Darwinism vs. Fundamentalism

MudokonOddball · #1 01-13-2002, 11:43 AM

Wow. I just got done watching a Nova video (yes, people actually watch those) on different views on how God put us into existence. I just thought it would be interesting to see other people's views on the matter.
First, some backround
Fundamentalist Christians: Will believe nothing but the Bible, some cases they do not belive that the dinasours existed, and they think that the theories of evolution are evil. (That's the extreme view)

Darwinists: Don't belive there is, was, or ever will be a God of any kind. We purely evolved out of natural selection, and they burn the Bible. (Another extreme view)

I just want to hear your views on the matter, because I may want to majour in Anthropology when I get out of school. Like, maybe you belive in a combination of both, or something completely different with a whole nontraditional story of Adam and Eve.

If this topic doesn't go to sleep within the next few hours, I will post my views as well.
And please, no one-liners!

Thanks a lot (I hope this gets good...)
PS and NO BASHING! I don't want a religious argument on who has the better religion.

One, Two, Middlesboogie · #2 01-13-2002, 12:07 PM

While I don't believe in God, I thought I should point out that not all Darwinists are non God-believers. Creationism, while I don't beleive in it, is totally compatible with evolution.

Edit: 'Nova' videos are often simply repackaged British 'Horizon' documentaries, which are actually quite fascinating.

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: One, Two, Middlesboogie ]

Sydney · #3 01-13-2002, 12:16 PM

Other topics have done this to death, but it's refreshing to see a thread asking for clear-cut honest answers from people without starting the discussion with "Evolution vs Creationism: Debate with a burning fury."

I most certainly believe evolution is the process that results in life's diversity. To me, there's no other plausable explanation that takes into account the overwhelming evidence supporting evolution. I suppose bible literalists are raised with their beliefs, it must be extremely hard for them to deal with something that would hit hard at the core of their faith. It depends on how you interpret the bible (or other holy book of your choosing), you don't have to discard your faith simply because reality interferes.

Gluk Schmuck · #4 01-13-2002, 12:37 PM

:

Originally posted by One, Two, Middlesboogie:
While I don't believe in God, I thought I should point out that not all Darwinists are non God-believers. Creationism, while I don't beleive in it, is totally compatible with evolution.

The creationism putting evolution into motion theory is best analogised to a programmer making an environment and things etc. My friend had this game where you make a animals by selecting parameters then make an environment and the animals interact based on their parameters and one species generally does better than the others, evolution doesn't happen in the game but there are probably games that do involve evolution.
Black & White includes giant beasts which learn from your omnipotent examples, which isn't far off evolution.
*can't wait to watch his giant cow-beast destroy a city*
Just 2 more months...

I like Horizon whenever I watch it...

My views are that the Big Bang happened and that evolution happened and that there is no God. If there was a God it would be called Microsoft and all its wares were cheap and its avatar of hope (

) would be named Xbox!

Steve · #5 01-13-2002, 01:13 PM

well I don't believe in god but I don't go around burning bibles either. I watch Nova(horizon) whenever I can.

Sl'askia · #6 01-13-2002, 01:30 PM

I believe in evolution, yet I do believe there is 'higher life form' (think the Q from Star Trek and you are on the right track). These 'gods' (they are only called that because the lower life forms, us, refer them to that), do use there powers to create, destroy, and to guide us mortal beings.

Demonakos: pifff....you just described us to a tee...

So I believe a verson of you guys exist...

Demonakos: just wait...soon you'll be using our names as if we really DO exist...

*rolls eyes* yeah...right...get out of here

Demonakos: *folds arms* make me

*sigh* and I misplaced my big eraser....

abe22 · #7 01-13-2002, 11:20 PM

I used to say I believed in God because the Religious education teacher wouldn't take no for an answer. She was very scary and all she talked about was people who don't believe in God are going to hell. When I asked a question on how can you prove that god is real she bit my head off (not literally) so I decided I better not piss her off but now that I am in year 10 I don't have to do RE. I am not fussed with religion. I do believe in the evolution theory because it makes more sense.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #8 01-13-2002, 11:49 PM

Um Mudokonball,

Yeah, we do believe in dinosaurs because the story on how they were created and destroyed, is in the bible. God did not make dinosaurs. Satan did. I use to believe in evolution..I don't anymore.

