Immortality

[Sydney]

"In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is immortality." Proverbs 12:28

A series is currently airing here in Australia called "How to Make A Human", which covers a lot of different topics. This weeks episode will be about aging, and how to stop the clock.

I've always been interested in immortality, and would love to give myself eternal life. I don't know a lot about it, but from what I've been told, aging is caused by mistakes made while your cells reproduce. Cells must constantly replace themselves, but there are often mistakes made, causing the new cells to be faulty - that's why people age. Things like UV rays from the sun and other forms of radiation can accelerate aging. When the DNA in the cells has been worn down to such an extent, vital parts of your body can simply stop working.

If we could ensure each cell replaces itself with 100% accuracy, the body wouldn't age!

[Lampion]

That would mean that you would be stuck forever to your body, with no possible way of enjoying the pleasures of Afterlife.

[Wil]

No matter how long perfect-cell-reproduction could sustain you for, there's always the possibility of separating your organs. That way, if you get bored with eternity, you could liven it up a bit - by taking the life out of it...er, yeah.

Where did I read that aging was caused by cells reacting to oxygen? Oh well, I read it somewhere. I prefer this new explanation, though. Although brain cells don't reproduce, do they? I could be wrong, but if I'm not, why do we get forgetful in the later years?

[pinkgoth2]

Originally posted by Max the Mug
Although brain cells don't reproduce, do they? I could be wrong, but if I'm not, why do we get forgetful in the later years?

Because they don't reproduce (or, barely). So if they die, they die, and there's nothing to replace them.

Our cells in the rest of the body replicate themselves because they also die. A cell can only live so long. I don't know HOW many skin cells you lose to the world each day, but it's quite a horrendous number. That, and the top of you skin is completely dead, anyway...


On immortality, two words: Liquid Cool (by Noko440 again). Cryogenics! *big, pathetic grin* Have yourself frozen and woken up when the world's changed enough to be interesting again!

I want to live longer than the years I would usually have as a human, but possibly not to the extent of 'immortality', especially if my brain eventually dies before me. I'm panicked about the possibility of being stupid (like, really retarded, though the process of losing braincells even minutely scares me shitless), actually. It's an odd fear to have. It made me cry when I could barely breathe in sports a while ago - t'wasn't the fear of suffocating, t'was the fact I could feel my brain was suffering a lack of oxygen.

*shudder*

I don't believe in an afterlife. Thus, if I die, it's over, fini, fertig, in my way of thinking about it. Unless I get reincarnated by chance (I believe reincarnation is possible, but a somewhat rare even), although - so what? If I was, that wouldn't be me anymore. The me of this life would be gone anyway, more or less... *shrug* So we're back to the "over, fini, fertig".

There's a great book by Dean Koontz about getting cells to make you 'immortal', it's called "Schattenfeuer", Shadowfire would be the translation, but I can't guarantee that that's also the original title.


- TyA

[pinkgoth2]

Originally posted by Sydney
If we could ensure each cell replaces itself with 100% accuracy, the body wouldn't age!

How long will you give humanity to figure that out? 150 years? Considering it's far more accurate even than computer copying, and obviously far more accurate than a photocopier, we'd have to learn that "perfection" the cells have first before we could improve it. *grin*

Just so I get this right: If I remember correctly, it's not the cell that has to be ensured to reproduce correctly, but the DNA in it. Of course, the end effect is the same, but it's the DNA that's really important, right?


- TyA

[Sydney]

Originally posted by Lampion
That would mean that you would be stuck forever to your body, with no possible way of enjoying the pleasures of Afterlife.

I have reason to have confidence in an afterlife?

Of course, my hopes for eternal life doesn't take into account that I could be hit by a bus.

Originally posted by pinthgoth2
Just so I get this right: If I remember correctly, it's not the cell that has to be ensured to reproduce correctly, but the DNA in it. Of course, the end effect is the same, but it's the DNA that's really important, right?

Yes, because the DNA is what tells the cell how to form. An error in the DNA equals an error in how the cell forms. I think I mentioned DNA in my original post.

[Gluk Schmuck]

Originally posted by Sydney
A series is currently airing here in Australia called "How to Make A Human", which covers a lot of different topics. This weeks episode will be about aging, and how to stop the clock.

That was on here a while ago and I remember that it had a big mistake in it. I can't remember what 'fact' it was that they got wrong but I know it was wrong. The rest was quite interesting and accurate.

