still somewhat disputed by scientists, as is the way of things, though we have the ballpark estimate. Richard Dawkins proposes as much as 200,000 years. Francis Collins, who directed the human genome project and is a Christian in the CS Lewis mould, puts it at 100,000 years since our species of human separated from the previous. I’ll take 100,000 as the conservative estimate, it suits my purposes here quite sufficiently. For one hundred thousand years our species is born, as a primate species, lived in the most abject horror, as do all species in nature. More than half of all children died in birth or a few days afterward, as did many mothers. Infant mortality among those who survived that was extraordinarily high. Women hardly ever experienced periods, they were either pregnant or nursing (or starving), bound to an annual animal cycle of reproduction to which many who call themselves religious today would see them returned. Disease was rife; no one knew what caused it or any of the other horrors which plagued humanity. Fights over land, food, women. Terrifying. For the first few tens of thousands of years life expectancy was perhaps 25-30 years on average.
Through all this, heaven watches with folded arms, indifferent.
Then around 3-4,000 years ago, at last, heaven decides that enough’s enough, it’s time to intervene. But only in the really barbaric and illiterate parts of the Middle-East. Not in China, or Greece, where people can read, can write, can think, no! In the most barbaric and backward parts of the Middle-East it is decided “no, no, this can’t go on for another hundred millennia!” And appears before stupefied, ignorant peasants. It'll take thousands of years more to filter out to the rest of the world. And heaven decides that the best way to do so is through plagues and human sacrifice and mass-murder “and if that doesn’t make them behave morally, we just don’t know what does!” This is the heaven we find ruling over us. This simply cannot be believed by any thinking, moral person. And I’ve only just set the scene!
Here is a god who minds what you eat, minds how often you pray, minds who you love and how, minds who you have sex with and how (this part takes up quite a lot of its attention), minds that and what part of your penis or clitoris you have sawn off (or have sawn off for you), can convict you of thought crime (thought crime!) in your sleep as readily as while you are awake. Who wants this to be true?
This is a god that permits the concept of original sin in the world: sin original to our species. Heritable guilt, passed on from father to son, mother two daughter. No moral person can fail to be disgusted by this very proposition. We are created sick and commanded to be well! That should have you recoiling in revulsion. But there is a cure! The Nazarene, Jesus Christ, meek and mild (with whom the concept of hell is finally introduced to Judean mythology). Jesus Christ, who comes to Earth to spread his word, of which that which is not plagiarized from better thinkers who preceded him is questionable at best, horrible at worst (“take no thought for the morrow.” Fucking hell!). Just let Jesus into your life and you will be saved, for the low low price of your critical faculties. Who wants this to be true?
Sent by god, is god, according to Christian doctrine, to relieve the original sin of mankind, through the most vile, barbaric, primitive, brutal and roundabout way that the omnipotent creator of the universe could think of.
Vicarious redemption. This is revolting to me, and it should be to everyone. I could pay your debt if I was rich enough. If I loved you enough I could even serve your prison sentence if I was allowed, or even take your place on the gallows as has happened on a few famous occasions. But I cannot take your responsibility from you, I cannot absolve you of the sins you committed and am now paying for, for you. I certainly cannot forgive wrongs that which you did to another, and be very suspicious of anyone who claims that they can. It is immoral, and you have no right to ask it of me, of anyone. It is more than can be promised and more than should be promised. You cannot shed your responsibility or wipe your slate completely clean: the whole basis of morality requires that you face it and take it upon yourself. Nonetheless Christianity offers this repugnant concept of vicarious redemption as its central tenet and promise, celebrating one of the immoral ideas I’ve ever heard as the greatest gift to humanity. I can see it this way, I know others like me who see it this way. To his credit, CS Lewis saw it this way. He was a Protestant, but in this debate he is one of yours. He writes on this very subject in his book, Mere Christianity:
:
…Among the…Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was God. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time. Now let us get this clear. Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of God, or one with God: there would be nothing very odd about it. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of God. God, in their language, meant the Being outside the world Who had made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips.
One part of the claim tends to slip past us unnoticed because we have heard it so often that we no longer see what it amounts to. I mean the claim to forgive sins: any sins. Now unless the speaker is God, this is really so preposterous as to be comic. We can all understand how a man forgives offences against himself. You tread on my toe and I forgive you, you steal my money and I forgive you. But what should we make of a man, himself unrobbed and untrodden on, who announced that he forgave you for treading on other men’s toes and stealing other men’s money? Asinine fatuity is the kindest description we should give of his conduct. Yet this is what Jesus did. He told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured. He unhesitatingly behaved as if He was the party chiefly concerned; the person chiefly offended in all offences. This makes sense only if He really was the God whose laws are broken and whose love is wounded in every sin. In the mouth of any speaker who is not God, these words would imply what I can only regard as a silliness and conceit unrivalled by any other character in history.