Steve · #9 01-14-2002, 12:39 AM

why can satan make dinosaurs yet not rule earth? it seems like with the ability to create hundreds upon thousands of species apear he could at least stop a flood from killing them.

down with spontaneous generation!

RoN_Rancor · #10 01-14-2002, 01:39 AM

I believe in both evolution and God. I think that the bible is not completely literal. The messages are still important and the stories are more like metaphors than 100% actual fact. I believe that God created the universe through the big bang, and created all the animals of the earth through evolution. Honestly, until a year or two ago, I thought that most Christians believed in both...Guess I was wrong...?

What is a Nova video? Is it like discovery channel or TLC? (I watch those channels)

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: RoN_Rancor ]

MudokonOddball · #11 01-14-2002, 07:02 PM

I think that I've got enough responses...

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR, I am not saying that all fundamentalists are that way, but I was just giving a scale for responses. Like a scale between 1 and 10, and That's what I gave you. 1 and 10. Not, 1 or 10, but somewhere between. I'm sorry if I implied that everyone was one or the other. Because they're not.

Anyways, I was thinking of some more indepth theories on Evolution, and here's my view (please don't hurt me!).

I think that how we evolved from primordial slime is true. As with the dinos. And I also belive that the Big Bang really happenned. (I know that it doesn't say this, but I think that the story before-Genisis should really be "And He said: "BANG!!!" and there was a bang...")
My theory is that the first generation of fully eveolved Homo-Sapiens popped up all over the world, and all of them were dubbed Adams and Eves. All majour religions that I know of have their own story of Adam and Eve, and each region never really had contact with each-other, so it really can't be reincarnations of the same story. However, God probably DID name them Adam and Eve, and we didn't all come from Adam and Eve, because there were lots of Adams and Eves, and other Homo-Sapiens popped up shortly thereafter.
Also, I think, no, KNOW that the Bible was passed around by mere word of mouth for thousands of years, and in at least 2 or more languages. And the fact that people wrote their own portrations(sp?) of The Bible, that it is not entirely correct in some aspects, since humans are imperfect. I don't care if you really ARE a princess or not, you're not any more perfect than him or her, or even I.
In the end, God and Jesus did (or, rather DO) exist, but the story of them was badly told by some possibly exaggerated people about 5 or 6 generations after it really happenned.
I think that the Big Bang, Evolution, Jesus rising from the dead, and Dinosaurs really happenned, and I see no reason for these stories to not coexist.
At least, that's what I think.

Steve · #12 01-14-2002, 07:16 PM

well most modern religions have some basis on summarian and they had an adam and eve story. most of our units of time are based off summarian for example(some modified)/

Statikk HDM · #13 01-14-2002, 07:42 PM

I don't believe in evolution, but entropy. After God created the world, he gave all living life a certain kind of gene structure, and the species that exist now are really degenerated versions of the first species.

MrBoj · #14 01-14-2002, 07:47 PM

you know, its funny you should mention this. Let tell a little story. My brother is a science teacher, a sorta "substitute-for-hire." Once he taught at this yeshiva, which is like a Jewish school for Hassitims. (there are quite a lot of them in Brooklyn) Well, when he taught about the geologic time table, the students were all laughing under their breaths, since the earth is roughly 4.6 bollion years old. Yet according to Judaic teachings, god created the world about 2000 years ago, or something like that. He also said that the regular teachers of the school, who are also Jewish may teach things that are not in the Bible, but they take off their yamaka.

There is a theory that the universe was created for humans, by whatever supreme beings exists in the heavens beyond our mortal world. I am more of a naturalist, but still hold my Christian beliefs. (i won't let them go, not after 8 years of Sunday school.) Anyway, as it goes, the universe, with all of its galaxies, and star clusters and nebulas is all aranged that way to suit humans needs. I personally think this too much of a self-centered view, but then again humans are self-centered.

Danny · #15 01-14-2002, 09:54 PM

When I saw this topic, I resolved to stay out of it, but it was just tooooooooo tempting...

Firstly, I would like to point out that Pinky is lying. The bible does not, in any way, shape, or form, mention the Dinosaurs. I defy her to quote the relevant section...

Secondly, I would like to mention that I have never burned a bible. I would, just to piss the Fundamentalists off, but I don't have one to burn...

Anyway, on with the Row - Umm, Debate...

