RELIGION TOPIC (Fi-nal-ly) -

Abeguy · #31 01-25-2006, 03:41 PM

okay, Havoc, is it? you need to read between the lines and also whats written in black and white in front of all of our faces, I don't know exactly where it is because the bible is so vastly huge I often forget where I find the most amazing stuff. but I did read somewhere which gives reference that the descendent of Ham or one of the sons of Noah are the ones that migrated to Africa and are now the African Americans.
I'd write more but I need to go

used:) · #32 01-25-2006, 04:07 PM

Well, back to topic, and bnot bitching about what yins said.

The stupidest religion I have EVER seen has got to be scientology. What a bunch of freaks. "I have body thetans all over me! I wonder what my OT level is!" Who the fuck bases a faith off some two bit science fiction story? Whats worse are the followers. Nothing but a bunch of dimwitted celebrities only being used by the religion for their money.

Dino · #33 01-25-2006, 04:17 PM

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could you make it a sticky maybe?

Dream on Abeguy.

As for the topic at hand, recently I have concluded that religion can ultimately only offer fascile and unsatisfying answers for things that are explained with more truth and majesty by science. Also the bigoted nature of religions means that when they come with any degree of political influence they cause all sorts of problems. For this reason I believe that religion should be banned or at least heavily controlled.

I happen to hold the belief that once a religion affects the life and rights of a person who does not believe in it, then it has already forfeited it's right to exist. Why for instance should a religion factor into an ethical debate involving medical procedures that would only be administered to people who did not believe in that one religion anyway, medical procedures that might save lives? The answer is it should not. Religion, if it should be allowed at all, should operate within the boundaries of, and at the mercy of, the law, a higher atheist power, which is rightfully above the power and influence of religion, which should rightfully have no power and influence as it is merely a personal lifestyle choice.

One major argument for religion being a part of law and ethical influence which I find to be fundamentally flawed, is that without religious guidance we would have no concept of right and wrong. Yet even monkeys have been shown to have a basic concept of right and wrong, and monkeys have no concept of religion. Therefore, non-religious groups of people are just as capable of getting along with one another in a lawful manner as religious groups of people are, because the concept of right and wrong is something far older than religion, and in this instance science has proven that to be the case.

I've found that the harder and closer I look at religion, the more I begin to see the flaws.

used:) · #34 01-25-2006, 04:50 PM

Or maybe people could just become more tolerant and accepting of others' differences. [/expecting the obvious][/where is the love?]

MojoMan220 · #35 01-25-2006, 06:56 PM

My major issue with organized religion is that in many cases it requires you to abandon basic logic and the proven scientific studies of absolute geniuses, for the word of books that were written thousands of years ago. I beleive that these texts were created to help people cope with the simple fact that no matter what happens, you're gonna die. They also do a fairly good job of keeping people in line.

There may or may not be a higher power, whatever the case, I have no way of knowing for sure, so agnosticism is my stance on the whole subject.

mitsur · #36 01-25-2006, 07:03 PM

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They also do a fairly good job of keeping people in line.

Not to mention you can make them all vote in a 'block' for you

Adder · #37 01-26-2006, 01:24 AM

Well, since my beliefs are unknown to me as yet I'll post what I know and have heard.

1.

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We {biologists} now belive life does not come spontaniously from non-life

"Introduction to cell biology" at DCU, year 1, semester 1.

Inteligent design is a good theory. Evolution is a good theory. Creationism is a good theory (see #2). However, even science does not know where it all began. How cells started is still all theory. Once they got started it's easy to explain dyverse life on earth using ideas like evolution. IE makes sence and can be convincing. Life is damn complex and defies most Chemisty ideals. I would side with evolution, probably because I heard about it first.
However, science has no proof about how life began. There is room for a god.

2.
Science/Physics does not know what happened at the big bang, or before it. There is still room for a god/higher power. Remember, a lot of science is still theory since it cannot be proved conclusivly. It is seen to work and be true, but that is not proof.

