Beliefs: Gods, a little bit of Evolution, and Spirits -

Danny · #61 07-20-2002, 05:14 PM

:

Originally posted by Khanzumer
That's okay. I just am used to getting a hard time for some of my beliefs.

WIth most beliefs, I am not too bothered. For example, the fact that you don't believe in Evolution doesn't bother me, because it does nobody any harm. However, homophobia and other prejudices do concern me, because they can cause harm to others. I'm not saying that you might go out and beat a gay to death because you think that homosexuality is not a good lifestyle, but just by believeing such a thing, you are helping to maintain a society where such things can happen, if you see what I mean. I only say this so that you understand why I will be on your case about this.

I really would like to know why you believe what you do. If you are afraid of offending somebody or attracting flames, then you could PM me (I won't be offended or angry), if you don't mind. I find it fascinating learning why people believe what they do, especially beliefs like homophobia and racism and things.

(BTW I mean "homophobia" in the colloquial sense meaning "dislike of homosexuality", not the technical sense, "fear of homosexuality", before you point that out.

Actually, come to think of it, literally, homophobia means "fear of similarity", so I needn't have said anything. Bummer.)

Khanzumer · #62 07-20-2002, 07:47 PM

It is really hard to explain why I believe in my religion so much. My devotion to it must seem weird to the people here who aren't seriously religious. I guess for you to understand the reasons why I do things you would have to experience a similar faith.

When it boils right down to it, the only reason I believe anything is because of my religion. Without Christianity I would be able to do anything I wanted, even if it would harm myself and others. I would have nothing to look forward to when I die. So I've found a religion which makes sense. I agree with most of the morals and the ones I don't agree with I follow anyways because of my faith that it is for the better.

Nothing I can say will make it easier for you to understand my beliefs, especially the ones that seem bad to you. Just like I can't understand why anybody would believe certain things. It is just the way are consciences have been developed to think.

Hopefully that makes a little bit of sense.

Dequibenzo · #63 07-20-2002, 08:02 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Surfacing
[B]If you have a table in your house, the chance is someone made it directly or indirectly for you. It did not made itself, or it was not made by a chance. Same rule applies for your car, your house, your clothes, your medicine, and everything else in your home or at your work. The common sense says that there is a worker behind every work, there is a maker for everything made. Nothing is made by itself or by a chance.[B]

Ah, but you're forgetting- we don't really create those things. When you "make" a table, you are not starting with nothing and ending with something, you are simply manipulating something into something else. When you think about it, we don't really create anything, just change it. You can't truely create anything and you can't truely destroy anything, just combine, dispurse, organize, randomize, transform or otherwise manipulate it. A person cannot really create anything, because you have to have the components to start with. We see the act of manipulating them as "creating" because we have a bad habit of not seeing it as a conglomeration of it's parts, but as a whole seperate thing. The idea that a man "makes" a table is a fallacy of logic caused by our limited perspective of existance.

And, even if everything in the universed DOES have to have a creator, it's a completely different argument. You're arguing that God exists and that he created everything- fine, let's assume he does, and that he did. The conflict at hand is HOW life was created, through evolution, the creation theory expressed in orthodox Christian scripture, or something else alltogether. WHO did it is completely irrelivant, the question is HOW, and since scripture is insanely vague on this subject (in fact, COMPLETELY vague. It gives us NO INFORMATION ON THIS SUBJECT WHATSOEVER, other than how long it took, and that's iffy!!!), that leaves evolution and something else, and evolution is our best estimate right now based on the evidence we have . Whether or not god exists is a completely seperate argument, because he could very well exist and have used Darwinian evolution as his tool to create life. This is why I believe in evolution- because the alternatives have little or no support , and can actually go with evolution if you think about it! Please, think about it!!!!

Danny · #64 07-20-2002, 08:09 PM

:

Originally posted by Khanzumer
Without Christianity I would be able to do anything I wanted, even if it would harm myself and others.

Oh, come on now. Morality and Christianity are not symonymous. I have morals, and I'm an atheist. All religions and most non-religious people have morals, not just Christians.

:

I would have nothing to look forward to when I die.

Again, see above. It's not just Christians who believe in life after death. I myself do not actually believe anything one way or another, as there is not way to prove or disprove the existence of life after death...