I believe in Evolution. Well, I don't exactly believe in Evolution, any more than I believe in Death. It happens. Get over it. There may be no direct Proof, but then there is no direct proof of anything. There is Overwhelming Evidence.

Ditto Big Bang.

The simple fact is that there is a lot of Evidence to support the scientific theories, and not a shred of evidence to support the religious ones. Anyone with any evidence, I'd like to hear it. It'd be news to me...

RoN_Rancor · #16 01-14-2002, 09:58 PM

:

My theory is that the first generation of fully eveolved Homo-Sapiens popped up all over the world, and all of them were dubbed Adams and Eves.

I agree. I have always thought that Adam and Eve referred to a group of people rather than literally two individuals.

Phen · #17 01-14-2002, 10:02 PM

I believe in evolution, though I dont believe in god, I believe there is some strange non-living non-thinking matter that caused the big bang.

Tree · #18 01-14-2002, 10:09 PM

I don't know what to believe anymore.

Steve · #19 01-14-2002, 10:15 PM

hey rettick if I ever go to england we can have a bible burning party. it's just about the only book I'd be willing to burn.

One, Two, Middlesboogie · #20 01-15-2002, 03:48 PM

I've got a Bible and a box of matches, but I don't want to contribute to global warming. It wouldn't actually benefit anybody either.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #21 01-15-2002, 06:37 PM

:

Originally posted by Rettick:
When I saw this topic, I resolved to stay out of it, but it was just tooooooooo tempting...

Firstly, I would like to point out that Pinky is lying. The bible does not, in any way, shape, or form, mention the Dinosaurs. I defy her to quote the relevant section...

Secondly, I would like to mention that I have never burned a bible. I would, just to piss the Fundamentalists off, but I don't have one to burn...

Anyway, on with the Row - Umm, Debate...

I believe in Evolution. Well, I don't exactly believe in Evolution, any more than I believe in Death. It happens. Get over it. There may be no direct Proof, but then there is no direct proof of anything. There is Overwhelming Evidence.

Ditto Big Bang.

The simple fact is that there is a lot of Evidence to support the scientific theories, and not a shred of evidence to support the religious ones. Anyone with any evidence, I'd like to hear it. It'd be news to me...

Um, no. I am not lying. You just don't understand the bible and what it's telling you. The bible talks in spirit. But you won't know that either. If you reas the bible, and stop making such a fool of yourself saying that it's not in there, then you would know in the bible, Dinosaurs, are not called "Dinosaurs" in the bible. They have a name which is in hebrew, I forgot what it means but I will look it up. Did have life before Genesis also. It's in Isaiah and Job and ezekial.

You burn a bible? See what God does to ya if you do. You dare to test his wrath? If you burn a bible you would not make me mad. That's between you and God, not me.

There is evidence that the evolution theory is wrong and stupid.

It would be unreasonable to content that man is merely an advanced fish or ape which has evolved to this present state. Only man has a conscience, a sense of right and wrong, the ability to consider the meaning of life and death, to comtemplate his orgin and destiny. Only man can reason and make plans to improve his conditions physically and spiritually. Only man can laugh and cry. The list of differences between man and other creature can be multiplied. All these qualities of the spirit could come only from a Higher Spirit. It is unreasonable to assume that man's spiritual capacity was imparted to him by the animal kingdom. No creature can give to another that which he does not posess. Thus, it is not possible that man's spiritual nature evolved from animals who have no spiritual nature.

How can you have an animal cell and a plant cell when both the cells go into mitosis, making the same cells over and over?

Where did all the atoms come from? They did'nt come from thin air ya know.

Steve · #22 01-15-2002, 07:07 PM

how do you know that animals do not have religion? we can not judge those who we are not. we're the only animals that change to meet out eviroment HA. there was a group of monkeys that had to move to a new place (most likly because of us "highly spiritule" beigns) and the only food there to eat was yams. they would get sick if they didn't wash them, no food that they had ever eaten needed to be washed but they still washed them.

Bad for the enviroment eh? well could we recycle them into some scientific book explaining big bang/evolution or something like that?

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #23 01-15-2002, 07:35 PM

:

Originally posted by Steve:
how do you know that animals do not have religion? we can not judge those who we are not. we're the only animals that change to meet out eviroment HA. there was a group of monkeys that had to move to a new place (most likly because of us "highly spiritule" beigns) and the only food there to eat was yams. they would get sick if they didn't wash them, no food that they had ever eaten needed to be washed but they still washed them.