Yet (and this is the strange, significant thing) even His enemies, when they read the Gospels, do not usually get the impression of silliness and conceit. Still less do unprejudiced readers. Christ says that He is ‘humble and meek’ and we believe Him; not noticing that, if He were merely a man, humility and meekness are the very last characteristics we could attribute to some of His sayings.
And of those who cannot believe that Jesus was the son of god or otherwise divine, yet still a great moral teacher, Lewis is properly scornful:
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I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
And poor Lewis, he has argued so well up until there, but he never could complete a syllogism.
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Since I don’t think he was the devil of hell I have to conclude he was the Son of God.
At least Lewis wasn’t making it easy on himself, but you don’t have to be a regular Wings of Fire to see the gaping hole in that logic.
And I haven’t even touched on the method of the redemption.
Human.
Sacrifice.
I hope that that is perfectly clear to everyone, in no uncertain terms, that this is what this is. Scapegoating. Throwing your sins onto an animal, and then you kill it. This is an old and primitive practice from the Middle-East and it does not deserve the attention of civilized and thoughtful people. Worse than that, it is a human being, whom we are told went willingly to this fate with the immoral aims I have just discussed in mind. Then we have to be told that this torture and human sacrifice of somebody, of which were any of us present at the time would have been morally obliged to try to prevent (but no sacrifice, no salvation!), which I did not ask for, over which I had no control on account of having occurred (so we are told) thousands of years previously, commits me. And I have no choice in the matter. None. The most disgusting thing we could imagine, and it was done in our name, for our benefit. Who wants this to be true?
So, now what do we do about it? It is “kindly” offered to us. I give all these objections: I don’t want it, I never did, I never will, I do not want to share responsibility for it. I think it’s highly implausible, I don’t believe the story, I didn’t ask for it, I don’t think it does or should absolve me of my sins, particularly since many of then, particularly original sin, I do not agree with. I do not recognize the charges against me. Having considered it, I say, I’d rather carry on living and leading a decent life without it, thanks. But thanks for asking.
“Oh no, sorry, you didn’t hear us right the first time. It wasn’t an offer. You refuse it on pain of death! Eternal torment and misery!”
…
Excuse me, I won’t be talked to in that tone of voice. I don’t quite know why, there must be something about me, that simply will not tolerate it, and I’m sure I’m not the only one here who shares this response. What was that? I’m not free to decline this offer? You’re making me an offer I literally cannot refuse? You’ve given me free will but no choice? Is that a threat!? You’re telling me that if I turn down this lamb’s blood in which I’m supposed to be washed saying “sorry, but I don’t think it will clean me”, “well that means an eternity of torture, you know! I hope you’ve taken that into account before you consider our offer of eternal love.”
No, I won’t have it. Who wants this to be true?
But suppose I take this offer. What awaits me then? Well I’ve read Revelation 4 and so on, I know perfectly well what the Christian view of heaven is. Singing praises to god, all day, every day, 24/7 worship at his feet for eternity. Hold on- I thought that by accepting this offer I would avoid eternal torture and misery? What sort of cosmic horror is this god? Who wants this to be true?
Everlasting praise. Can you imagine? Nobody can, of course, but we can see an approximation of it on Earth today. North Korea.
I’ve resisted using the term up until now, but finally I can. The Christian universe and afterlife is a Celestial North Korea. In North Korea the only duty, job and right of the people is to eternally praise the divine Dear Leader and the dead President-For-Ever, the divine Great Leader. It is a life of constant grovelling and misery and fear and praise and thanks for the tiny handouts that you get. It is impossible to truly describe the nothingness of the life of the North Korean. They are trapped, they cannot get out. The borders are guarded, and they will shoot.
But at least you can die, and leave North Korea. A small blessing that is not afforded by the Celestial Dear Leader. In this religious totalitarianism of the purest kind there is no escape. It is absolute, it is complete, it is utter, and it is horrifying. HP Lovecraft has nothing on this. Who wants it to be true?
