Reboot

[Holy Sock]

Ah, no, I was saying that the characters essentially had little personality in the first game. As in the characters were very basic. Whilst in Abe's Exoddus they actually became characters. As in it was their first game therefore they hadn't really spent a lot of time on the characters and story.

And I'm not just even talking about characters as in Abe, Alf, etc. Almost every speaking part in AE felt like a fully fledged character whilst in the first game only Abe sort of had any chacterisation - and it wasn't particularly strong.

What I'm saying is that they seemed to figure out the personalities and how to create better characters in AE. I imagine this was partly due to the fact that they could afford to work on it since they already had the engine built. Whilst in AO the story and characters probably had to take a bit of a back seat because they were busy creating the game itself.

So to me it seems like they figured out who they wanted Abe to be, what personalities the Glukkons, Sligs, and Mudokons have in AE and NnT seems to be very much in line with that. Except that Molluck is still pretty much the big bad scary Glukkon.

[Slog Bait]

That's almost exactly what I said, except I had the point of AO's portrayal was fine because it was Abe's melancholy account of the events of the game and it flowed well into the characterization and world building AE gave us. The story AO told didn't even require any major character development, but there was development. Just because it wasn't over exaggerated, in your face, and goofy, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

It was kind of obvious Abe was really bummed out the entire time he was remembering the events of AO.

Not to mention, the way AO is presented makes it so regardless of Abe's true personality, it tries to put the player in his shoes, so it works.


Actually, when I think about it, based on what I've seen, NNT is more of a third person view of the story and AO is a first person view of the story. Which, explains why there wasn't much going on with the other characters in AO. They mumbled and looked intimidating and were wise and mystical with masks and shit. It also explained why his actions weren't nearly as goofy, considering I highly doubt he sees his nerdiness. Also, things always seem way more grim when you're experiencing them first hand instead of looking in on things.

[Renney77]

I like realistic settings (When I say that I don't mean non-fiction.), for everything if it be movies/games/books. Things can be funny in real life but I just prefer things to not be forced funny.
I laugh at comedies but I will never watch one twice. Like I would with a detailed realistic setting.
My point is, when I was first told about AO by a friend. My imagination ran wild! Just imagine somebody describe AO without ever seeing it and that is what it was like. It was such a scary tale and seemed so unique!
I played the game and was impressed, it lived up to the dark setting.
Then I saw AE and cringed eveytime a glukkon spoke... They seemed so much cooler in AO.
Then I saw cut scenes from MO and just stopped, I couldn't watch that crap. It was a nice story, but nothing new to be honest.
So yes my point is. I just want to see a darker setting, not too much but just like the original AO. But if Lorne goes funky stuff then I'll probably still play it, but It just won't be what I want. But sometimes you don't get what you want so whatever

Just to let you know. I love the look of the re-make, I know it sounds like I'm ranting but the only game I don;t like is MO. Thanks for reading, bye!

[Bullet Magnet]

There's a difference between characterisation and slapstick. If, high on self-confidence, Abe then stumbles inelegantly before recovering, that is characterisation, it's more subtle, and still brings him back to reality. Falling over is slapstick. There is a place for slapstick, but I haven't seen the game yet, so I can't judge whether it's right or not.

[Phylum]

Actually, when I think about it, based on what I've seen, NNT is more of a third person view of the story and AO is a first person view of the story.

The story in AO and AE were done in totally different styles. NnT follows from AE and MO, because that's what Oddworld is. They have made the decision to tell the story in a different way.

[Holy Sock]

Well, not really Slogbait. Sure, that's they way they told the story in AO but as NnT is showing you can tell the exact same story yet inject some of the goofy personality that became integral to Oddworld in AE. It's not really about story telling perspective. You can still have a first person perspective yet still have characters who are more than just mumbling archetypes.

AO had some slapstick jokes and a button dedicated to in game farting. AE established actualy personalities for the creatures of Oddworld.

From what I can tell about NnT it seems they've added a couple of goofy moments in the cutscenes, yet still tell pretty much the exact same story in the same way, and have transferred the character personalities into the gameplay - because that's what Sligs & Mudokons are supposed to be. And they've eve added a couple of moments of dark moments that are also a pat of the series.

I mean it looks like they've pretty much captured the original yet included the elements that make Oddworld, Oddworld - since the original game feels like they were still figuring out what they wanted Oddworld to be. So it makes sense that NnT carries some of the humour and personalities that was found in AE onwards.

I mean if they had made Molluck a completely comedic character like the AE Glukkons I think you'd have more of a point here, Slog.

