Okay, let's be truthful. Who's gonna pirate it?

[Varrok]

I'm only asking you to say why it's bad. Because I say that it's not a rule.

[MeechMunchie]

Ironically, Varrok isn't voicing any opinions or arguments in support of piracy, he's just complaining about how the opposing views aren't good enough.

If you like something enough to read/watch/play it, you should be prepared to pay for it. Otherwise, that stuff doesn't get made. Yeah, I do believe buying a game anulls your earlier piracy; there's no difference in profit on the devs' end, just one player:one purchase. But that point could only consistently defend piracy in a world where everyone bought the things they pirated. And if that were the case, people wouldn't pirate things in the first place.

I've stated my position plenty of times, and in 99% of cases it's simple:

Everyone does shitty things out of convenience. You dodge a friend you don't feel like talking to. You eat the flesh of murdered animals. You pirate something you could easily afford. No-one will judge you for doing these things, as long as you're honest with yourself, and others, about what you're doing.

Varrok, you're stealing stuff because you don't like paying for it. Nobody cares about that. Just don't try and spin petty theft as a morally justified act, because it's not, and it never will be.

With digital priacy, isn't it more like this -
?- Product
Money -X

The difference between pirating a digital album and stealing a physical copy is that, not including publisher/hosting/whatever costs (which are real), you're not taking money away from anyone. There's not a finite supply of what you're taking. You haven't limited the pool.

That's entirely moot. Owning a copy of the game - taking receipt of that product, digital or not - is theft if you didn't pay the amount pre-agreed.

"Diminishing stock" was never a concern in theft, even when digital distribution didn't exist; it's just a fake issue pirates throw out to try and justify their actions. You can have as many copies as you want, as long as you pay for them.

[Varrok]

Ironically, Varrok isn't voicing any opinions or arguments in support of piracy, he's just complaining about how the opposing views aren't good enough.

I did before, you should read my earlier posts.

"Diminishing stock" was never a concern in theft, even when digital distribution didn't exist; it's just a fake issue pirates throw out to try and justify their actions. You can have as many copies as you want, as long as you pay for them.

It's not a fake issue. That's a real deal considering the nature of digital files, and calling it a "fake issue" sounds pretty ignorant, and hits not only in thieves, and also people who buy a file and make some copies for yourself (Regarding polish law, you can't have more than one backup of game/music you bought, it's forbidden. At least they're not executing this law at all.)

[MeechMunchie]

Digital stocks are not diminished if you pirate a game.
Digital stocks are not diminished if you buy a game.
Digital stocks have no bearing on this discussion.

[Shade667]

Im a fan of this discussion.
+1

[Varrok]

By the way, I was not the one who mentioned any kind of stocks to begin with.

[Slog Bait]

Regarding Phylum's bookstore example

I have no idea how bookstores around the world work but down here a lot of them have areas specifically to sit down an read in the store itself and they encourage reading before buying. My mom has spent entire days in bookstores just reading and has even completed novels in bookstores, and she usually ends up purchasing a few she enjoyed on the way out.

Comic book stores are generally the same and most stores that sell music will have areas you can listen to the albums they have in stock on

Therefore this example is lost on me

[Manco]

Which is never a good thing for gamers.

holy shit this is the most gamefaqs.txt thing ever

[Vlam]

Piracy ? It's the don't ask, don't tell policy.

[Varrok]

But you've just asked!

[Mr. Bungle]

I'm not gonna pirate this because I suck

[Mac Sirloin]

Stealing=/=Pirating

Not paying for something and acquiring it through means that don't benefit those that created it=Stealing.

The 'IT'S NOT STEALING IT'S MAKING A COPY' argument is fucking stupid.

I'll buy it. Eventually.

[Mr. Bungle]

I keep hoping for a PS3 release but maybe I just need to get with the times.

[Varrok]

So if somebody bought a game, and the disc got damaged, so he downloaded it illegally, he stole?

[Mr. Bungle]

I think that's technically still just stealing, yeah. Bit of a grey area but I'm sure it's still stealing in the eyes of the law.