Bad for the enviroment eh? well could we recycle them into some scientific book explaining big bang/evolution or something like that?

Animals don't have a religion. I'm not judging I'm just saying what's true.Of course monkeys can leave there environment when it's bad, and care for there young and stuff, but they can't protest and sign papers stating save the rainforest. They can't change there food chain. If a shark eats macroon and they die out, that shark is going to be like "What am I going to eat?" When they can eat other organisms. They don't have that type of mind set. We can change our diet. It's like us, eating breakfasr. If the box of cheerios runs out, we can eat toast but a shark is like "I'm going to starve!" You know what I mean?
Chimps are highly intelligent, but we have particular chararistics that they don't.

You said monkeys can change there environment, what about other animals?

If I can't judge what I am not, then why don't you tell Darwin not to judge and make think these theories are true, when he wasn't there and then that would make you judging also because you have the same views.

When I meant high spiritually, I mean God. Please follow to what I'm saying.

Danny · #24 01-15-2002, 08:01 PM

:

Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR:
Um, no. I am not lying. You just don't understand the bible and what it's telling you. The bible talks in spirit. But you won't know that either. If you reas the bible, and stop making such a fool of yourself saying that it's not in there, then you would know in the bible, Dinosaurs, are not called "Dinosaurs" in the bible. They have a name which is in hebrew, I forgot what it means but I will look it up. Did have life before Genesis also. It's in Isaiah and Job and ezekial.(1)

You burn a bible? See what God does to ya if you do. You dare to test his wrath? If you burn a bible you would not make me mad. That's between you and God, not me.(2)

There is evidence that the evolution theory is wrong and stupid.(3)

It would be unreasonable to content that man is merely an advanced fish or ape which has evolved to this present state. Only man has a conscience(4), a sense of right and wrong(5), the ability to consider the meaning of life and death(6), to comtemplate his orgin and destiny(7). Only man can reason and make plans to improve his conditions physically and spiritually(8). Only man can laugh and cry(9). The list of differences between man and other creature can be multiplied(10). All these qualities of the spirit could come only from a Higher Spirit(11). It is unreasonable to assume that man's spiritual capacity was imparted to him by the animal kingdom. No creature can give to another that which he does not posess. Thus, it is not possible that man's spiritual nature evolved from animals who have no spiritual nature.(12)

How can you have an animal cell and a plant cell when both the cells go into mitosis, making the same cells over and over?(13)

Where did all the atoms come from? They did'nt come from thin air ya know.(14)[/B]

1. The parts you are referring to are so vague they could be taken to mean almost anything. How many bible scolars can you name who described Giant Lizards before Dinosaur Bones were discovered?

2. I've done all kind of 'Blasphemous'[sp] things in my life, and I have led a fairly happy life so far. Either God isn't up there, or he's a less uptight guy than you seem to believe...

3. The why, O Great One, do you persist in not telling us what this 'evidence' is?

4. How do you know?

5. How do you know?

6. How do you know?

7. How do you know?

8. How do you know?

9. Your biological knowledge is appalling.

10. As can the list of differences between the Sparrow and other creatures. What's your point?

11. And why is that?

12. Whoa, slow down, Professor! Could you go back to the bit where you outlined the proof you have that other animals have no spirit, please? I can't seem to find it anywhere in your post...

13. And you claim to be a biologist? Your claims are become less substantial as the days go by...

14.

Okay, that's ENOUGH! This is the fourth time you've asked this now, and I answered you every time you asked! I even started a new topic about it, for crying out loud! Now stop pretending to be ignorant and LISTEN to what I say! Okay? It isn't difficult...

One last thing: Please answer to this with some kind of counter-argument. Don't just say "Whatever", "You're not making any sense", or "You're making a fool of yourself", as is your wont...