[Slog Bait]

I have no idea why I bother trying to discuss this shit when I know the people trying to counter what I'm saying aren't listening to what I'm saying.

Hey Phylum, my last post (excluding this one) already outlined the fact that the stories in AO and AE were told totally different. I explained why I thought it worked for AE and not AO, and why it bums me out that NNT took this approach. When I said that, I had the epiphany that that decision switched the perspective of what we saw from Abe's POV to a viewer looking in on the world, which is what AE and MO both did.

I obviously don't like that decision or I wouldn't be bitching about it right now.

Sock, yes really. The story itself is still told from a first person POV, but what you actually see has become you looking in on the world rather than seeing things as Abe no doubt saw things. In AO, you could hardly make out what any of the other characters were saying in the cutscenes. It focused specifically on the grand reveal without focusing on the other characters because it only showed what was most important to Abe at the time.

They don't tell the story in the same way. The visuals were a huge part of the story and they've changed them enough that it changes the tone of the game. I haven't played the full game yet, I can't judge the rest of the game, but first impressions are everything. You know exactly how they plan to go about the rest of the game just with how they present the beginning alone.

I don't even know what makes Oddworld Oddworld anymore. Shitty slapstick with some dark overtones that got dimmed over time with over exaggerated characters taking away from the severity of the story therefore lessening the impact on the viewer and hit or miss game design. The only thing I'm still on board for is the creature design and general world building because I can't deny everything still looks cool as fuck.

Molluck still comes across as an asshole with anger issues compared to his cool collected self in AO. Call that flat and personality less or not, it was still far more intimidating.

[Phylum]

I don't even know what makes Oddworld Oddworld anymore. Shitty slapstick with some dark overtones that got dimmed over time with over exaggerated characters taking away from the severity of the story therefore lessening the impact on the viewer and hit or miss game design.

That's what Oddworld is though. It's a satirical take on the world. It has exaggerated characters, and listening to Lorne the slapstick comedic elements are obviously important to him.

The things you hate are actually what Oddworld has been since around 1998, and probably even earlier in Lorne's head. It's not complaining about things that could be better at this point. It's creative differences between you and the people making the games.

[Slog Bait]

It didn't start that way. It gradually became that over time from our point of view.

At no point did I say I hated it. There are a lot of things about the series I don't like. I think the slapstick is incredibly inappropriate at times and that's what makes it so cringe worthy. The actual story itself at it's core makes me roll my eyes. Major retcons piss me off no matter which series I'm following. Etc etc. But hey, I actually like the over exaggerated cartooniness of the characters in NNT's intro because it gives them so much life. even if it's a false sense of life. my initially impression was "wow they sure are lively" but i already bitched about how i realized that overexaggeration doesnt necessarily mean better portrayal

What this whole discussion has been about and everything I've been saying is "I'm disappointed by the decision to change how the story was told in the remake of the game that established the series because I don't think it does the story justice." I'd like to see these character portrayals in a remake of AE. It's much more suiting for that game, and I wouldn't mind seeing them continue to be portrayed like that in later installments. For AO and NNT, I don't think it works, and it actually takes away from the experience.

I think that last bit might be more valid if NNT wasn't a remake of an already existing game. It's more like creative differences between the team then and now and me just whining because my expectations for NNT were different. TBH I don't think I'd be so disappointed if I weren't assured the tone wasn't different when I expressed concern in the past.

[Phylum]

Ok.

[Slog Bait]

Such a conversationalist

[Varrok]

I don't usually agree with people, but I agree with what Slog Bait said

[Auriel]

As I understand it, the original concept for Munch's Oddysee bears little resemblance to the product that was released for the Xbox. With that in mind, I'd expect a reboot of MO to be an almost entirely new game.
As far as the 2D vs 3D argument is concerned, even though I've grown to love the original games (much more so than the MO that ended up being released if I may say so!) I have to disagree with the people looking toward the quintology being continued in 2D, even if only as far as MO is concerned. It's understandable that at this point in the series people find themselves preferring the older games but IIRC Lorne himself stated at one point or another that the reason he chose this format in the first place is the limitations that existed within late 90s console hardware. In a nutshell, Oddworld may have succeeded at being 2D but it was not meant to be 2D and as far as world-building and general expansion of the series is concerned I can see these goals being accomplished far more effectively in three dimensions.

[Renney77]

I agree, AO and AE should be the only 2D games for oddworld at the moment.