[pinkgoth2]

Originally posted by Sydney
Of course, my hopes for eternal life doesn't take into account that I could be hit by a bus.Yes, because the DNA is what tells the cell how to form. An error in the DNA equals an error in how the cell forms. I think I mentioned DNA in my original post.

Indeed, so you did, though the emphasis in your post seemed to be more on the cells. Pardon.


- TyA

[Sydney]

A mistake? How slippery of them.

Last week's episode was particularly interesting. It covered sex and gender. They highlighted the story of one woman who actually had XY chromosomes. So genetically, she was a man, but she had a condition called androgen sensitivity syndrome, which rendered her body unable to respond to male hormones. Because all embryos begin as female before the surge of testosterone that causes male genitalia to develop, she kept female external genitalia. During her teenage years, she never had her period and she later discovered that she had no ovaries, nor a womb, and that her chromosomes were those of a man's.

It puts a new spin on things, providing further evidence that things like homosexuality are likely to be biological as opposed to psychological.

Originally posted by pinkgoth2
Indeed, so you did, though the emphasis in your post seemed to be more on the cells. Pardon.

Yes, because the cells are the tangible product of the DNA: the signs of aging are visual.

[Gluk Schmuck]

Originally posted by Sydney
It puts a new spin on things, providing further evidence that things like homosexuality are likely to be biological as opposed to psychological.

On The Truth About Gay Animals, it mentioned that there was a difference between a hetrosexual ram's brain and that of a homosexual ram. Apparently it was something congenital although it obviously can't be genetic.
I think it had something to do with the pituitary gland but I'm not sure.

[Sl'askia]

Merp...I tried to reply to this topic last night but the forums crashed. So here I am trying again.

Personally I think we have extended our lives long enough. If we all lived forever (yes I am being a bit extreme here, but that is what I think when someone mentions immortality), it would get boring (anyone see that one ep of Star Trek Voyeger with the Q that wanted to die?), not to mention we would have serious population problems.
Death is a necessary part of life, no matter how much we dread/fear it. Nothing lasts forever, not even gods(IMO).
There was a saying that is so true I got from a cartoon years ago: "It is not how long you live, it is what you do with the time you have."

[paramiteabe]

I heard something about scientists finding the actual gene that causes ageing and if they were to get rid of that gene we would never age. I don't know if this was true or not but it was interesting. We might of found the key to eternal life with this. If we did then we would definitly be on a scientific breakthrough of all history! That would be cool.

[Jacob]

I wouldn't mind living forever, so long i was the age of 25 all the time and i didn't get any older. And i could die when i wanted to. We could see the times change etc and gather more knowledge. Also, i would like to live forever if i was also immune to attacks and attempted murders on my life.

[Sydney]

Life would only get boring if you allowed it to get boring. If I was immortal I'd scheme a plan to rule the universe. I'd have all the time in the world to devise my plan.

Originally posted by Gluk Schmuck
Apparently it was something congenital although it obviously can't be genetic. I think it had something to do with the pituitary gland but I'm not sure.

I don't believe it to be genetic either, but I'm curious of your reasons for believing it obviously isn't so?

The latest is that homosexuality is linked to gender identity, which is dictated by a surge of testosterone at about 3 months of age. Doctors know this because it was monitored in hermaphrodites to decide which sex to assign the sexually ambiguous baby via surgery. Those babies whose bodies produce the surge of testosterone at 3 months have a 97% chance of identifying as heterosexual males, wheras those who don't produce the initial surge will identify as heterosexual females. This suggest that hormones during the early stages of a babies' development has a direct impact on the individual's sexual orientation.

[Gluk Schmuck]

Originally posted by Sydney
I don't believe it to be genetic either, but I'm curious of your reasons for believing it obviously isn't so?

Homosexuals won't reproduce. I'm talking more about pre-bigotry animals, not when homosexuals were pressured into getting married to a member of the opposite sex and having children.

Having a gene for homosexuality would be, for the gene pool, like having a gene that kills the organism before it reaches the age of sexual activity. And, hence, no homosexuals would reproduce (unless something made them copulate with members of t'other sex).