3.
Atheism (the belief there is nothing beyond the physical existance) is a religios belief in itself, going by definition. In fact, if you expand it, it can be viewed just like any other belief. Believing in Everything leads to a belief in the beyond {Everything is a very big word, bigger than Universe}. If you can grasp everything affecting everything on a physical level, then you've got a deep understanding.

4.
I was raised Catholic Christian. "The Da Vinci Code", from what I've heard and seen {haven't read it yet} is complete nonsence. It even messes up something as eligent as Phi {a ratio/number that deeper understanding of is explored in some religions}. It misses the point of "The secret dossies" {tracing a priest back to the local kings}. I will watch the movie, and then make a more informed decision, but from what I've seen it really can't stand by itself.

5.
MojoMan220, I partly agree with you. Following religion to the point where you no longer think about actions but just do them to follow is very dangerous. Ultimitly it is down to individuals to realise they are individuals. Religious wars or crusades NOT justifiable.
However, this does not mean religion itself is bad. It is just that people practice it in foolish ways, or twist it for self-gain. This is where it becomes, in my view, wrong.

6.
This was all my opinion, with the exeption of athists being religious which was debated on another forum I browse. I feel I failed to get this point across effectively.

Havoc · #38 01-26-2006, 01:37 AM

I totaly agree with Dino here. Religion should be a personal lifestyle, not having anything to do with a law. Then again that would make it impossible for a lot of politicians to do their job because most (especialy in America) base their decisions on their faith.
So the next best thing, which I more then totaly agree with, is banning religion all together. Or at least to a degree where it doesn't influance the world anymore. No more religion in politics, no more religion on TV, ect.
Anti religion? Yes. Better for the world? Yes. Doable? No...
Trying to ban religion now, right in the middle of a war where the entire world prays to whoever they want to pray to, and America gets more enemies by the minute... No, banning religion would lead to riots. They tried to do a similar thing in French schools, and we all know what happend there.

As for religion deciding right from wrong, I think it influances us to a certain degree. Monkeys still have a majority of instinct, telling them what to do and what not to do. Where us humans have a majority of logical thinking.
If the bible wasn't around to tell everyone killing someone is wrong, surely we wouldn't kill everyone we see, but you can be damn straight that it wouldn't carry high penalties or no penaltie at all, because it is not conciderd wrong.
Same goes for the homosexual thing. Homosexualy (same goes for pretty much every other sexual orientation there is) would not have been hated at all, people would not have been killed, tortured and burned alive, if the bible wouldn't have been around to say homosexuality is wrong. In fact, if the bible would have said it was okay, then it would be broadly excepted.
I do believe the bible influances the law to a degree where it influances everyone, including people who arn't religious, and that right there is wrong. Religion should be kept to yourself, and not be pushed onto others.

Now, for your entertainment, or not. A little clip about religion. Be warned though, it's heavily anti christian, so if you think it will offend you then just don't watch it.

http://www.abum.com/show/489/858275079.wmv

Adder · #39 01-26-2006, 01:47 AM

Again, I cannot recall where in the bible anything anti-homosexual is said.

I know some religious groups are horribly against it, but I cannot recall where it says why.

I think religion is needed. People need to be able to belive and belive in public. It is wrong to hide beleifs. I know the british army/navy has it's first (recognised) satanist. The recruit, I believe, campained so that he would not be discriminated religiously and should have the right to read his satanic bible in public while onboard.

To use another quote: "Your rights end where mine begin".
You cannot say "you cannot believe that". This is what religious leaders (the ones I don't like) will try to force you. By removing religion / promoting anti-religion you are doing the same thing.

It is unjust to prevent people worshiping. Is it wrong? I don't know.
However, Law protects freedom of religious beliefs. (And if it doesn't, I believe it should)

Döbblyüw · #40 01-26-2006, 08:45 AM

Aight! I'm Agnostic. I believe that there is a force in the universe that presides over us. But I don't sacrifice or worship to it. Also the bible is nothing more than a mistranslation of the crossing scriptures written by the phaenecians when they were visited by the Model (i think that's what it was called...) from the planet of the crossing a planet that orbits the sun's partner star Nemesis.

OANST · #41 01-26-2006, 09:16 AM

Yeah.........that made sense.