Who, though? Who wants there to be no privacy anywhere, at home, at work, with the one who love, not even in your own skull? Who wants to be watched and cared for by an infantalising supernatural father, forever, who will never let you grow, never let you free, and never even die? Who wants to live by bizarre rules and laws that rarely even reflect the morality we know innate in all of us, that even the faithful, that even you, here, in this thread, have questioned and found inscrutable and nonsensical? Who wants this? Who wants any of this? Who could?
I’ll tell you who. A slave. It takes a slave mentality to want this, a willing serf and thrall who can mistake control for love, jealously for protection, wrath for justice. It requires that we be servile, surrender our independence, love one whom we fear, and try as I might, I find it very difficult to respect one who does. Certainly not this part of them, at least.
No. I say it freely: “Non serviam!” I am not a slave, I don’t want that, I will. Not. Serve.
How fortunate it is then, how wonderful, that there is no reason to believe that any of it is true whatsoever. None at all. The evidence in its favour remains, as always, nil. Theists still have all their work ahead of them.
you dicks still arguing over this bullshit? it'll never end. there will always be those who fervently believe in god's existence, and there will always be those who stubbornly deny it. this must be the umpteenth "IS GOD REAL OR NOT?" thread and its always the same. boring fucking pointless bullshit that goes on and on and on and fucking on.
i'd rather discuss whether Bigfoot really does have a foot-long cock or not.
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Well it's funny you should say that...
On that count you have. As distinct from respect for beliefs and ideas, you understand (a topic I have written about before). But I am impressed that you met me and continue to do so despite it all. But I must say, it’s starting to take another downward turn.
I'm very happy to hear that you are questioning anything (my motto being "question everything") but I am disturbed to learn that this is even an issue for you. Noah's Ark contradicts everything we know about the world, and everything we know about the world proves that no such event occurred. No trace was left in the rocks. No interesting observation was made with the benefit of divine omniscience. “two of every animal, plus as many of each parasite as they can carry” for example. Population genetics makes the fate of the "saved" species a rather short and sad one, and the geographical distribution of species alone makes the whole tale exceedingly silly.
As it is, no one converts to atheism, so much as they realise that that is what they are. The saddest thing I ever see in such people is the overwhelming sense of betrayal they feel toward those who have lied to them their entire lives. But the most frequent source of tears is when, having lost their blinkers, they discover the wonders of scientific discovery, and weep.
When you know the scientific understanding of the history of humanity, life, the Earth and the universe, no religious myth will ever hold a candle to it again. They are just so small, petty, and painfully human by comparison. Even if you still believe in your god, you will see that it is far grander than the pathetic little sex-obsessed misogynist the fundamentalists and creationist hold it to be.
I did want to hear you answer honestly, so in that sense the answer I wanted. It was also what I was expecting, and by Jove, is it precisely the answer I didn’t want to hear. Not from any one with whom I can stand in solidarity as a fellow human being. You’re not making the earning of that respect very easy on yourself.
All righty. Let’s start at the beginning, with the situation we find ourselves in. Gven what we have learned about the world and our part in it today, this is what you have to believe to be a theist. An Abrahamic theist, Christian at the very least.
The length of time our species has existed is still somewhat disputed by scientists, as is the way of things, though we have the ballpark estimate. Richard Dawkins proposes as much as 200,000 years. Francis Collins, who directed the human genome project and is a Christian in the CS Lewis mould, puts it at 100,000 years since our species of human separated from the previous. I’ll take 100,000 as the conservative estimate, it suits my purposes here quite sufficiently. For one hundred thousand years our species is born, as a primate species, lived in the most abject horror, as do all species in nature. More than half of all children died in birth or a few days afterward, as did many mothers. Infant mortality among those who survived that was extraordinarily high. Women hardly ever experienced periods, they were either pregnant or nursing (or starving), bound to an annual animal cycle of reproduction to which many who call themselves religious today would see them returned. Disease was rife; no one knew what caused it or any of the other horrors which plagued humanity. Fights over land, food, women. Terrifying. For the first few tens of thousands of years life expectancy was perhaps 25-30 years on average.
Through all this, heaven watches with folded arms, indifferent.
Then around 3-4,000 years ago, at last, heaven decides that enough’s enough, it’s time to intervene. But only in the really barbaric and illiterate parts of the Middle-East. Not in China, or Greece, where people can read, can write, can think, no! In the most barbaric and backward parts of the Middle-East it is decided “no, no, this can’t go on for another hundred millennia!” And appears before stupefied, ignorant peasants. And it decides that the best way to do so is through plagues and human sacrifice and mass-murder “and if that doesn’t make them behave morally, we just don’t know what does!” This is the heaven we find ruling over us. This simply cannot be believed by any thinking, moral person. And I’ve only just set the scene!