[OANST]

But again, and this is a really important distinction, the question isn't whether or not Oddworld can work in a 3D world. Stranger's Wrath proves that it can. The question is whether the developers can create a compelling 3D game world without going massively over budget, and going out of business.

[pupbenny]

Actually this sounds like quite a good idea.

[Manco]

But again, and this is a really important distinction, the question isn't whether or not Oddworld can work in a 3D world. Stranger's Wrath proves that it can. The question is whether the developers can create a compelling 3D game world without going massively over budget, and going out of business.

I’m curious to see if this is possible. There’s certainly been a large investment in 3D assets for New n Tasty, despite it sticking to a side scrolling perspective. Would a fully 3D Oddworld platformer require a significantly larger investment? If it was a relatively short, focused and linear affair (instead of huge swathes of empty free roaming space like MO), then it might be feasible.

Of course there would still be an increase in complexity for puzzles, controls and AI, which would inevitably have a knock-on effect on production time and QA costs, so it’s unlikely that we’ll see a full 3D Oddworld game as JAW’s next project. But if NnT and the inevitable AE remake do well, we could see something larger on the horizon.

[Auriel]

But again, and this is a really important distinction, the question isn't whether or not Oddworld can work in a 3D world. Stranger's Wrath proves that it can. The question is whether the developers can create a compelling 3D game world without going massively over budget, and going out of business.

As far as the question of whether OWI is financially capable of developing such a game is concerned, we'll probably have to see how well New'n'Tasty as well as the AE reboot which I presume will follow it fare.

[Holy Sock]

I don't know. The idea that Oddworld is a serious, deep, dark story just seems silly. I mean even in the original you had a couple of moments of slapstick and a fart button.

But Slog Bait, I disagree with your assessment of the perspective. The reason nothing was really developed wasn't because we were seeing things from Abe's perspective in the first game - but just because they were underdeveloped.

I mean even if the comedy was less abundant in AO it was still there and the fact that Exoddus came out only 9 months after the first should tell you that they are the type of characters that Oddworld is really about.

There needs to be a consistency here. If the tone of AE is the tone of Oddworld it makes no sense to take a step back with NnT. It's fine that they hadn't figured out Oddworld in the first game but it doesn't make sense to then take that step back in the remake 17 years on - when the tone of Oddworld has been pretty firmly established: satirical characters within a bleak world. Comedy and darkness.

I mean if you'd want to turn Oddworld into a dark and serious tale then the dramatic quality needs to be much better than it is. You'd need great dialogue and great dramatic characterisation otherwise it's going to feel like a shitty, cheesy dramatic video game that are a dime a dozen. What's dark about Oddworld is it's themes and world which I think are highlighted better when the characters that populate it - bar a few scary villains - are being rather comedic and silly.

I do think that AO had a great sense of mysticism which should be maintained - but I'd chalk that up to the fact that AO was about Abe's destiny and AE was about saving more Mudokons and helping some spirits.

[Manco]

I don't know. The idea that Oddworld is a serious, deep, dark story just seems silly. I mean even in the original you had a couple of moments of slapstick and a fart button.

I stopped reading right there.

Yes, Oddworld frequently features comedic elements. It also strongly condemns capitalism; frequently frames industrialization as villainous and destructive; and uses pollution, unethical business practice, pharmaceutical experimentation on animals, slavery and destruction of indigenous culture as story elements.

I think all it takes is a browse through the concept art produced for the series to see the tone that OWI wanted to create for the world. There has always been an element of slapstick humor, but this was often used in small doses and never defined the overall mood of the series.

[Holy Sock]

I stopped reading right there.

Yes, Oddworld frequently features comedic elements. It also strongly condemns capitalism; frequently frames industrialization as villainous and destructive; and uses pollution, unethical business practice, pharmaceutical experimentation on animals, slavery and destruction of indigenous culture as story elements.

I think all it takes is a browse through the concept art produced for the series to see the tone that OWI wanted to create for the world. There has always been an element of slapstick humor, but this was often used in small doses and never defined the overall mood of the series.

Kind of makes your reply rather pointless though, doesn't it? Since i sort of elaborated the point in more detail further down... which doesn't really contradict your point despite what you gathered from my first sentence....

[Slog Bait]

So you're saying because AE had a lighter tone and focused more on the characters, and that it came after AO, that going back to AO's story telling for the remake of AO would be stepping backwards?

It's a continuation of a story. By telling AO like AE was told, there's little to no visual progression and for people who's introduction to the series is NNT, it's not going to have that flow that we got playing AO to AE.

