Evolution- truth, or bad bad devil candy?

Dequibenzo · #1 05-02-2002, 02:48 AM

We talk about darwinian evolution alot around here, what with oddworld involving it and whatnot, so I wouldn't be suprised if this is an old topic. Sorry to dredge it up if it is, but curiosity gets the best of me. What are you guys' general opinions on biological evolution, natural selection, etc? Do you believe in evolution, or creationism, or something else, and why or why not? Personally, I believe in evolution, but you never know when a good argument could sway you, so...

Lampion · #2 05-02-2002, 03:46 AM

Someone correct me please, if I'm wrong.

The main philosophy of Creationism states that species don't mutate or change into another species, so that a primate the size of a hamster could never change into a human being, through several mutations. On the other hand, Evolutionism states that all the species are in constant mutation and can eventually change into new species, so that a little reptile species could change into a bird, through several mutations.

Particularly, I'm an evolutionist enthusiast, and in my personal opinion, ideas like Creationism were created by the dominat classes to make the masses of people believe that the world is static, and it doesn't matter how bad your life is, you cannot do anythig to change that.

pinkgoth2 · #3 05-02-2002, 10:08 AM

:

Originally posted by Dequibenzo
We talk about darwinian evolution alot around here, what with oddworld involving it and whatnot, so I wouldn't be suprised if this is an old topic. Sorry to dredge it up if it is, but curiosity gets the best of me. What are you guys' general opinions on biological evolution, natural selection, etc? Do you believe in evolution, or creationism, or something else, and why or why not? Personally, I believe in evolution, but you never know when a good argument could sway you, so...

Evolution is truth. That's my opinion.
Ditto with selection. At least in nature it is. In human society... well, hmm... can't really see much of that around, thus no linear evolution, but a big bunch of oddities. :)

Creationism is something I relate to religions such as christianity (no, it's not the only religion claiming the world was created by a god, which is why the "such as" is there). Since I'm mostly an anti-religion person (t'least those that deal with the afterlife and/or a supreme deity), it's nothing more than a nice story. I'd never consider seeing it as anything but that, either.

Devil... of course it's the work of the devil. Considering Satan's always been attatched to the carnal, animals and their natural urges and violence, and to things opposing the bible. Devil candy - no. But associable with the devil, yea. In the most positive way, as a symbol.

- TyA

Sydney · #4 05-02-2002, 10:34 AM

Evolution. I'm surprised that many people are still so opposed to it, there really are no arguments here.

Teal · #5 05-02-2002, 10:41 AM

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Originally posted by Sydney
Evolution. I'm surprised that many people are still so opposed to it, there really are no arguments here.

Ditto on that... Although I can sometimes see where the creationist types are coming from - after all, there's so much order to evolution and stuff it's sometimes hard to believe there's not a guiding hand to it all. But nope, it's evolution all the way for me.

Gluk Schmuck · #6 05-02-2002, 01:29 PM

I'm an evolutionist.

MudokonOddball · #7 05-02-2002, 05:21 PM

ACK! You stole my topic! *grrmble*

Well, I still believe that God created everything, but HE made the Big Bang, HE gudied evolution along, and HE mad us in his plan.
But all of your things that you've suggested still apply, just with God incorporated, too. At least, that's what I think....

Dequibenzo · #8 05-02-2002, 06:59 PM

Very cool. I thought this might be the general concensus. Around prarie-dog hole land, where I live, it's hard to find people who don't go to church five or six times a week, it seems. Which isn't to say that church-goers are necissarily bad, you just get tired of the whole "Because the bible says so" argument. Plus, evolution actually makes sense.
I like the idea of God guiding evolution as it's creation process. That's a good compromise, especially as the evidence for evolution keeps piling up. Which brings us to another good question- if you don't mind my asking, what are your opinions on the existance of God? I myself am an apatheist- I don't care one way or the other, but it's always interesting to hear other people's takes.

Statikk HDM · #9 05-02-2002, 07:14 PM

Bad devil candy.

Gluk Schmuck · #10 05-02-2002, 07:15 PM

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Originally posted by Dequibenzo
1. Which brings us to another good question- if you don't mind my asking, what are your opinions on the existance of God?

2. I myself am an apatheist- I don't care one way or the other, but it's always interesting to hear other people's takes.