Havoc · #42 01-26-2006, 10:17 AM

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Yeah.........that made sense.

Word... ... Wait what? We're not talking about science fiction movies, dublyiya...

Döbblyüw · #43 01-26-2006, 10:27 AM

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Word... ... Wait what? We're not talking about science fiction movies, dublyiya...

I know that...

look here for more info... that's just one of the sites...

For more info just Google Nibiru, Marduk, or Planet X

Nepharski · #44 01-26-2006, 12:13 PM

I'm staying out of this and every other morality thread here. Nobody want's another 6 month hiatus.

Leto · #45 01-26-2006, 12:31 PM

Any thread about sexuality or religion gets to two pages, easy. Real origional, Abeguy, real origional.

Not even bringing new light onto anything.

Adder · #46 01-26-2006, 01:03 PM

Nepharski and Super Munch, please don't spam. There's no point to what you said. It doesn't contribute to the thread.

Döbblyüw...

While I don't want to shoot down your beliefs, most alien theories do not hold much weight globaly (that doesn't mean they're wrong, they just aren't believed.)

That artical on Planet X raises a LOT of questions. The idea it was "planet 10" would have been obvious from translation (roman->decimal).
Also, there are countless satalites orbiting the Sun. Including Pluto as a planet would mean there are at least 10 (i believe the figure would be closer to 11).

Döbblyüw · #47 01-26-2006, 02:11 PM

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Nepharski and Super Munch, please don't spam. There's no point to what you said. It doesn't contribute to the thread.

Döbblyüw...

While I don't want to shoot down your beliefs, most alien theories do not hold much weight globaly (that doesn't mean they're wrong, they just aren't believed.)

That artical on Planet X raises a LOT of questions. The idea it was "planet 10" would have been obvious from translation (roman->decimal).
Also, there are countless satalites orbiting the Sun. Including Pluto as a planet would mean there are at least 10 (i believe the figure would be closer to 11).

Well any theory can be debated... even this threads ideas are debatable. I mean if so many different religions have so many different beliefs and these beliefs can counteract another belief that would positively have to mean that either everyone's belief is wrong or that somehow each one has a loophole that can tie them all together or that only one is right... I don't know?

oddguy · #48 01-26-2006, 05:15 PM

In the past I believed heavily in religion...

now I really don't know if there is a God or not. The conclusion I come to is just to be a good person. If there is a God, I should end up in a good place when I die. If not...well, I died a nice guy.

-oddguy

Abeguy · #49 01-26-2006, 05:26 PM

Oddguy, Doing Good deeds alone will not get you into heaven even if there is a God

and all you atheists will attack that saying "Oh, more weakness in the bible!" "More Proof"
No, you'd get it if you read the bible. Know whats funny, some atheists know more about the bible then the religous people. Ironic eh?

used:) · #50 01-26-2006, 06:36 PM

Not really, in different terms that is. People tend to want to learn more about the enemy their facing, especially if a debate comes up about it.

Abeguy · #51 01-26-2006, 06:40 PM

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I believe that religion should be banned or at least heavily controlled.

Well Dino, we should ban atheism, you're reaction is the same as mine.
How bout you all ban together and form a new country, an atheist country, call it Ahthea and live in harmony in the mass destruction all around you, it shall be a country of mass drug use pre marital sex but there will be barely any marriage at all so that wouldn't be a problem, your kids could be raised in nice secular and anti-god homes and they'd be picking up drugs faster than you could say, "God isn't Real". Now, Imagine that all said in a British Accent

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Help me with my existential dilemma?

haha funny, and since you have no religion
the puzzle pieces fall into place

used:) · #52 01-26-2006, 07:11 PM

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Well Dino, we should ban atheism, you're reaction is the same as mine.
How bout you all ban together and form a new country, an atheist country, call it Ahthea and live in harmony in the mass destruction all around you, it shall be a country of mass drug use pre marital sex but there will be barely any marriage at all so that wouldn't be a problem, your kids could be raised in nice secular and anti-god homes and they'd be picking up drugs faster than you could say, "God isn't Real". Now, Imagine that all said in a British Accent

haha funny, and since you have no religion
the puzzle pieces fall into place

Now thats just retarded. You can't just assume that all atheists are dirty drug users who don't give a shit in the world. Some of the world's greatest thinkers have been atheists, Thomas Jefferson and Socrates for example. And besides, whats great about atheism is that you DON'T have to be controlled by a dusty old book when making decisions or going about your daily business, you can go by your own rules, and live a free life. So think twice before ridiculing atheists, because we own.