Here is a god who minds what you eat, minds how often you pray, minds who you love and how, minds who you have sex with and how (this part takes up quite a lot of its attention), minds that and what part of your penis or clitoris you have sawn off (or have sawn off for you), can convict you of thought crime (thought crime!) in your sleep as readily as while you are awake. Who wants this to be true?
This is a god that permits the concept of original sin in the world: sin original to our species. Heritable guilt, passed on from father to son, mother two daughter. No moral person can fail to be disgusted by this very proposition. We are created sick and commanded to be well! That should have you recoiling in revulsion. But there is a cure! The Nazarene, Jesus Christ, meek and mild (with whom the concept of hell is finally introduced to Judean mythology). Jesus Christ, who comes to Earth to spread his word, of which that which is not plagiarized from better thinkers who preceded him is questionable at best, horrible at worst (“take no thought for the morrow.” Fucking hell!). Just let Jesus into your life and you will be saved, for the low low price of your critical faculties. Who wants this to be true?
Sent by god, is god, according to Christian doctrine, to relieve the original sin of mankind, through the most vile, barbaric, primitive, brutal and roundabout way that the omnipotent creator of the universe could think of.
Vicarious redemption. This is revolting to me, and it should be to everyone. I could pay your debt if I was rich enough. If I loved you enough I could even serve your prison sentence if I was allowed, or even take your place on the gallows as has happened on a few famous occasions. But I cannot take your responsibility from you, I cannot absolve you of the sins you committed and am now paying for, for you. I certainly cannot forgive wrongs that which you did to another, and be very suspicious of anyone who claims that they can. It is immoral, and you have no right to ask it of me, of anyone. It is more than can be promised and more than should be promised. You cannot shed your responsibility or wipe your slate completely clean: the whole basis of morality requires that you face it and take it upon yourself. Nonetheless Christianity offers this repugnant concept of vicarious redemption as its central tenet and promise, celebrating one of the immoral ideas I’ve ever heard as the greatest gift to humanity. I can see it this way, I know others like me who see it this way. To his credit, CS Lewis saw it this way. He was a Protestant, but in this debate he is one of yours. He writes on this very subject in his book, Mere Christianity:
And of those who cannot believe that Jesus was the son of god or otherwise divine, yet still a great moral teacher, Lewis is properly scornful:
And poor Lewis, he has argued so well up until there, but he never could complete a syllogism.
At least Lewis wasn’t making it easy on himself, but you don’t have to be a regular Wings of Fire to see the gaping hole in that logic.
And I haven’t even touched on the method of the redemption.
Human.
Sacrifice.
I hope that that is perfectly clear to everyone, in no uncertain terms, that this is what this is. Scapegoating. Throwing your sins onto an animal, and then you kill it. This is an old and primitive practice from the Middle-East and it does not deserve the attention of civilized and thoughtful people. Worse than that, it is a human being, whom we are told went willingly to this fate with the immoral aims I have just discussed in mind. Then we have to be told that this torture and human sacrifice of somebody, of which were any of us present at the time would have been morally obliged to try to prevent (but no sacrifice, no salvation!), which I did not ask for, over which I had no control on account of having occurred (so we are told) thousands of years previously, commits me. And I have no choice in the matter. None. The most disgusting thing we could imagine, and it was done in our name, for our benefit. Who wants this to be true?
So, now what do we do about it? It is “kindly” offered to us. I give all these objections: I don’t want it, I never did, I never will, I do not want to share responsibility for it. I think it’s highly implausible, I don’t believe the story, I didn’t ask for it, I don’t think it does or should absolve me of my sins, particularly since many of then, particularly original sin, I do not agree with. I do not recognize the charges against me. Having considered it, I say, I’d rather carry on living and leading a decent life without it, thanks. But thanks for asking.
“Oh no, sorry, you didn’t hear us right the first time. It wasn’t an offer. You refuse it on pain of death! Eternal torment and misery!”
…
Excuse me, I won’t be talked to in that tone of voice. I don’t quite know why, there must be something about me, that simply will not tolerate it, and I’m sure I’m not the only one here who shares this response. What was that? I’m not free to decline this offer? You’re making me an offer I literally cannot refuse? You’ve given me free will but no choice? Is that a threat!? You’re telling me that if I turn down this lamb’s blood in which I’m supposed to be washed saying “sorry, but I don’t think it will clean me”, “well that means an eternity of torture, you know! I hope you’ve taken that into account before you consider our offer of eternal love.”
