Disunity about game engines

[Varrok]

MOD EDIT: This thread was split off after the quoted post.

Fun Fact: New 'N' Tasty was going to have it's own engine before they scrapped it. The AbeHD Pre-alpha was rendered in that Engine.

That fact isn't that fun when you consider how the game turned out to look much worse than on this pre-alpha video because they switched to unity.

[Holy Sock]

That fact isn't that fun when you consider how the game turned out to look much worse than on this pre-alpha video because they switched to unity.

Is that the reason? Isn't it more of a conscious aesthetic change?

[Varrok]

Maybe, but not likely. The bloom "lightning" is amateur-type-of-easy to add in Unity.

EDIT:
As said in the old Matthewmatosis video

[Holy Sock]

Yeah, no, what I mean is that I don't think it's something that's inherently wrong with Unity. They made the decision to use those bloom and dirty filter features but surely they could have replicated the original atmosphere if they wanted.

[Varrok]

How can you be so sure? They couldn't even replicate the original animations and controls (the original control scheme was so bad that they had to add another one to make up for that)

[Mr. Molluck]

Speaking of Unity, the people who made it recently made a short film with it called "Adam":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44M7JsKqwow

The film is ridiculously impressive, visually. And it's with this engine ALONE. Maybe Oddworld's trying to push Unity to its limits this time, instead of just redoing the world in a prettier way?

[Manco]

How can you be so sure? They couldn't even replicate the original animations and controls (the original control scheme was so bad that they had to add another one to make up for that)

All of which can be put down to poor aesthetic or design choice.

[Holy Sock]

How can you be so sure? They couldn't even replicate the original animations and controls (the original control scheme was so bad that they had to add another one to make up for that)

Just going by what we can see the animations look like sped up versions of the 2012 build.

For example the game Inside is built in Unity and although not as graphically demanding it shows that the bright bloom of NnT isn't necessarily a problem with the engine but decisions made by the development team.

[Varrok]

All of which can be put down to poor aesthetic or design choice.

And how exactly is that supposed to reinforce anybody's trust in the "devs surely could recreate the original atmosphere if they wanted"?

Speaking of Unity, the people who made it recently made a short film with it called "Adam":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44M7JsKqwow

The film is ridiculously impressive, visually. And it's with this engine ALONE. Maybe Oddworld's trying to push Unity to its limits this time, instead of just redoing the world in a prettier way?

Of course. But it's rendered using the top-notch GPU that:
1) Might not be neccessary to render such graphics if it was on another engine (e.g. UE4)
2) Most of the gamers don't have. Optimization in hi-tier graphics is not equal to optimization in low and mid-tier graphics. NnT was definitely NOT pretty as the movie you presented, obviously.

[Manco]

And how exactly is that supposed to reinforce anybody's trust in the "devs surely could recreate the original atmosphere if they wanted"?

It’s not. It’s pointing out that you’re shifting the blame to the engine for things you didn’t like, rather than the devs not implementing them in the way you’d like.

Poor animation is the fault of the animator. Poor lighting is the fault of the lighting artist. Poor controls are the fault of the game designer. None of that necessarily falls on the engine.

[Varrok]

It’s not. It’s pointing out that you’re shifting the blame to the engine for things you didn’t like, rather than the devs not implementing them in the way you’d like.

Poor animation is the fault of the animator. Poor lighting is the fault of the lighting artist. Poor controls are the fault of the game designer. None of that necessarily falls on the engine.

Maybe. Piss-poor optimization might be also fault of the guy who optimized the game (if they had a guy like that). That might also be the case in e.g. Roundabout, which is a great game, but despite having a very simple indie low poly graphic style, runs like shit on my PC that runs Crysis 2 on medium with no perfomance issues.

Oh and Wasteland 2, which looks like a game from 2006 and runs terribly. That might be also the developer's fault.

And Grow Home, which lags even on PS4. Probably developer's fault.

What's up with Unity games running terribly while still looking not really that beautiful? Is all of that a bunch of coincidences? It's like basically each Unity game I play it runs like that, no matter which hardware I try playing it on.

[Havoc]

It’s not. It’s pointing out that you’re shifting the blame to the engine for things you didn’t like, rather than the devs not implementing them in the way you’d like.

Poor animation is the fault of the animator. Poor lighting is the fault of the lighting artist. Poor controls are the fault of the game designer. None of that necessarily falls on the engine.

