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  #1  
12-26-2001, 10:35 PM
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The Big Bang

[This is mainly to Sydney and Pinky. I couldn't be bothered to type it all out, so I found a website, which gave a much simpler explanation...]

Our Universe

Two and a half models

The steady state theory of cosmology claims that the Universe simply exists without changing with time. This theory presents many physical as well as philosophical difficulties. Evidence suggests that the Universe is expanding. While there are ways to explain expansion in a steady state universe, few astrophysicists believe this theory, because there is little evidence to support it. As the first widely held theory about the Universe it is included here for historical completeness.

The big bang theory states that at some time in the distant past there was nothing. A process known as vacuum fluctuation created what astrophysicists call a singularity. From that singularity, which was about the size of a dime, our Universe was born.

It is hard to imagine the very beginning of the Universe. Physical laws as we know them did not exist due to the presence of incredibly large amounts of energy, in the form of photons. Some of the photons became quarks, and then the quarks formed neutrons and protons. Eventually huge numbers of Hydrogen, Helium and Lithium nuclei formed. The process of forming all these nuclei is called big bang nucleosynthesis. Theoretical predictions about the amounts and types of elements formed during the big bang have been made and seem to agree with observation. Furthermore, the cosmic microwave background (CMB), a theoretical prediction about photons left over from the big bang, was discovered in the 1960's and mapped out by a team at Berkeley in the early 1990's.

After some period of time following the big bang, gravity condensed clumps of matter together. The clumps were gravitationally pulled towards other clumps and eventually formed galaxies. It is extremely difficult to model how this clumping may have occurred, but most models agree that it occurred faster than it should have. A possible explanation is that right after the big bang the Universe began a period of exaggerated outward expansion, with particles flying outward faster than the current speed of light. This explanation is known as inflation theory, and has widespread advocacy within the astrophysics community because it reconciles theory with observation. It should be noted, however, that inflation theory is not directly verifiable.

Whether you believe inflation theory or not, galaxies did form. And since they formed from matter that was moving rapidly, they also move rapidly. Due to a phenomenon called doppler shifting, the wavelength emitted by something moving away from us is shifted to a lower frequency, and the wavelength of something moving towards us is shifted to a higher frequency. A good example of this is the sound of a fire truck siren as it drives by; the pitch of the siren is higher as the fire truck moves towards you, and lower as it moves away from you. Although this example illustrates the effect for sound waves, the same effect occurs for all wavelengths (incuding light), the result being that visible wavelengths emitted by objects moving away from us are shifted towards the red part of the visible spectrum, or redshifted. And the faster they move away from us, the more they are redshifted. Thus, redshift is a reasonable way to measure the speed of an object (this, by the way, is the principal by which radar guns measure the speed of a car or baseball). Here's the point: When we observe the redshift of galaxies outside our local group, every galaxy appears to be moving away from us. We are therefore lead to the conclusion that our Universe is expanding. This is called hubble expansion, after Edwin Hubble, who discovered the phenomenon in 1929.

Here's a subtle point that you may have wondered about: If we look out into the Universe and every galaxy we see is moving away from us, doesn't that mean that we are at the center of the Universe? The obvious answer seems to be 'yes', but actually the answer is 'no'. Hopefully the following analogy will explain why. Image a loaf of raisin bread baking in the oven. As the bread bakes it gets bigger, and every raisin moves away from every other raisin. Now imagine that you are sitting on one of the raisins (ignore the heat of the oven). All the other raisins are moving away from you, so you might conclude that you are at the center of the loaf of bread. But if you were on a different raisin you would also see every raisin moving away from you and would also conclude that you are at the center of the loaf. The same thing is happening in the Universe. No matter where you are in the Universe, every galaxy you see is moving away from you. That's why astrophysicists say that you shouldn't talk about the center of the Universe; there really is no center of the Universe.