[Varrok]

In the eyes of law, yes. Law is imperfect. I meant morally. I hate that some of you generalize piracy to just stealing. Of course what Mac said is right (the first part), but pirating something does not necessarily mean somebody didn't pay for it or doesn't intend to pay for it. I remember an article of two saying that pirates tend to buy more music than people who never pirate. I don't know the credibility of that study, but there are definitely people who are morally correct and willing to support the artists/creators they like, and it's hurtful and unjust to put them in the same bag with douches who simply choose not to pay for something they can pay for.

What I mean is I couldn't honestly call a person in the previous-post-example a thief.

[Phylum]

But why would you pirate something you will only buy anyway? You can never know 100% that you will want to buy something you pirate, hence my Cube World story.

Our world is based on a system of monetary transactions. People do things, and they get money for it. That money comes from people playing for a product or service. If you take something without paying for it then that subverts the system, and is bad. I don't think we should have any problems agreeing on that. It doesn't matter how much you say that you couldsee above buy the game later, taking something that is not yours is bad.

If you buy a game and it's broken, then you can ask for a refund. Some stores even offer returns/switches/trade-ins within a certain time. Maybe this isn't possible where you live, or maybe you just don't have faith in those systems and want to play the games yourself before you commit to buying them. That's logical. That's probably even reasonable. On my scale of "how bad is this" out of ten it probably only reaches 0.01, if that.

It's also worth mentioning that, no matter how much you say it encourages people to buy the game, somebody is putting someone else's work up to the world in a way the creator(s) never intended. This is much much worse than downloading the game will ever be. A lot of my feelings about piracy come from this end - that people shouldn't make the work of others unofficially accessible. The decision to put your work up for free should only be the decision of the person(s) who actually made it. I don't even care about the monetary side of it, it's about whoever did the work getting to control distribution.

[Manco]

Perhaps the issue here is that everyone is arguing from a slightly different perspective of piracy. Let’s consider the following:

• Piracy is the act of acquiring a copy of a digital good without legally purchasing it. No money changes hands and the creator is not reimbursed for pirated media.
• Piracy is, in most countries, against the law.

Now here are some of the possibilities of the outcomes of an act of piracy:

• The act of pirating a piece of media neither guarantees nor precludes the possibility of the person pirating the media from later purchasing a legitimate copy of the media.
• It is entirely possible to pirate a piece of media, consume or part-consume that media, and then never purchase a legitimate copy.
• It is also entirely possible to pirate a piece of media, consume or part-consume that media, and then proceed to purchase a legitimate copy, reimbursing the creator in the process.
• It is also possible to pirate a piece of media, consume or part-consume that media, and then proceed to purchase other media created by the creator.

Finally, it is basically impossible to source accurate statistics proving that any of these possibilities are more commonly-occuring than the other.

Now people can use all kind of reasoning to justify piracy – they use it in lieu of a demo, as a try-before-you-buy; they can’t afford to buy it right now but they will when they can; they want to experience media but don’t want to support the creator/s for ethical reasons; or they’re just plain selfish or ignorant. These are all arguments we’ve seen before at some point or another. I don’t think most of them hold water – they’re excuses to try to justify having your cake and eating it too. The traditional model is that you either pay for the media or you don’t get to experience it, but some want it both ways.

I also think there are legitimate problems with the digital market that needs to be addressed. A complaint I see every now and again is that purchased games can have DRM which damages the experience, which a pirated version will have stripped out, thus making the pirated version a better experience – this would be frustrating for anyone. You can be sold a buggy or broken game and have to wade through shit to get a refund.

The fact remains that piracy is, technically speaking, illegal, and there are no guarantees that those who pirate will reimburse creators. While people who do that definitely exist the fact is that having a free source of media is awfully tempting for a lot of people. Digital media has made it hella easy for people to get free stuff, and plenty of people will take advantage.


In my eyes, piracy is technically illegal, and for the most part is not easily justifiable. There are some cases where it can be excused or understood, but for the most part I think it’s a result of laziness, greed or not wanting to part with cash unless it’s a “safe bet”. The best solution is for:

• creators and marketplace vendors to reduce the factors that can lead to piracy with affordable prices, simple purchasing/download/install process, frictionless DRM (or none at all), stringent bug-testing (and easier refunds for broken games), offering demos wherever possible, combined with honest reviews and accessible media coverage are all solutions.
• buyers to realize that for media to get made it needs to be funded, and that comes from spending their money smartly on media they want to support at marketplaces that are buyer-friendly. They can figure this out through the vast amounts of professional critics, amateur reviews, Youtube videos/Let’s Plays, social media chatter etc.