This, pretty much. Performance wise JAW pushed the Unity engine to its absolute limits. At the time they took an engine that had a reputation for being a hobbyist tool and made something pretty impressive with it. But any gripes with lighting, animation, and overal aesthetics isn't due to Unity. Unity is nothing but a tool. And I don't know enough about performance to judge in that department, but for me NnT has always run perfectly fine.

I mean I'd love to see Soulstorm on Unreal 4 but Unity is good enough if they just tweak the look and feel of the world.

What's up with Unity games running terribly while still looking not really that beautiful? Is all of that a bunch of coincidences? It's like basically each Unity game I play it runs like that, no matter which hardware I try playing it on.

Because, again, Unity is a cheap hobbyist engine that anyone can work with and doesn't require a ton of knowledge or experience. As a result, games are often poorly optimized due to a lack of knowledge and skill in that department (or not even knowing the game could run better in the first place).

[Manco]

Maybe. Piss-poor optimization might be also fault of the guy who optimized the game (if they had a guy like that).

Congratulations, you hit the nail on the head. Well done!

(read Havoc’s post)

[Varrok]

You guys are now contradicting itself, either you agree with me that unity is a shit hobbbyist engine or that it's a professional game engine that allows for beautiful graphical rendering, like in that Adam movie.

[Manco]

There’s a difference between a cheap hobbyist engine and a shit hobbyist engine. The engine is cheap and easy to pick up for beginners; that doesn’t mean it can’t give good quality output.

[Varrok]

I didn't say you can't make a good game on a shit engine. I even said the opposite thing.

[FrustratedAssassin]

He said you can make a good game on Unity, but it will suffer from bad performance. Not to mention the fact that Unity is outdated and all around bad.

It's like the GameBryo of this decade.

[Manco]

I didn't say you can't make a good game on a shit engine.

But you’re blaming all the things you dislike about NnT on Unity, claiming that every Unity game runs badly, and going out of your way to make out that Unity is a bad engine.

He said you can make a good game on Unity, but it will suffer from bad performance.

I even said the opposite thing.

And Havoc is pointing out that this is less to do with the engine and more to do with the people using it not optimizing their games well. Because with a lower cost of entry you get a wider demographic of developer using the engine.

Not to mention the fact that Unity is outdated and all around bad.

No it isn’t?

[Varrok]

@FA Yeah, pretty much. Forgive my colloquialism, if it made my points less clear.

But you’re blaming all the things you dislike about NnT on Unity, claiming that every Unity game runs badly, and going out of your way to make out that Unity is a bad engine.

Because it is. I never said it isn't. The issues with Unity *had* impact of NnT overall quality. It's of course not the only reason behind this, no. One of many. Many many.

And Havoc is pointing out that this is less to do with the engine and more to do with the people using it not optimizing their games well. Because with a lower cost of entry you get a wider demographic of developer using the engine.

Havoc also said he's not an expert in terms of knowing optimization. And I also said that any bigger Unity game I played provided poor perfomance compared to graphical fidelity

No it isn’t?

Yes, sir, it is.

[Alf Shall Rise]

Assassin's Creed Unity was glitchy as hell and it wasn't made with Unity.

Not sure what this has to do with the conversation at all, but still. Something to think about. You know?

[Varrok]

The funny thing is, Unity wouldn't handle Assassin's Creed Unity game.

[Manco]

Because it is. I never said it isn't. The issues with Unity *had* impact of NnT overall quality. It's of course not the only reason behind this, no. One of many. Many many.

And yet the only issues with NnT that you’ve described are issues with the aesthetic choices made by the developer. That’s not evidence of Unity being bad, and you’ve not highlighted any issues in NnT that are inherently a problem with the engine.

Havoc also said he's not an expert in terms of knowing optimization.

And you are, I take it.

And I also said that any bigger Unity game I played provided poor perfomance compared to graphical fidelity

“Bigger” games made by seasoned triple-A studios? Or “bigger” games made by indie teams? I can guess which one is more likely to have worse optimized games.

Even then, the bigger Unity games I’ve played have had no issues. So that’s my anecdotal evidence against yours.

Yes, sir, it is.

I’m sure you can tell me how, then.

[Varrok]

And yet the only issues with NnT that you’ve described are issues with the aesthetic choices made by the developer. That’s not evidence of Unity being bad, and you’ve not highlighted any issues in NnT that are inherently a problem with the engine.

Animations, lightning etc. yes. But not perfomance, which is like the most important thing in game engines. But hey, we can just forget about this, right?

And you are, I take it.

Enough to say that a game has too high requirements in contrast of the visuals it gives. And it happened far too many times in Unity games to consider it a coincidence.