The oscillatory Universe model claims that the Universe started with a big bang, and that it is currently expanding. Eventually, however, the expansion will slow, stop, and then the Universe will begin to contract. The contraction will continue until all of the mass of the Universe is contained in a singularity, a process known as the big crunch. The singularity then undergoes a big bang, and the process begins afresh.

Top three reasons to believe big bang cosmology:
  • Big Bang Nucleosynthesis
  • Cosmic Microwave Background
  • Hubble Expansion

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Rettick ]
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  #2  
12-26-2001, 10:58 PM
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I already know about the BigBang theory. I saw it on Bill Nye the Science guy plus I learned about it in school. It just sounds stupid and, uuuuugh.

Notice it's called the Big Bange Theory, Not the Big Bang facts.

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

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  #3  
12-26-2001, 11:07 PM
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And Belief in God is called Belief, not Fact...
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  #4  
12-26-2001, 11:10 PM
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:
Originally posted by Rettick:
And Belief in God is called Belief, not Fact...
Um no, it's a fact. You don't hear the concept Creationism Theory.

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  #5  
12-26-2001, 11:13 PM
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Yes I do. All the time. Why, what do you call it?
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  #6  
12-26-2001, 11:14 PM
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well really everything is a theory including that I typed(am typing) this and nothing is possible to prove exept that you can prove nothing.
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  #7  
12-26-2001, 11:15 PM
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Yeah right, you don't hear that. Majority of people think the Big Bang is a bunch of rubbish and I think so too. I can see if it makes sense but it does'nt really.

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  #8  
12-26-2001, 11:18 PM
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The Big Bang makes a hell of a lot more sense than that God created the Universe in 7 days... If Creationism is so watertight, why don't you explain it to us, O Font of All Knowledge? And give evidence, like I've done!
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  #9  
12-26-2001, 11:20 PM
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That is not evidence at all! Can you explain the skull that was older than the dinosaur bone that they just found! Evolution makes since!? Ha! They have no proof of that happening! Explain some of the rivers mention that use to be in the Garden of Eden that still exist to this day like Tigris and Euphrates.

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  #10  
12-26-2001, 11:22 PM
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A theory is a way of explaining something with available facts. What facts are available to support creationism? It's easy to spout something as truth, but you need to support it if you want to be taken seriously.

Thanks for posting that Rettick. When the universe expands once again, I wonder if the conditions are compressed back to how they were. Does this mean that the expansion and contraction of the universe is a self-sustaining process that produces a universe identical to the one prior (meaning we will once again be having this conversation in the next expansion)? I guess prior is an erroneous term, since time is also compressed and distorted, essentially making it the same universe as it always was. Clearly, I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'd better stop before I make myself look even more foolish.
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  #11  
12-26-2001, 11:23 PM
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Having the same names doesn't prove anything Pink. It just means that the author at the time used the names of the location he knew about as references.
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  #12  
12-26-2001, 11:24 PM
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BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE WHEN THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN. and what skull they found that was older than dinosaurs? I won't believe it till I carbon date it.
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  #13  
12-26-2001, 11:27 PM
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:
Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR:
Can you explain the skull that was older than the dinosaur bone that they just found!1
Evolution makes since!? Ha! They have no proof of that happening!2
Explain some of the rivers mention that use to be in the Garden of Eden that still exist to this day like Tigris and Euphrates.3
1. Not if I don't know anything about it.
2. Yes, they do. But I may need to start another topic to explain it all.
3. Because they are names of rivers. I don't remember anyone getting mixed-up with the Jesus in the Bible and any other Jesuses they met.
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  #14  
12-26-2001, 11:28 PM
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I wouldn't be surprised if that skull was found to be a hoax...like some religious nutcases determined to prove the bible is real planted it...
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  #15  
12-26-2001, 11:29 PM
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:
Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR:
That is not evidence at all!(1) Can you explain the skull that was older than the dinosaur bone that they just found!(2) Evolution makes since!? Ha! They have no proof of that happening!(3) Explain some of the rivers mention that use to be in the Garden of Eden that still exist to this day like Tigris and Euphrates.(4)
1. So you're saying that Hubble Expansion and Microwave Background Radiation proves nothing?