No, I won’t have it. Who wants this to be true?
But suppose I take this offer. What awaits me then? Well I’ve read Revelation 4 and so on, I know perfectly well what the Christian view of heaven is. Singing praises to god, all day, every day, 24/7 worship at his feet for eternity. Hold on- I thought that by accepting this offer I would avoid eternal torture and misery? What sort of cosmic horror is this god? Who wants this to be true?
Everlasting praise. Can you imagine? Nobody can, of course, but we can see an approximation of it on Earth today. North Korea.
I’ve resisted using the term up until now, but finally I can. The Christian universe and afterlife is a Celestial North Korea. In North Korea the only duty, job and right of the people is to eternally praise the divine Dear Leader and the dead President-For-Ever, the divine Great Leader. It is a life of constant grovelling and misery and fear and praise and thanks for the tiny handouts that you get. It is impossible to truly describe the nothingness of the life of the North Korean. They are trapped, they cannot get out. The borders are guarded, and they will shoot.
But at least you can die, and leave North Korea. A small blessing that is not afforded by the Celestial Dear Leader. In this religious totalitarianism of the purest kind there is no escape. It is absolute, it is complete, it is utter, and it is horrifying. HP Lovecraft has nothing on this. Who wants it to be true?
Who, though? Who wants there to be no privacy anywhere, at home, at work, with the one who love, not even in your own skull? Who wants to be watched and cared for by an infantalising supernatural father, forever, who will never let you grow, never let you free, and never even die? Who wants to live by bizarre rules and laws that rarely even reflect the morality we know innate in all of us, that even the faithful, that even you, here, in this thread, have questioned and found inscrutable and nonsensical? Who wants this? Who wants any of this? Who could?
I’ll tell you who. A slave. It takes a slave mentality to want this, a willing serf and thrall who can mistake control for love, jealously for protection, wrath for justice. It requires that we be servile, surrender our independence, love one whom we fear, and try as I might, I find it very difficult to respect one who does. Certainly not this part of them, at least.
No. I say it freely: “Non serviam!” I am not a slave, I don’t want that, I will. Not. Serve.
How fortunate it is then, how wonderful, that there is no reason to believe that any of it is true whatsoever. None at all. The evidence in its favour remains, as always, nil. Theists still have all their work ahead of them.
Non seviam!
Jesus Christ, BM. you just know he isn't going to read all of that, let alone understand it. i believe it was you that said "Never argue with an idiot, they will only drag you down to their level and beat you." now look at you.
for the record: i don't even give a shit whether there is a god or not. i respect those who believe there is because i could never have that much faith, and i don't feel the need to kick them in the balls and smother them with my opinions on the matter.
Oh, it does. By comparing the concept of endless paradise to North Korea. Because as we all know every single religious person is an accursed zealot.
Did I not make it clear that that was the context of the Christian dogma itself? Christ, have you even read Revelation? You can believe in Heaven as endless paradise if you wish, but it is not the heaven described in the Bible. Which is fine, but don't call it Christian. I don't even know where that last sentence came from.
A man who claims to be able to forgive the harm you do to other people on their behalf and claims to be meek and mild despite this claim (not no mention nonsense like "take no thought for the morrow") is either mad or evil. No one has that right. Lewis proposes that it would be fine if he were god, but I do not grant god that right either.
No I did read it all, I did, I wouldn't have BM write all that for my account for me to turn around and say tl;dr, that's just rude. I can see were your coming from BM and if you want my seriousness again, even though I wanted out then understand that I know how you can see things this way, perhaps one can compare NK to Heaven but I can't, I couldn't do that to a God who has pushed me and helped me on the path I am today, and besides, you make out every religious follower is a zealot like Kim Jong is power crazy. If you want a really sad part of my life I nearly died before my second birthday but on Christmas Day of all days, I began to recover in hospital after all else failed. That to me is a miracle but I don't think that should be a part of my argument. Just know I am forever grateful for that even if it has taken me so long to realize.
I've been told to shut up but I will not sit by and watch this Nate, infract me again but I will not be quiet.
Oh and on another note, BM, I think you should write a dystopian novel, I would definitely buy it!
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Oh yeah, fair point. Maybe he was just tortured until he lost consciousness.