“Bigger” games made by seasoned triple-A studios? Or “bigger” games made by indie teams? I can guess which one is more likely to have worse optimized games.

Well, Grow Home was made by Ubisoft's indie division, and Wasteland 2 was made by Inxile, which is pretty much comparable to OWI if not more experienced (they made more games than OWI, of comparable scale).

You don't think there's no reason triple-A studios *aren't* using Unity, if it's such a good engine? Also, it's pretty cheap.

Even then, the bigger Unity games I’ve played have had no issues. So that’s my anecdotal evidence against yours.

A game engine that runs well on one hardware meeting the requirements and running badly on other hardware meeting the requirements is a poorly made engine. You're thinking I'm lying when I say it runs poorly on the PCs/consoles I tried it on? I'm not shitting on it for my pleasure, quite the opposite: I wish I had no reason to complain.

I’m sure you can tell me how, then.

You're basically proving it yourself

[Holy Sock]

Did NnT run that badly on PC? I remember hearing a lot of positive performance reviews when it first came out.

The Xbox One version had irritating framerate issues, imo.

[Alf Shall Rise]

I don't remember any significant issues with NnT while first playing it on PC. Nothing related to the PC, at least. Only thing I can think of was the goddamn meat saws but that was present on all ports, right?

[Varrok]

Define "that badly". It wasn't a god-awful perfomance, but it was far from good. It chopped on a PC that ran MGS Ground Zeroes on medium smoothly. Didn't matter much if I played NnT on low, medium or high presets, the framerate wasn't satisfactory enough

Only thing I can think of was the goddamn meat saws but that was present on all ports, right?

All ports, not the fault of the engine

[Slog Bait]

Hi I have NnT on PC running Linux and the only issues I have are a couple of screens with textures that didn't render and the occasional lag in poorly optimized areas. It ran wonderfully and at a good framerate otherwise.

Tfw Varrok doesn't understand the purpose of an engine

[Varrok]

Hi I have NnT on PC running Linux and the only issues I have are a couple of screens with textures that didn't render and the occasional lag in poorly optimized areas. It ran wonderfully and at a good framerate otherwise.

Oh gosh no, I tried running NnT on Linux on the same PC I'm running it on Windows and it looked much worse and played even worse. All the drivers were up to date etc.

Tfw Varrok doesn't understand the purpose of an engine

Oh I don't now, do I?

[Manco]

Animations, lightning etc. yes. But not perfomance, which is like the most important thing in game engines. But hey, we can just forget about this, right?

There’s a lot of people who didn’t have any performance issues with NnT. Just because you in particular did (and the vocal minority on the Steam forums thread you’ll no doubt link), doesn’t mean the problem is widespread, or that it’s even the engine’s fault.

Enough to say that a game has too high requirements in contrast of the visuals it gives. And it happened far too many times in Unity games to consider it a coincidence.

Coincidentally, every Unity game you’ve played was developed by a small team, can’t be a coincidence right?

Well, Grow Home was made by Ubisoft's indie division, and Wasteland 2 was made by Inxile, which is pretty much comparable to OWI if not more experienced (they made more games than OWI, of comparable scale).

Strangely enough there’s been a distinct lack of outcry over those games and their performance – checking up on Metacritic reviews and nobody seems to have mentioned it at all!

You don't think there's no reason triple-A studios *aren't* using Unity, if it's such a good engine? Also, it's pretty cheap.

Oh, I see you actually blanked the previous discussion about Unity from your brain. Let me reiterate: because almost all bigger developers are now at a point where they’re heavily invested in their own proprietary engines, or they’ve already purchased licenses for other commercial engines. There’s a widening gap in the industry between indie and triple-A, and engine use is one of the telltale differences between the two.

And even then, small teams within larger studios are using Unity.

A game engine that runs well on one hardware meeting the requirements and running badly on other hardware meeting the requirements is a poorly made engine. You're thinking I'm lying when I say it runs poorly on the PCs/consoles I tried it on? I'm not shitting on it for my pleasure, quite the opposite: I wish I had no reason to complain.

Except that PC is an absolute quagmire of a platform in general, and pretty much any game ever made can throw up bugs, performance issues, and have varying levels of performance. A lot of that can be fixed by QA testing on as large a scale as possible, on as wide a variety of hardware as possible, and then optimizing as much as possible.

Guess who has the least amount of resources available to do all of that? The same people who are most likely to take advantage of Unity’s low cost: indies!

You're basically proving it yourself

That’s a bullshit non-answer. Give me a real one.

[Crashpunk]

NnT ran really well on my end. Pretty much flawlessly.