2. Yes. Fake.

3. So you're also discounting Fossils?

4. Oh My God! The town of 'Oxford', mentioned in the Inspector Morse novels, is also in real life! Inspector Morse must have been real!

Sydney: No, the new Universe will not be in any way the same as the old one. It might even have different forces, like Antigravity instead of Gravity, or three-dimensional time with one-dimensional space... It's weird, I know...
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  #16  
12-26-2001, 11:30 PM
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Really, you had people there when the bible was written.

On another note on this theory on dinosaurs,
Why would God destroy the dinosaurs? Why create something when it turns out wrong and then you destroy it? We don't know how they were created and why. Maybe Lucifer did when he was kicked out of heaven?

Rettick, your first post does not prove a thing, that's what people think what happen. It can't be proven. So they have real eye proof on this?

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  #17  
12-26-2001, 11:32 PM
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Do you have "real eye proof" of Creationism?
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  #18  
12-26-2001, 11:34 PM
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But if time was squashed back into its original form - as was all matter, then one would be lead to believe that we've returned to the conditions that started the universe. If the universe was to exist without an outside force, then wouldn't a stable, self-sustaining system make sense, especially if it is a cycle that repeats itself?
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  #19  
12-26-2001, 11:36 PM
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on another note seeing as this seems to be a religious debate neandrathals almost definatly had religion becuase they buried their dead and there is no reason to do that unless they believe there is an afterlife (there are easier ways to get rid of the smell then carry the body to the cave, dig a hole and dump it in)

edit many scientists believe that the big crunch will not happen seeing as by the time the power to move the galaxy's away is exerted the galaxys will be too far away for gravity to pull them together

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Steve ]
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  #20  
12-26-2001, 11:37 PM
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Sydney: If the Universe that is collapsing is different to the Universe that collapsed to create it in the first place, then the conditions will be different, so the new Universe will arise differently. It's analogous[sp] to colliding streams of Protons and Antiprotons together in a Particle Accelerator, and getting all kinds of exotic particles out of it - what went in has no real relationship with what is produced...

Steve: Much as I appreciate that, and agree totally, this is a debate about Creation, really, not just general Religion. Thanks for the input, though.

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Rettick ]
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  #21  
12-26-2001, 11:41 PM
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so are you saying that 'god' thought the dinosaurs where a mistake, wiped them out and created the mammals...because mammals were better? Hmmm...if there really was a god I would think the same applies to religion.

God: hmmm The aztecs aren't working out lets try again. *starts up judism*

*a bit later*

God: no that one isn't working out either...
*starts up Christianity*

*A bit later*

God: this one isn't working out either...hmmm......

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Dragadon ]
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12-26-2001, 11:47 PM
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:
Originally posted by Dragadon:
so are you saying that 'god' thought the dinosaurs where a mistake, wiped them out and created the mammals...because mammals were better? Hmmm...if there really was a god I would think the same applies to religion.

God: hmmm The aztecs aren't working out lets try again. *starts up judism*

*a bit later*

God: no that one isn't working out either...
*starts up Christianity*

*A bit later*

God: this one isn't working out either...hmmm......

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Dragadon ]
Pinky: Hmmmm, that's not funny Dragandon.

God does not make mistakes.

No, see now your making everything all backwards and putting words in my mouth. I was wondering why he destroyed them. I did'nt say that they were a mistake. I was wondering why were there dinosaurs? Did Satan make then to destroy mankind and God destoryed the dinosaurs? Satan wanted to destroy mankind from the beginning. Was that one of his plans? I think it explains somewhere in the bible about dinosaurs, I will check...brb

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

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  #23  
12-26-2001, 11:47 PM
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wow 20 replies in a little over an hour is this a record?

edit:humans and dinosaurs never existed at the same time.