1. I am an atheist!

2. But do you actually belive in God or not?

Black Dragon · #11 05-02-2002, 08:01 PM

Well, even though I am Christian, I still believe in evolution. Everything evolved from some other living being. There's my two cents on this subject.

Danny · #12 05-02-2002, 08:39 PM

Evolution: Truth. I will believe it until I see convincing evidence against it. At the time this post went to press, the amount of evidence against Evolution was roughly Zero...

God: I'm an Agnostic Atheist. I don't think God exists, but I don't know he doesn't exist... Basically, the burden of Proof is on the Believer, and so far there isn't any.

Sl'askia · #13 05-02-2002, 08:56 PM

I fully believe in evolution, yet I do believe there is are 'higher life forms' that is guiding our evolutionary progress.

pinkgoth2 · #14 05-03-2002, 11:14 AM

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Originally posted by Dequibenzo
[...] Which isn't to say that church-goers are necissarily bad, you just get tired of the whole "Because the bible says so" argument. [...]

Responsibility to the responsible is all I say. (= I agree totally!)

- TyA

pinkgoth2 · #15 05-03-2002, 11:22 AM

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Originally posted by Dequibenzo
Which brings us to another good question- if you don't mind my asking, what are your opinions on the existance of God?

I'm a Satanist. That means I don't believe in any gods, no supreme deity, just in nature and the carnal spirit of man's. I guess you could say my 'god' is me.

If God exists, I doubt he'd really be interested in earth. I mean, face it, the universe is huge and a cool playground. Why would a God want to stick to earth only? Just because there are smaller parts of it that move and/or grow (=critters)? Hm.

And then there's always the question of before. "What did God do before he created the universe? Twiddle thumbs?"

Basically, I don't care if there is a supreme deity, because if there is, the chances are by 0,0001% or whatnot that it's primary interest would be earth.

It's also my belief that if God is the way christians portray him, then he'd just be like a child with a gun. Having the power without the responsibility. "You upset me, I kill you! ...and won't be your friend anymore. WAAAAH." *insert sobbing here*
It sounds like this big I-want-to-be-appreciated personality dislocation. Don't know if anyone heard of Erfurt, but that's a great example. No one bothered to pay much attention to the boy in school, so he took a gun and mowed down 16 people or so before killing himself. Lame.

- TyA

pinkgoth2 · #16 05-03-2002, 11:23 AM

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Originally posted by pinkgoth2
Lame.

Okay, so shoot me. (pun intended)

- TyA

Dequibenzo · #17 05-03-2002, 02:29 PM

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Originally posted by Gluk Schmuck
But do you actually belive in God or not?

Like I said, I don't really care. Do you believe that a traffic cone could, if properly motivated, run for and win a seat in parliament? Never thought about that one, did you? That's because you never had a good reason to. I think that it's sort of a silly way to spend your time, trying to form an opinion on a matter for which there is absolutely no evidence one way or the other, especially when there's really nothing to gain for it. The argument of whether or not there is a God is alot like Heidegger's cat experiment: he put a cat in a box, and said that, as long as you don't check in any way to see if it's in there, it isn't. Whether or not it's true is impossible to prove, because testing it by it's own rules voids your results. The standard Christian etc. definition of god has gotten so abstract that you can't prove he exists because he is, by definition, beyond human comprehension, and you can't disprove his existance by the same token. We've painted ourselves into a corner on the issue by re-defining God every time an argument comes around against the old image of him- we flew, so he didn't live in the clouds anymore. We got to the moon, so he wasn't there anymore. We've looked all over the universe, and now he's supposedly unseeable. The idea of God constantly evolves away from arguments for it, making it impossible to either prove or disprove by any effort, until we get to a standstill and there's nothing but opinions left on either side. And, like everything this pointless and confusing, I tend to lose interest very quickly and eat Cheetos. Mm, Cheetos...

Gluk Schmuck · #18 05-03-2002, 02:44 PM

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Originally posted by pinkgoth2
It's also my belief that if God is the way christians portray him, then he'd just be like a child with a gun. Having the power without the responsibility.

God: Johnah, go and tell those people off because I'm too lazy!

Johnah: Yeah, sure.

God: Why didn't you do what I told you to do? I'll set my whale/shark on you!

Johnah: **** you!

God: *sets the whale/shark on Johnah*

Johnah: Okay, God, I'll do what you want!

Tom: According to the Bible, God is petty. Very petty! Petty and evil, in fact.