[Varrok]

I think Manco pretty much nailed the solutions, with the second set being the most important, as it's treating the source of human depravity instead of the symptoms. I differ slightly in terms of piracy justifications, as I know the situation from the other side of the coin, and there's much, much more to it than just the reasons mentioned by him. Also, I don't consider "not wanting to part with cash unless it’s a “safe bet”" a bad thing. It's nothing bad, a perfectly sane behavior.

Also, fuck DRM. And fuck EA. (There's a strong connection in my brain between those two to the point that it's hard to address one without the other)

[Phylum]

What about my point about the people who upload the games in the first place, though?

[MeechMunchie]

What's this? Manco playing the mediator? Time to wrap up and be friends again?

NOPE

By the way, I was not the one who mentioned any kind of stocks to begin with.

Don't defend a point of view and then try to make out that you were speaking on behalf of someone else. Either you care about it or you don't.

So if somebody bought a game, and the disc got damaged, so he downloaded it illegally, he stole?

Yeah. I'm not entitled to an ebook just because I dropped my paperback in the sink.

I hate that some of you generalize piracy to just stealing.

"I hate that you call this thing what it actually is rather than a more ambiguous term that I can hide behind"

The very fact that you pirate something infers that you know you might not want to pay for it. The only reason why you'd pirate something is because you don't want to pay for it. Regardless of whether you just don't want to pay for it now, or you never want to pay for it, the fact that you wouldn't put the money down upfront quite obviously betrays your intention of not paying for it if you don't feel like it.

And sure, a lot of the time you will feel like paying for it, so you will pay for it, and no harm is done. But it's not about whether you feel like paying for stuff; the problem is that you think paying for a commercial product is optional.

"I could steal all of this stuff, but I'm feeling good today, so I guess I'll pay the bare minimum instead. I'm so generous."

What mindset can you call that, other than that of a thief?
_

As Manco implied, popular opinion is a bit "too far gone" for the man in the street to start feeling like paying for the stuff he takes is actually mandatory again. To achieve any practical change, we'll just have to try and make paying for media seem like a really hip, responsible, admirable thing so that only NERDS pirate video games. People will basically pay out of peer pressure, but in principle, they should be doing it anyway.

[Nate]

oh no people are actively posting about a topic how boring

It's boring because people are saying exactly the same things as they did last time we discussed this.

[Manco]

Also, I don't consider "not wanting to part with cash unless it’s a “safe bet”" a bad thing. It's nothing bad, a perfectly sane behavior.

Yeah but it can be mediated in so many ways that aren’t illegal – like I said, there are professional reviews, video previews, full playthroughs and LPs, you can ask friends’ opinions or borrow games from people, or you can even search opinion on forums and social media. It’s not difficult to work out if you’re gonna like a game before playing it.

The idea of “I don’t know if I’ll enjoy this game so I’ll pirate a full copy of it first” completely takes away any control the creator had over their intellectual property and places far too much faith on the idea that a person will go back and pay for it out of a sense of fairness. That’s not how any transaction should work, except when the creator only asks for donations for a free game.

What about my point about the people who upload the games in the first place, though?

As a group who actively strip out DRM and anti-piracy measures and then allow people to download the game for free, I’d say they’re probably unlikely to be in the moral high ground here. Makes the moral argument in favor a bit less secure if you ask me.

It's boring because people are saying exactly the same things as they did last time we discussed this.

There are also new points being raised.

[Varrok]

Don't defend a point of view and then try to make out that you were speaking on behalf of someone else. Either you care about it or you don't.

Yeah. I'm not entitled to an ebook just because I dropped my paperback in the sink.

Why not? I've already supported the maker with my money, and he doesn't lose his money making another copy. Your no arguments are shitty arguments. Also, digital stocks really have a bearing on this discussion after all.