[Fazerina]

Originally posted by Sydney
They highlighted the story of one woman who actually had XY chromosomes. So genetically, she was a man, but she had a condition called androgen sensitivity syndrome, which rendered her body unable to respond to male hormones. Because all embryos begin as female before the surge of testosterone that causes male genitalia to develop, she kept female external genitalia. During her teenage years, she never had her period and she later discovered that she had no ovaries, nor a womb, and that her chromosomes were those of a man's.

I just saw a documentary about twins last week and there was a story of these teen-aged twins, who were identical, but different gender. I'm not sure if the girl had x and y chromosomes, or if she had just one x chromosome... I think she had just one x, but I'm not sure... I can't remember all the medical stuff, but I remember the father saying that one day they'll have to tell the girl that she'll never be like other girls and that she can never have children. It's a miracle, that she's even lived so long according to the doctors...

There was also a very interesting story of these two women, who were Siamese twins. They were connected to each other by their heads, looking at oppposite directions and they both had just one eye. The other one was paralyzed downwards form her neck and she had this special wheelchair and her sister pushed her everywhere. I can only imagine how difficult their lives must be... But they said, that if they had the change for an operation to separate them, they wouldn't go for it! Well I think they're used to living like that, because they've lived like that for 25-30 years, or something and they would probably miss the other one, if she suddenly wasn't there. One thing I found sad, was the fact that they're always together, but they can never see the other one from face to face...

The twins were really different. The other one was more down to earth when the other one had big dreams for her future. The other one had short straight brown hair, when the other one had long curly red hair (well the halves of their shared hair). The other one loved cooking when the other one loved country music etc... The interesting thing was that in the end of the show the doctors found out that they shared a large part of their brains! But still they've got their own minds and personalities and they can't feel each other's pain. They also share the same blood circulation. The other one was explaining that if she'd get drunk, her sister would get the alcohol in her blood as well, but she wouldn't get drunk. I didn't quite understand how this works...

I went a bit off topic here...

Oh well... I wouldn't want to live forever! Definitely not. I wouldn't want to see all the horrible things yet to come by human kind. I'm happy I'll get out of here before we have destroyed our whole planet...
And... quote from Faroukh Bulsara: "Who waits forever anyway?"

Originally posted by Sydney
If I was immortal I'd scheme a plan to rule the universe. I'd have all the time in the world to devise my plan.

What would you do, if you were the ruler of the universe, then?

[pinkgoth2]

Originally posted by Gluk Schmuck
[...] (unless something made them copulate with members of t'other sex).

Or they could really want a kid - it's possible with science. Donate a sperm/egg-cell, get someone to be mama (or be mama yourself if you're female homosexual), then later treat the kid like your own.


- TyA

[Jacob]

Or they could really want a kid - it's possible with science. Donate a sperm/egg-cell, get someone to be mama (or be mama yourself if you're female homosexual), then later treat the kid like your own.

Then you have people saying 'You shouldn't be a parent, your gay, your not normal, your sinful!!' etc. And its like... 'Be quiet'. Can you turn homosexual through the enviroment? Like, most closet gay guys are brung upto be straight by the enviroment they are in. Their genes say they are gay however they are brung up to think 'Homosexuality' is something to be disgraced etc and that all 'Decent' people are straight. So in the end they act straight to satisfy their parents and to prove to themselves that they are a good person. My point is if a straight baby was brought up by gay parents and the parents taught it that 'Gay was K' and that Hetro was a disgrace would the baby turn gay to please the parents, and be forced to come out of the 'Non-Gay closet' as it got stressed and needed to tell the truth. I can imagine it now.

Child: "Mom...Mom, im not gay."

Mom #1: "W-what are you trying to say...y-your straight!?"

Mom #2: "You know what society thinks to...that kind!?"

Child: "Yes, yes i know. But i couldn't deal with lying to myself aswell as everybody i know, its the 21st century. Times have changed, straight is ok."

Mom #2: "Are you sure...it might be a phase?"

Child: "Yes, i am sure. I am attracted to women and want my own children and a big house. With a white picket fence and a dog called 'Rover' "

*Mom #1 puts head in hands and sobs*

Mom #2: "Look at what your putting your mother through. She had dreams of what you were gonna do with your life. You would have a nice homosexual guy called 'Lewis' and you would be the owner of a string of Gay clubs throughout town."

Child: "I can still own the gay clubs, they dont discriminate a club owner cos of his sexuality!!"