God: *electricutes Tom*

Statikk HDM · #19 05-03-2002, 06:57 PM

Pinkgoth2, you are not a satanist in the true sense of the word, a person who worships Satan. Whay you are is a humanist "god is ma' person witht a sprinkling of some kind of belief in a polytheistic "force" I didn't do this to piss you off, just to show you that you should rethink your religious label.

Joe the Intern · #20 05-03-2002, 07:19 PM

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Pinkgoth2, you are not a satanist in the true sense of the word, a person who worships Satan. Whay you are is a humanist "god is ma' person witht a sprinkling of some kind of belief in a polytheistic "force" I didn't do this to piss you off, just to show you that you should rethink your religious label.

People who worship Satan are called Diabloists.

As for the topic at hand, I believe there is more evidence for evolution than any deity. I'm athiest.

Scabcakes · #21 05-04-2002, 03:05 AM

Ummm... Hello Everyone.

I'm a new person here but not a new person to Oddworld (gotta love the stuff), and this is my first post. I happen to work part-time at the La Brea Tar Pits of Los Angeles (big museum) and evolution is a big part of the place, so this topic kind of my specialty. Evolution is a fact! Anyone who has any questions or disagrees, I would be happy to detail. What is debated in the scientific community, however, is what triggers evolution. Darwin's theory of natural selection explains how populations of animals change in the short run (microevolution). But some feel it doesn't work fast enough for species to change entirely. The increasingly popular theory for speciation (macroevolution) is called punctuated equillibrium. This idea states that organisms change very quickly (triggered by possibly a catastrophy), and then go through a period of very little change. The idea of a God controlled evolution is called Intelligent Design, or ID. It is gaining popularity and I have no problem with it, except certain fundamentalists are trying to get it pushed into science class (and science it is not). Sorry about the length, but I hope you enjoy my information!

pinkgoth2 · #22 05-04-2002, 09:20 AM

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Originally posted by Statikk HDM
Pinkgoth2, you are not a satanist in the true sense of the word, a person who worships Satan. Whay you are is a humanist "god is ma' person witht a sprinkling of some kind of belief in a polytheistic "force" I didn't do this to piss you off, just to show you that you should rethink your religious label.

Err, no. Please look it up on www.religioustolerance.org , you will see what you mean are either "Diabloists" or "Gothic Satanists" (which neither has anything to do with Satanism, not Gothdom).

Polytheistic "force"? Elaborate. I don't think I believe in that, unless "nature" is precisely that.

Well, thank you for pointing it out, even if you're wrong.

And it's not a religion for me, it's a philosophy. ^_^

- TyA

Edit: Thanks, Joe. :)

Danny · #23 05-04-2002, 12:02 PM

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Originally posted by pinkgoth2
I'm a Satanist. That means I don't believe in any gods, no supreme deity, just in nature and the carnal spirit of man's. I guess you could say my 'god' is me.

Surely "Atheist" would be just as valid a label for you...? Besides, whatever the new definitions, Satanism originally referred to the worship of Satan, and I am sticking to that, rather than changing my definitions according to whatever's fashoinable at the time...

:

If God exists, I doubt he'd really be interested in earth. I mean, face it, the universe is huge and a cool playground. Why would a God want to stick to earth only? Just because there are smaller parts of it that move and/or grow (=critters)? Hm.

Before I say this, I personally do not believe in God. Just wanted to make that clear. But I think that one way to get around the issue of the Universe being really big would be to say that God is simply the God of Earth, not the whole Space malarkey.

:

It's also my belief that if God is the way christians portray him, then he'd just be like a child with a gun. Having the power without the responsibility. "You upset me, I kill you! ...and won't be your friend anymore. WAAAAH." *insert sobbing here*
It sounds like this big I-want-to-be-appreciated personality dislocation.

The way I see it, if there is a God, he's a sadistic f*cker...

pinkgoth2 · #24 05-04-2002, 12:27 PM

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Originally posted by Danny
Surely "Atheist" would be just as valid a label for you...? Besides, whatever the new definitions, Satanism originally referred to the worship of Satan, and I am sticking to that, rather than changing my definitions according to whatever's fashoinable at the time...