"I hate that you call this thing what it actually is rather than a more ambiguous term that I can hide behind"

I don't need to hide behind it, I rarely pirated any games, and I pretty much stopped doing that a long time ago, I just think some people have stupid or no arguments against it.

Also, there was a word for a person who ignores other person's arguments because of the other person's profession/membership/other. I don't remember the word, I'm pretty sure some of you mentioned it frequently at OWF. I think that word applies to MM.

The very fact that you pirate something infers that you know you might not want to pay for it. The only reason why you'd pirate something is because you don't want to pay for it. Regardless of whether you just don't want to pay for it now, or you never want to pay for it, the fact that you wouldn't put the money down upfront quite obviously betrays your intention of not paying for it if you don't feel like it.

You are blinded, do you? You completely ignored the case where somebody paid for it.

And sure, a lot of the time you will feel like paying for it, so you will pay for it, and no harm is done. But it's not about whether you feel like paying for stuff; the problem is that you think paying for a commercial product is optional.

The problem (one of them, at least) is not buying things I don't really want to, but I was manipulated by publisher's marketing/game footage (some games look cool and play tragic)/not very honest reviews etc.

"I could steal all of this stuff, but I'm feeling good today, so I guess I'll pay the bare minimum instead. I'm so generous."

That's low, and you should already know that I don't see that in such categories.

What mindset can you call that, other than that of a thief?

You showed some statements without proving some of them right. What mindset can you call that, other than a shitty, prejudiced debater?

As a group who actively strip out DRM and anti-piracy measures and then allow people to download the game for free, I’d say they’re probably unlikely to be in the moral high ground here. Makes the moral argument in favor a bit less secure if you ask me.

Some of the people who does that feel like they're in the moral high ground, and there are many people who support it because of the DRM policy. DRM was the reason Spore was so pirated on PC, many people who bought it decided to pirate it instead and play without the DRM. There were many people who decided not to buy the game to protest and not to give milions of dollars to big companies so they waste it for something like that. Even if they liked the game.

I'm pretty much done with the debate.

[Vlam]

You guys are unbelievable : it's hair-splitting. Piracy is still illegal, even if you have all the good reasons of the world.

[STM]

Illegality has nothing to do with morality, being gay is illegal is plenty of countries, it's not immoral though is it?

to be honest I think morals are bull shit and depends entirely on the situation, sometimes pirating is okay, sometimes it's not.

[Manco]

Some of the people who does that feel like they're in the moral high ground, and there are many people who support it because of the DRM policy. DRM was the reason Spore was so pirated on PC, many people who bought it decided to pirate it instead and play without the DRM. There were many people who decided not to buy the game to protest and not to give milions of dollars to big companies so they waste it for something like that. Even if they liked the game.

Except that the moral high ground in this instance would have been the people who neither bought the game nor pirated it. If you disagree with the decisions a business makes then it is certainly your prerogative to not support them financially; however you cannot then lay claim to their product while knowingly refusing to pay for it.

As for the people who bought it and then pirated it? I personally would not take issue with that, but I also recognize that there are other avenues they could have tried.

You guys are unbelievable : it's hair-splitting. Piracy is still illegal, even if you have all the good reasons of the world.

Illegal and immoral are distinct and separate concepts.

[Varrok]

Except that the moral high ground in this instance would have been the people who neither bought the game nor pirated it. If you disagree with the decisions a business makes then it is certainly your prerogative to not support them financially; however you cannot then lay claim to their product while knowingly refusing to pay for it.

Wouldn't the big companies interpret that as losing interest in the franchise? Keep in mind, they are pretty dumb sometimes, hence the DRM in the first place.

Edit: Dammit, now I look a liar. I said I was done with this topic. I am done now though. Unless there is something I feel the need to respond to.

[SpAM_CAN]

Personally, I'm not gonna torrent it - or at least I don't plan to. If I do, I won't feel too awful, since I bought the game at launch on PS4 when I don't own the system. My plan is just to wait for the PC port to either go on sale or for the Vita version to be finished.

[Job McYossie]

You guys are unbelievable : it's hair-splitting.

I feel similar about your use of the colon.