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Steve ]
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  #24  
12-26-2001, 11:58 PM
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if God doesn't make mistakes...they why did he create humans? That's a big mistake in my book...would have prefered we stayed as monkeys or clay..or whatever you 'believe' we came out of...
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12-27-2001, 12:04 AM
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Actually, when God Created Humans we were without sin, and were meant to live forever. No wars, just peace and harmony. Until the serpet who was satan, tempted Eve to eat the fruit from the garden and she sinned because she disobeyed God and he told her not to eat the fruit or she will die and she did eat it. Die not just physically, but spiritually. It's a looong story It explains why Christ came to die for us.

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12-27-2001, 12:11 AM
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:
Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR:
Actually, when God Created Humans we were without sin, and were meant to live forever. No wars, just peace and harmony. Until the serpet who was satan1, tempted Eve to eat the fruit from the garden and she sinned2 because she disobeyed God and he told her not to eat the fruit or she will die and she did eat it. Die not just physically, but spiritually. It's a looong story It explains why Christ came to die for us3.
1. If Eden was such a nice place, why was Satan in there?
2. Maybe if God was a little better at making mind-less minions Eve wouldn't have disobayed him/her.
3. So if Christ died 'for our sins'. Then wouldn't it be sacreligious not to commit the sins that Christ died for? (please answer this question Pinky)
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12-27-2001, 12:16 AM
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ALright I will answer them, I gotta go to the bathroom first excuse me..

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  #28  
12-27-2001, 12:17 AM
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Okay, enough arguing. Since Pinky clearly didn't get it last time, I'm going to elaborate on the Proof for the Big Bang Theory:

Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation
There is observable radiation (in the microwave portion of the electromagnetic spectrum) left over from the big bang. It is considered [by sensible, reasonable, non-fundamentalist people] to be proof of the Big Bang.

Big Bang Nucleosynthesis
Lighter elements, such as Hydrogen, Helium and Lithium, were formed as a result of the big bang in a process called big bang nucleosynthesis. Scientists can calculate how much of which elements were formed, and the fact that observation agrees with calculation is considered proof of the Big Bang Theory.

Hubble Expansion
It can be observed with telescopes [by measuring the Red-Shift] that all of the galaxies in the Universe (outside the local group of galaxies) appear to be moving away from us, implying that the Universe is expanding. The phenomenon was discovered by Edwin Hubble in 1929, and is generally considered to be proof of the Big Bang Theory.
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12-27-2001, 12:31 AM
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:
Originally posted by Gluk Schmuck:
1. If Eden was such a nice place, why was Satan in there?
2. Maybe if God was a little better at making mind-less minions Eve wouldn't have disobayed him/her.
3. So if Christ died 'for our sins'. Then wouldn't it be sacreligious not to commit the sins that Christ died for? (please answer this question Pinky)
1. Satan can come in many forms. He was cast down on earth when he got kicked out of heaven.

2. Eve and Adam had free will. She also switched God's words around and that's how Satan lead her into a trap. She said that they might die. God said that you will die.

3. Everyone who enters this earth is spiritually dead. What Adam and Eve did, influences us. Alot of things happened as soon as Adam and Eve ate the fruit. You still are going to sin because that event haapen on Earth and we are going to make mistakes now. When you are baptized, you are baptized by grace. Your spirit is no longer dead and would not perish, it has eternal life and is not in Satan's hands anymore because you are with God now, and Satan is defeated.

You have to repent of your sins if you sinned. God said no one is perfect and everyone is going to follow short in his presence.

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12-27-2001, 12:52 AM
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Oh so I am dead spiritrally? Oh dear thats a problem...I mean...my soul is dead *gasp*
(I see the spirit and soul as the same thing, just so you know). That can't be true...for if your soul was dead you couldn't live in the first place. And your conscious can't live without a soul either IMO...so I guess I am not only spiritrually dead...but mentally dead too...Someone quick! Call the mortian! I need a grave poststat!
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