:

So I've found a religion which makes sense. I agree with most of the morals and the ones I don't agree with I follow anyways because of my faith that it is for the better.

This is the bit I can't understand. Why do you follow morals that you don't believe? That is effectively doing something that you know to be morally wrong...

But anyway, I didn't actually ask about your beliefs, I asked why you think that "Homosexuality isn't a good lifestyle".

Khanzumer · #65 07-20-2002, 09:02 PM

I knew that what I wrote was confusing. Thanks for pointing out exactly what. The last part about following morals that I know are wrong... well the truth is I don't know why I wrote that. I don't disagree with any of the morals taught in the Bible. I need some sleep.

Sydney · #66 07-21-2002, 02:03 AM

:

Originally posted by Dequibenzo
Ah, but you're forgetting- we don't really create those things. When you "make" a table, you are not starting with nothing and ending with something, you are simply manipulating something into something else.

Neither did God, he created us out of dust!

:

Originally posted by KhanzumerWithout Christianity I would be able to do anything I wanted, even if it would harm myself and others. I would have nothing to look forward to when I die.

This reminds me of a scripture class I had in High School, where the bloke got up and explained how without God, the actions in the lives of Mother Theresa and Hitler are no different. When we broke up into seperate groups, we were lucky enough to have this man as our leader. I asked him why being rewarded with an afterlife should be the motivation of good deeds. I said it seemed selfish to me: Why can't we be good for goodness sake, rather than for promise of reward?

I think you need to ask yourself why you're a Christian. Is it because you love Christ? Or are you motivated by personal gain, as you said yourself: "I would have nothing to look forward to when I die."

Surfacing · #67 07-21-2002, 02:12 AM

:

Originally posted by Danny
This is an incredibly silly argument. Not everything has a maker. Go outside and touch a tree. Does that have a maker? No. Pick up a stone. Does that have a maker? No. Neither does the Universe.

Of course, you could say that these things do have a maker, that God was their maker, but in doing so you are admitting that your entire argument for proving God's existence depends on the assumption that he exists anyway.

Your argument: Everything has a maker. Tables are made by Carpenters, Computers are made by computer-makery people, plants and animals are made by God. By this logic, the Universe must have a maker as well. Let us call this maker God.

My return: Not everything has a maker. Tables and computers do, but plants and animals don't. Therefore the Universe does not have to either.

See? Your argument is dependent on the assumption that you are correct. If we remove that assumption and examine your argument analytically, it falls apart...

Well Dan let me ask you this:
Some say it is impossible to prove God's existence. But if that is true, how do they know this? Are there any proofs that prove it is impossible to prove God's existence.

Khanzumer · #68 07-21-2002, 02:42 AM

Sydney you have a good point. But think. Why would I be a Christian for selfish reasons, all the non-religious people I know act like they have a great time doing things I think are wrong. If I was in it for myself I wouldn't be religious. It would be all about me.

But that dosn't mean that the my drive for being a Christain isn't because I look forward to Heaven. It is the main part. The other is that I want to live a good life and this seems like the best way I can do it and be satisfied with myself. Most people I know like me, or at least none of them hate me (i think). I attribute this to the way I was brought up. I'm a "pew baby," which means I've gone to Church since birth.

Sydney · #69 07-21-2002, 02:58 AM

:

Originally posted by Khanzumer
Sydney you have a good point. But think. Why would I be a Christian for selfish reasons, all the non-religious people I know act like they have a great time doing things I think are wrong. If I was in it for myself I wouldn't be religious. It would be all about me.

Long-term, you know that the non-religious people you know will be burning in hell forever, while you're basking in the warm glow of eternal life. With this knowledge, your acting in the belief that you will be the one living the good life, while others will not be. So you're denying yourself of things you think are fun-but-wrong only during this life, in hopes of an afterlife. It's like some people live for the moment, spending their weekly earnings on simple pleasures, while other people deny themselves simple pleasures because they believe saving their money will bring themselves more pleasure long-term.

:

Originally posted by Khanzumer
But that dosn't mean that the my drive for being a Christain isn't because I look forward to Heaven. It is the main part. The other is that I want to live a good life and this seems like the best way I can do it and be satisfied with myself. Most people I know like me, or at least none of them hate me (i think). I attribute this to the way I was brought up. I'm a "pew baby," which means I've gone to Church since birth.