Mom #1: "Your a disgrace to the family, what will the neighbours think. You will be treat differently, people will look at you funny when you walk down the street. They'll make fun of you and call you stuff like 'Front-Bum burgler' or 'Titty fiddler' why have you done this to us, why!?"

Child: "Its who i am mom...its who i am."

And so on and so forth.

[Gluk Schmuck]

Originally posted by pinkgoth2
Or they could really want a kid

I consider that something that makes them copulate with a member of t'other sex.

[morphius]

becoming old (aging) is because of genes and if you were able to live forever would you really want to?, knowing there is a better place above.

[Majic]

I'd go crazy if I had no human contact. I would like to be able and sit fast-forwarded through time and see the cahnges and what happens, but theres just wouldnt be soemoen to share with. Imortality seems cool, but it isn't. Think of knowing you'd be all alone for eternity. Being able to choose when you want to die isn't exactly imortality. But like I said long ago, if there was an afterlife and you could go around as a ghost, or a spirit and communicate and stuff, that would be awesome. But just being alone forever sitting and watching the universe come to an end. It would probably depend on personal opinion though. BUt Syd, think, what would you do with the universe if no one was there? All you can eat buffet! Good idea.

And Chris, your story was touching, I think I'm gonna cry... Actualy I've read better picture books

[Sydney]

Gluk, then there's the obvious studies on homosexuality in genetically identical twins. While if one is a homosexual, there's something like a 75% chance that its twin will also be homosexual. The high percentage does suggest that it's something up in the womb, but clearly it isn't genetic, unless we have heaps of closet cases.

Is it really impossible for homosexuality to exist in the genes, though? Maybe the presence of homosexuality provided some benefits to a family in earlier times. Rather than passing itself on from a gay person, it is passed on through every ten or so generations. There is evidence to suggest that homosexuals, while not being able to produce offspring of their own, have heightened nurturing abilities, which would prove to be an evolutionary advantage.

Originally posted by Fazerina
What would you do, if you were the ruler of the universe, then?

I'd make the universe grand! And I'd be the God above all other Gods!

Originally posted by morphius
becoming old (aging) is because of genes and if you were able to live forever would you really want to?, knowing there is a better place above.

We've already established that aging is caused by the natural decomposition of the genes. If I was able to live forever - yes, I really would want to. As for "knowing" there's a better place above - how do you know?

Originally posted by Majic_Abe
BUt Syd, think, what would you do with the universe if no one was there? All you can eat buffet! Good idea.

Who said that nobody would be there? If all the beings in the universe had died, I'd simply create more! With so much time to understand how the universe works, it would be a breeze creating life. Observing millions of years of evolution would be awesome.

[LuxoJr]

Didn't you guys learn anything from the Highlander movies, and, to a lesser extent, the terrible Canadian TV show of the same name? Being immortal sucks. Assuming that you're an immortal amongst mortals, you're forced to watch everybody you love die slowly and ugly. So your attractive new spouse will be sagging like an asparagus while you're still fertile and healthy.

And if everybody is immortal, then you get immense overpopulation unless people start killing each other off. When that happens, you'd be back to where we are now.

Or you could make like that Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy alien; travelling through time, insulting every organic life form in the universe, - in alphabetical order.

[pinkgoth2]

Originally posted by LuxoJr
And if everybody is immortal, then you get immense overpopulation unless people start killing each other off. When that happens, you'd be back to where we are now.

Maybe if you're immortal you stop being able to reproduce. Or, if you can be immortal and still reproduce, there'd be laws against it or some sh1t. ^_^ But it's hardly a problem that cannot be solved.


- TyA

[Danny]

I told myself I wasn't going to dig up any old topics, but then I thought "Ah well, it's only on page 2, and it was only 5 days ago..."

Several people seem to have misunderstood the idea we are discussing here. We are not talking about being unable to die here, we are simply talking about Clinical Immortality, IE no aging. You would still be perfectly capable of dying if you wanted to, or if you were in an accident, or if you were murdered...

I think that this kind of Immortality has the major downside that Overpopulation would most likely go through the roof... On the other hand, people might develop a more (for want of a better word) mature attitude to Death, and accept that at some point, death wouldn't be a bad thing. I don't think, even with Clinical Immortality, that anybody would live past 300 or 400, simply because they would more or less kill themselves... Not necessarily deliberately, but they would start taking bigger and bigger risks in the pursuit of recreation...

As for me: I'm sure I could do with a couple of extra centuries...