It's a tragedy. Tragedy and comedy go hand in hand. Of course there's going to be humour, but there was a good balance of humour vs crisis in AO and AE. AE allowed more humour and the way the story was told didn't let that humour hinder it any. NNT however, following the story of AO, tells it in a different way that honestly feels like you're watching something rather than standing in the characters shoes. No idea if this changes during the game, but I have a strong feeling it doesn't.

MO is the only one so far that didn't do the dark side of Oddworld well enough outside of the opening and bad ending cutscenes. And that bad ending cutscene was actually too over the top if you ask me, even if I love it.

AO, being the start of the story, and a very small part of it, didn't require much development. Hell, I'd argue there was in fact an insane amount of development. The world felt believable, Abe had just enough personality that you had an understanding what he was going through, and it was made clear just how dark this world was. It lightened it up pretty quickly upon entering the actual game and discovering you could glitch fart a slig off a ledge to it's death. But, it still kept it's overall dark tone and presented it beautifully.

Then you had a bit of slap stick here and there and more fart jokes and none of them were particularly cringe worthy. AE came along and turned up the comedic factors a bit and developed the characters and worlds more. I will always find the fact that you could possess your own fart and make it explode fucking comedic genius. You took the 'meh' toilet joke and turned it into a riot.

I think it's best to just drop this conversation now and agree to disagree, because we've both already stated our points, and I'd rather not clutter another several pages of this thread with this discussion. I'd much prefer to wait until I've actually played it before discussing it more, actually.


In regards to 3D vs 2D Oddworld, it depends on the characters involved. Abe works well in a 2D space, Munch works well in a 3D space. I have a hard time seeing MO in 2D and think that would limit it a little too much. I think Oddworld would benefit from sticking to 3D from here on out as far as the quintology's concerned.

I'd like to see something from OWI, considering how well they handle visuals, along the same veins of Rayman Origins in that everything is obviously hand drawn/painted. Especially with how Rupture Farms was presented this time around. It would definitely be some eye candy.

[El Dango AGAIN]

the tone of Oddworld has been pretty firmly established: satirical and characters within a bleak world. Comedy and darkness.

Dark comedy, to be more precise. People too often forget that comedy and darkness aren't opposites, and that they usually mix really well. The comedy is what makes a satire like Oddworld work, and without it, the series might risk becoming preachy and pretentious in its message.

This is basically a long way of saying "I agree with you".

[Manco]

Dark comedy is not slapstick or cartoonish characterization, though.

[Holy Sock]

So you're saying because AE had a lighter tone and focused more on the characters, and that it came after AO, that going back to AO's story telling for the remake of AO would be stepping backwards?

It's a continuation of a story. By telling AO like AE was told, there's little to no visual progression and for people who's introduction to the series is NNT, it's not going to have that flow that we got playing AO to AE.

It's a tragedy. Tragedy and comedy go hand in hand. Of course there's going to be humour, but there was a good balance of humour vs crisis in AO and AE. AE allowed more humour and the way the story was told didn't let that humour hinder it any. NNT however, following the story of AO, tells it in a different way that honestly feels like you're watching something rather than standing in the characters shoes. No idea if this changes during the game, but I have a strong feeling it doesn't.

MO is the only one so far that didn't do the dark side of Oddworld well enough outside of the opening and bad ending cutscenes. And that bad ending cutscene was actually too over the top if you ask me, even if I love it.

AO, being the start of the story, and a very small part of it, didn't require much development. Hell, I'd argue there was in fact an insane amount of development. The world felt believable, Abe had just enough personality that you had an understanding what he was going through, and it was made clear just how dark this world was. It lightened it up pretty quickly upon entering the actual game and discovering you could glitch fart a slig off a ledge to it's death. But, it still kept it's overall dark tone and presented it beautifully.

Then you had a bit of slap stick here and there and more fart jokes and none of them were particularly cringe worthy. AE came along and turned up the comedic factors a bit and developed the characters and worlds more. I will always find the fact that you could possess your own fart and make it explode fucking comedic genius. You took the 'meh' toilet joke and turned it into a riot.

I think it's best to just drop this conversation now and agree to disagree, because we've both already stated our points, and I'd rather not clutter another several pages of this thread with this discussion. I'd much prefer to wait until I've actually played it before discussing it more, actually.


In regards to 3D vs 2D Oddworld, it depends on the characters involved. Abe works well in a 2D space, Munch works well in a 3D space. I have a hard time seeing MO in 2D and think that would limit it a little too much. I think Oddworld would benefit from sticking to 3D from here on out as far as the quintology's concerned.