If Christianity is the only thing that makes your deeds good, in turn making you a likable person who is compassionate to others, then good for you. But don't make the mistake of thinking that non-religious people are bankrupt of morals. I know many non-religious people who possess the kindest hearts I've known. To me, their hearts are pure, and don't need a promise of afterlife to maintain genuinity.

By the way, I've reset the password of your old account. The new password has been sent to your email address.

Danny · #70 07-21-2002, 03:14 PM

:

Originally posted by Surfacing
Well Dan let me ask you this:
Some say it is impossible to prove God's existence. But if that is true, how do they know this? Are there any proofs that prove it is impossible to prove God's existence.

Well Leon, let me tell you this:
Nobody likes a smartarse. When somebody proves it one way or another, give me a call. Until then, the burden of proof is on the Believer.

Khanzumer (what's your name, by the way?), if you believe that Christianity helps you to lead a good life, then carry on. But don't be fooled into thinking it is the only way...

Jacob · #71 07-21-2002, 04:14 PM

Basically it boils down to what a person believes. Some people believe in stupid stuff such as "Oddworld being real" or "Abe possessing them during their lifetime" so on and so forth. Its upto them. They dont have evidence or anything substantial to prove this, they merely believe it. I believe in life after death mainly due to the scientific research that has gone into it. Such as recording "Ghosts". Its very interesting and has been done. They take a recorder and ask a "Haunted" house questions, pausing a brief time inbetween. Then they analyse the tape and they can hear voices. Also, if they record the surrounding on a video camera then they can see small glowing orbs floating around. Also, its a very nice thought. Being a ghost and protecting people...

There is one thing that Christians and Catholics seem to mis-understand. And that is Jesus or God never wrote the bible. A number of his diciples did. John (I think) was the one who wrote about homosexuality. If y'all kind did your research and did not think that questioning a belief was sinful then you would realise that Jesus actually said "Man should do what man desires." see, Jesus was a parté animal.

Sl'askia · #72 07-21-2002, 04:49 PM

Good post Chris...I agree.

Another thing Christians and Catholics seem to 'forget' is that the bible has gone through many translations and 'edits' over the centeries. So many that it is very possible that the text has lost its true meaning. You also have to take into account the 'policial' views during the centeries that influenced how the bible was translated. It, I believe, is why there are so many versions of the bible floating around.
Don't get me wrong...the bible was a good reference for what was right and wrong during the time it was written....as that was all early christians had to go by. But for the most part I see the bible as nothing but a fancy story book. But I know behind every myth/legend/story there is a little bit of truth. What is the truth that the bible is based on? Who knows for sure...only time will tell.

Danny · #73 07-21-2002, 05:42 PM

:

Originally posted by Jacob
I believe in life after death mainly due to the scientific research that has gone into it. Such as recording "Ghosts".

Does anyone remember that mock-documentary they did on BBC a few years back (in the early 90s, I think), where they pretended to be investigating a haunted house? They made it like a real documentary, and broadcast it as that, but it was full of little nice touches, like a figure standing by a curtain that wasn't there when the camera swung back. It sounds cheesy, but it was really well done, and was actually very believable.

Or at least, it was until the end, where Parkinson got possessed and starting saying nursery rhymes in a deep voice...

Jacob · #74 07-21-2002, 05:56 PM

It wasn't a mock thing...i dont think. Its a known thing now, recording stuff like that.

Danny · #75 07-21-2002, 06:08 PM

I wasn't talking about these experiments in general, I was talking about one particular programme, which was a mock documentary, and was very good. It was even quite scary in places...

Khanzumer · #76 07-21-2002, 07:12 PM

Thanks Sydney. I'll check for the new password.

As for the other stuff you said... Don't get me wrong, I think that everyone has some sort of morals. I don't think that only Christians do good things. I just attribute MY morals to my parents bringing me up in the Church.

Jacob · #77 07-21-2002, 10:13 PM

I cant stand people with too many morals. They are so boring. Its like "Yeh, we dont want to talk about football anymore!!"

Jacob · #78 07-22-2002, 01:09 AM

Ok then. How do you know that they do exist? Have you met one? Can you "Sense" them with your Dracconic abilities? What!?