Danny · #25 01-15-2002, 08:12 PM

:

Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR:
Animals don't have a religion. I'm not judging I'm just saying what's true.(1) Of course monkeys can leave there environment when it's bad, and care for there young and stuff, but they can't protest and sign papers stating save the rainforest.(2) They can't change there food chain.(3) If a shark eats macroon and they die out, that shark is going to be like "What am I going to eat?" When they can eat other organisms. They don't have that type of mind set. We can change our diet. It's like us, eating breakfasr. If the box of cheerios runs out, we can eat toast but a shark is like "I'm going to starve!" You know what I mean?
Chimps are highly intelligent, but we have particular chararistics that they don't.(4)

You said monkeys can change there environment, what about other animals?(5)

If I can't judge what I am not, then why don't you tell Darwin not to judge and make think these theories are true, when he wasn't there and then that would make you judging also because you have the same views.(6)

1. And how do you know this is true?

2. Neither can Illiterate Humans. Does that make them any less human? What about Children, do they have no spirit just because they can't sign some papers? Besides, how do you know they don't protest? You can't understand their language, so you have no idea what they do or say...

3. Ok, I am now convinced that you have made up you 'high scores' in Biology, because if you were good at Biology you would know that Chimpanzees do NOT have a single food, and that they DO adapt. Ditto for sharks, and for most animals.

4. They have particular characteristics that we don't, too. What's your point?

5. In what way does being able to change your environment mean that you have a spirit?

6. And you were there, were you?

Steve · #26 01-15-2002, 08:23 PM

for changing the enviroment: overpopulation changes the enviroment(not a very good exammple), beavers change the enviroment, all nesting animals create small enviroment for their young, there are thousands of things ants do. I suppose you want examples only of social evolutions and not biological(the monkeys is the best example I know of exept for ravens). in respons for the judging I meant that we don't know how they think so we have no idea whats going on in thier brains.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #27 01-15-2002, 09:31 PM

:

Originally posted by Rettick:
1. And how do you know this is true?

2. Neither can Illiterate Humans. Does that make them any less human? What about Children, do they have no spirit just because they can't sign some papers? Besides, how do you know they don't protest? You can't understand their language, so you have no idea what they do or say...

3. Ok, I am now convinced that you have made up you 'high scores' in Biology, because if you were good at Biology you would know that Chimpanzees do NOT have a single food, and that they DO adapt. Ditto for sharks, and for most animals.

4. They have particular characteristics that we don't, too. What's your point?

5. In what way does being able to change your environment mean that you have a spirit?

6. And you were there, were you?

Okay, I'm convinced you don't get A's and B's because you can't comprehend what people are saying! I was stating it as an example, I already knew that they don't have a food chain. Your not intelligent........

How would you know the evolution theory is just? In your face!

And what is up with that children example? It's not relating to anything that I am trying to state. Animals and humans are different. Do you see a shark going to pre-school? So your statement right there, did not win that argument.

Wow Rettick, I thought you can understand anything since you know everything. Oh well...

Well atleast my less substantial claims are realistic!

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

Sl'askia · #28 01-15-2002, 09:42 PM

come on you two...your endless bickering is pointless. Neither of you will give way on this subject so way bother? And dont start that 'humans are not animals' bit again. When it all comes down to it...we are all related in some way to every other living thing...no matter what you believe in.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #29 01-15-2002, 09:46 PM

Yeah, your right. I apologize. What were we talking about at the beginning of the post?

Danny · #30 01-15-2002, 09:56 PM

:

Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR:
Okay, I'm convinced you don't get A's and B's because you can't comprehend what people are saying! I was stating it as an example, I already knew that they don't have a food chain.(1) Your not intelligent........(2)

How would you know the evolution theory is just? In your face!(3)

And what is up with that children example? It's not relating to anything that I am trying to state. Animals and humans are different. Do you see a shark going to pre-school?(4) So your statement right there, did not win that argument.(5)

Wow Rettick, I thought you can understand anything since you know everything. Oh well...(6)

Well atleast my less substantial claims are realistic!(7)

1. I didn't even mention the Food Chain. Pay attention.

2. I will ignore this comment, and thus scuttle your attempts to turn this into a juvenile insult-hurling competition...

3. Umm... Because of the Evidence, maybe?

4. Do you honestly think that they would let a shark into pre-school? Your example prove nothing except that you clearly do not listen to anything anyone says...

5. At least I made a statement that was relevant, realistic, and reasonable. Let's see you attempt even 2 of those at once...

6. Nobody's perfect...

7. I would comment on this, but I can't see the screen very well from where I'm rolling around on the floor laughing...

Now can you please stop trying to score cheap points against me and actually defend your own argument. Where is the Evidence for Creationism that we've heard so much about?