I'd like to see something from OWI, considering how well they handle visuals, along the same veins of Rayman Origins in that everything is obviously hand drawn/painted. Especially with how Rupture Farms was presented this time around. It would definitely be some eye candy.

I'm more just saying it's a sense of consistency. since they seemd to have locked down a tone in AE (which isn't necessarily lighter - since AE's plot is pretty dark) which is probably more the fact that the characters (Mudokons, Sligs, Abe) have more humourous elements to them. So it makes sense to add these to a remake of AO since there's a consistency in the characters and less of a noticeable change between NnT and future installments of the Quintology. But besides from a couple of moments in the cutscenes from I've seen the majority of this takes place within gameplay and the dialogue heard by Mudokons and Sligs. And, I mean, they even took the most cartoonish cutscene from AO and made it relatively a lot darker - so they haven't abandoned that side of the storytelling as well.

But yeah that'll be my final word too I guess. unless Manco replies with a harshly worded comment....

[El Dango AGAIN]

Dark comedy is not slapstick or cartoonish characterization, though.

Not by default, no. A group of creatures wanting to make money from turning another group of creatures into lollypops, however, is, and it's amplified by the way they laugh about it. It's a ridiculous scenario, yet it's also a reflection of things going on in reality.

[Manco]

AO was a dark and mysterious game with a couple of gags and quite a simple story. AE was a more developed world with a few more developed jokes, but still retained a dark atmosphere while lessening some of the mythical and mysterious overtones. MO was much more heavily focused on slapstick and humor, with some nods to darker themes. SW was a fairly serious story with more of a spaghetti western grit than mystery or myth, and while it had a couple of gags here and there it didn’t linger on them or drop them into important cutscenes.

I don’t think that AE was a particularly comedic game, and neither was SW. I think placing more emphasis on humor in NnT brings it closer to MO than any other game in the series, so I don’t understand the argument that introducing more humor brings it in line with the rest of the series.


e:

Not by default, no. A group of creatures wanting to make money from turning another group of creatures into lollypops, however, is, and it's amplified by the way they laugh about it. It's a ridiculous scenario, yet it's also a reflection of things going on in reality.

I wouldn’t really say that compares. Sure, there’s a humorous element because chopping up your employees for the sake of profit comes across as an obviously villainous and ridiculous thing to do, but it’s presented in a different light to, say, Abe’s cartoonishly exaggerated response to the revelation and his Looney Tunes-esque exit from the scene.

[Holy Sock]

Really? Essentially every cutscene in AE was full of jokes or humour. It was dark and grim as well but I don't see how NnT is much more humourous than AE to the point of going past MO's more cartoonish feel. Only the ingame characters are more humourous and to me that's just the characters in game lining up to the characters you see in the cutscenes.

[El Dango AGAIN]

AE had you control Abe's farts as a core mechanic, and SW is a game in which you shoot out tiny animals and bugs from a crossbow. Those games were plenty silly, but they still managed to have a serious story going on, and did a great job of balancing the two.

MO, on the other hand, wasn't very dark. It still had a darker tone than most 3D platformers, but for Oddworld's standards, it felt very sugar coated, and this naturally affected the comedy (except the bad ending, which is awesome).

I'm still not entirely sure how NnT is that much more comedic than Oddysee or Exoddus, just because it has more expressive characters and a couple of silly one liners from the Mudokons.

[Manco]

Really? Essentially every cutscene in AE was full of jokes or humour. It was dark and grim as well but I don't see how NnT is much more humourous than AE to the point of going past MO's more cartoonish feel. Only the ingame characters are more humourous and to me that's just the characters in game lining up to the characters you see in the cutscenes.

A lot of AE’s humor is quite deadpan in its delivery, which helps with its integration into the larger world presented in the game. Take the MOM interviews with Phlegm, Dripik and Aslik – all three are portrayed as incompetent in some way, but it’s entirely through what they’re saying. The player sees this incompetence but nobody calls them on it in the game and the joke isn’t lingered on. Wordplay like this doesn’t come across as aggressively cartoonish and unrealistic as visual slapstick like a character tripping and falling while accompanied by goofy sound effects.

As to “characters in game lining up to the characters you see in the cutscenes”, this just further takes away from the atmosphere as it spreads humor out through the entire game, making it more common and therefore allowing the player to grow accustomed to it. It doesn’t allow a contrast to develop between the dark and the comedic, as you are constantly being presented with both.