MojoMan220 · #53 01-26-2006, 07:18 PM

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Oddguy, Doing Good deeds alone will not get you into heaven even if there is a God

And you know this how?

:

How bout you all ban together and form a new country, an atheist country, call it Ahthea and live in harmony in the mass destruction all around you, it shall be a country of mass drug use pre marital sex but there will be barely any marriage at all so that wouldn't be a problem, your kids could be raised in nice secular and anti-god homes and they'd be picking up drugs faster than you could say, "God isn't Real". Now, Imagine that all said in a British Accent

Where do I sign up?

Seriously though, the most religious area in the world has daily suicide bombings.

Anyway, what really gets me, are these people who claim to have spoken to God! I mean, can you believe the ego on these people? Out of the 6 billion people on earth, he has chosen to talk to you... give me a break.

Abeguy · #54 01-26-2006, 07:40 PM

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And you know this how?

Its in there

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I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes through the father but through me

Think of him as a holy bouncer

***Nate*** · #55 01-26-2006, 11:07 PM

Which is why I prefer the Jewish perspective where anyone can get into heaven as long as they're a good person. Of course, they won't get as good a heaven as the theoretical perfect Jew but they also have less opportunities to screw up because they don't have 613 commandments to follow.

On another note; I found this article very interesting. It's by Penn Gillette (of Penn and Teller fame) and it describes how he lives his life as someone who believes there is no God (which he agrees is a belief system of its own - as distinct from someone who merely doesn't believe in god). So go read it here: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5015557

Adder · #56 01-27-2006, 01:35 AM

Abeguy, doing good deeds alone won't get you into heaven if Christianity is correct.

However, doing good deeds and not believing in Jesus will not land you in hell. I don't mind if my lack of faith leads to purgatory. Hell, from my interpretation at least, is reserved for people guilty of Mortal Sin and unwilling to repent.

Rich · #57 01-27-2006, 10:15 AM

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Well Dino, we should ban atheism, you're reaction is the same as mine.
How bout you all ban together and form a new country, an atheist country, call it Ahthea and live in harmony in the mass destruction all around you, it shall be a country of mass drug use pre marital sex but there will be barely any marriage at all so that wouldn't be a problem, your kids could be raised in nice secular and anti-god homes and they'd be picking up drugs faster than you could say, "God isn't Real". Now, Imagine that all said in a British Accent

You speak all this bollocks and then tell us we're the ones in the wrong?

Right, I'm off to **** like a rabbit in my antitheic drug den. With multiple un-married partners. Some are animals.

OANST · #58 01-27-2006, 12:06 PM

Hey, Rich. Could you shoot some heroin into my thigh while you fuuck me in the ass or would you prefer to do it after. I just want to know for later.

Leto · #59 01-27-2006, 01:10 PM

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we should ban atheism, you're reaction is the same as mine.

You can never ban athiesm, because if there is religion, not all people buy into it. Not all of us think "Hey dere be dun gawd up in 'eavens comin' to take me 'n mah momma when we die!".

The situation: Abeguy type Christians, stop slapping us non beleiving 'satanists' with the holier than thou shite. All you're doing is making everyone angry.
Athiest extremists, keep it in your pants. All you are doing is continuing the arguement which cannot be resolved, for even if something does not exist, some people will still grasp onto it like it really does.

Go screw yourself, Adder. There's a difference between conversation and spam, sir mod.

Adder · #60 01-27-2006, 01:46 PM

Super Munch, no one here has said people who don't believe in "X" are satanists.

I'm aware this topic has just about degraded out of discusion or debate (in my opinion, at least). That's why I remove my self from this thread.