Pity. Considering Gothic Satanism/Diabloism is a very recent addition to sects, and is nothing but a sect, as any scriptures you will find about apparent 'Satanism' from the middleages is just the work of a paranoid christian.
Satanism never meant devilworship. Satan means 'opposer' or 'arch fiend' or something along those lines, and that's where the word "Satanism" comes from.

:

Before I say this, I personally do not believe in God. Just wanted to make that clear. But I think that one way to get around the issue of the Universe being really big would be to say that God is simply the God of Earth, not the whole Space malarkey.

That works, okay. But didn't the Xian god apparently make the universe? (yes, it's a question, not a statement)

:

The way I see it, if there is a God, he's a sadistic f*cker...

Danny! I don't believe it. Something we agree on. *l* (probably for different reasons, though)

- TyA

Danny · #25 05-04-2002, 12:42 PM

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Originally posted by pinkgoth2
Pity. Considering Gothic Satanism/Diabloism is a very recent addition to sects, and is nothing but a sect, as any scriptures you will find about apparent 'Satanism' from the middleages is just the work of a paranoid christian.
Satanism never meant devilworship. Satan means 'opposer' or 'arch fiend' or something along those lines, and that's where the word "Satanism" comes from.

:

satanism

\Sa"tan*ism\, n. The evil and malicious disposition of Satan; a diabolical spirit. [R.]

:

That works, okay. But didn't the Xian god apparently make the universe? (yes, it's a question, not a statement)

I can't be bothered to find an actual quote, but I'm szure Genesis said something about God creating "Earth, the Heavens, the Sun and the Moon". This just goes to show that the people who wrote the Bible didn't actually know about the Universe, and so just assumed that the Earth was the centre of everything, with the Sun and the Moon and those tiny specks of grit that stars appear to be just orbiting around it...

I rambled a bit there - what I meant was that God was created as creator of Earth, because people didn't know about the Universe. I don't know what the official Christian stance is now... Likely they just avoid the question, like the avoid all the others...

:

Danny! I don't believe it. Something we agree on. *l* (probably for different reasons, though).

*puzzled look* So far, the only thing we've disagreed on was Economics, wasn't it?

pinkgoth2 · #26 05-04-2002, 12:55 PM

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Originally posted by Danny
satanism

http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanis1.htm

:

I can't be bothered to find an actual quote, but I'm szure Genesis said something about God creating "Earth, the Heavens, the Sun and the Moon". This just goes to show that the people who wrote the Bible didn't actually know about the Universe, and so just assumed that the Earth was the centre of everything, with the Sun and the Moon and those tiny specks of grit that stars appear to be just orbiting around it...
I rambled a bit there - what I meant was that God was created as creator of Earth, because people didn't know about the Universe. I don't know what the official Christian stance is now... Likely they just avoid the question, like the avoid all the others...

Ah, alright, thanks for the clearup there. Although I think most Xians view God as the creator of the universe anyway.

:

*puzzled look* So far, the only thing we've disagreed on was Economics, wasn't it?

Now who's taking the other to seriously? *evil grin*

By the way, I should heed the words of a friend *is laughing at this*
" better be careful ^_^ Danny boy is a mod, power currupts as they say ^_^ "

- TyA

Danny · #27 05-04-2002, 01:01 PM

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Originally posted by pinkgoth2
Now who's taking the other to seriously? *evil grin*

Well, you never can be too sure... You and I seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot, so I wouldn't be surprised if you did think I was out to get you or something... :S

pinkgoth2 · #28 05-04-2002, 01:04 PM

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Originally posted by Danny
Well, you never can be too sure... You and I seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot, so I wouldn't be surprised if you did think I was out to get you or something... :S

Actually, I am quite amused. Yet, for the sake of (insert some term here):

AH! DANNY IS AFTER ME! HELP ME! PLEASE! SOMEONE! IT'S ALL A BIG CONSPIRACY!...

Eh. No. ^_^

- Neike / TyA

BiddaMD · #29 05-04-2002, 02:03 PM

Most knowledged peopled base the theory of evolution as fact, yet know one knows for sure. I think it is perfectly acceptable, but wouldn't be suprised if someone found a flaw in Darwin's qausi-old studies.

Danny · #30 05-04-2002, 03:26 PM

Put it this way: There is a lot of evidence for Evolution, and absolutely none supporting any other theory that claims to explain how we got here...

*votes Traffic Cone*

After all, Darlington does have a man in a monkey suit as its Mayor...

[It is Darlington, isn't it?]