Faith

[OANST]

I don't care. Seriously. I don't give half a diarrhea shit if you're an atheist. All I did was point out that you claimed your belief is the only logical one when that obviously isn't true.

[used:)]

I say we start posting in the other faith thread, although this is too hilarious to close.

[SeaRex]

OANST and Stat. Behave please.

And whats deist, actualy?

All hail the Dread Lord Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

I came across the unofficial tenets of Deism a while ago when I was looking up some info on the whole idea of God as "The Clockmaker." Deism fit my preexisting spiritual beliefs almost perfectly, so I adopted the philosophy as my own.

[Statikk HDM]

Hmm, Jefferson was a Deist, you're in good company.

[Nate]

do you ever think religion is just another way to divide people? no offense to people who are religious

I think people are already divided and have an instinct for violence and wars. Religion is merely an excuse.

I don't think it, I know it. Israel and Palestina anyone? Thats a prime example.

That's a remarkably naive statement. The Israel/Palestine issue is over territory, not religion. Israel has good relations with several Muslim countries (Jordan, Turkey, Egypt to some extent and several North-African nations). Also, it should be noted that Jews and Muslims were very close up until nationalistic Zionism grew as a movement in the second half of the 19th century. Jews were generally better treated in Muslim countries than in Christian ones, the Golden Age of Spain being the best example.

[Adder]

Its not for me to prove God doesn't exist, its on believers to prove it to ME. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There's evidence of a large volcanic eruption several millenia ago that could have caused all the symptomes of the Great Plagues (with the exeption of the final plague). It happened around the right time and around the right place.

Again, if you study science you quickly learn a great deal of it cannot be proven, including Einstein's theory of relativity (which is flawed, and only works in certain systems. It's about as acurate as using 3.1415 as the absolute value of pi). They all seem to work fine, and a lot of the hypotheses aren't easy to argue away, but the fact is they're not proven. And if you're only going to accept things that are provable... you really won't be able to accept much.

i mean religion is not inheritantly evil but holy wars? isn't that kind of like an oxymoron

Yes, it is.
This is where you could argue the people who undertake violent Jihad {because if you read up on it, they're not supposed to be violent} and The Crusades were not truely following their religion. They were just using it as an excuse.
There's nothing in Christianity {that I've ever seen in the Bible} about killing everyone who's not Christian. It is corruption which seems to cause the violence and you can only blame humans for that.

[Havoc]

Yea it's over territory, but as far as I understand the core of that story it's because Israel believes that the Palenstina land has been promised to them by the bible.

[Nate]

Certain people are unwilling to hand back the west bank because it is part of ancestral Israel, yes. But the majority of Israelis would prefer to give back the west bank as long as they could be guaranteed safety in return.

[Statikk HDM]

I don't see this amazing tie to the land that Israelis have. "God" told them to take the "promised land" so they committed genocide to get a hold of it. They lost control of it and haven't had it for a century. Now they want it back because of the Holocaust and b.s. claims to divine promises and holiness? If you were Palestinian would you roll over for this crap? Hell no. Sorry Zionists, karma is a bitch.

[Jacob]

Ignorance is bliss, but allow me to step out of my ignoramus device and ask a question - the people in Israel, what are they? Jews?

[used:)]

I guess. Weren't Israelites in the Bible Jewish or soemthing?

[Patrick Vykkers]

Sorry to butt in, but few people know that the "Palestinians" are actually Jordanians from the 19th century. There has never been a "Palestine" run by "Palestinians". The name was invented by the Romans as an insult to the Jews living there (Palestine is derived from Philistine, an adversary of the Israelites in the Torah/Bible). It was later recycled by Islamic fundies as a way to justify their anti semitism

[Nate]

Basically true, except that there weren't Jordanians back then either. Basically, the concept of Jordan/Palestine/Saudi Arabia/Iran/Iraq/Syria/Lebanon/etc is an artificial construct established by the British and French after they conquered what was then the Ottoman Empire in WWI.

I don't see this amazing tie to the land that Israelis have. "God" told them to take the "promised land" so they committed genocide to get a hold of it. They lost control of it and haven't had it for a century. Now they want it back because of the Holocaust and b.s. claims to divine promises and holiness? If you were Palestinian would you roll over for this crap? Hell no. Sorry Zionists, karma is a bitch.

Erm. Genocide is a strong word to use here; conquering of land was quite common at the time (approx 1300BC). There have been Jews in the region constantly since then - the population has been significant since people started moving there from Europe in the 1860's.

Even before the holocaust Jews have been trying to establish a self-governing nation in Israel. There were discussions with the Ottomans to take control of what was then a backwater of the empire. When the British conquered the region, they made promises to both the local Jews and Arabs that they could have the land. Eventually the British washed their hands of it and let the UN decide. They established the Partition Plan where two countries would be established; a Jewish one and an Arab one. The Arab countries (Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq) didn't approve and they invaded Israel. Miraculously, Israel managed to defend itself and established itself as a democracy. The regions that were set aside for the Palestinian state was taken by Jordan and Egypt.

The Palestinian 'problem' is one that was created by Jordan and Egypt, not Israel.

[Bullet Magnet]

Firstly I'd like to apologise for any stupid or poorly researched things I may blurt out, and aslo state that anything I do say in this thread is in no way definitive and that there are always exceptions or minorities. You read my posts at your own risk. Bullet Magnet and his affiliates accept no responsibility for any damages, physical, mental or spiritual, that occur from reading my posts. Anything you do say can and will be given as evidence. Disconnect from the mains before removing cover. Warranty applicable for 90 days after original purchase, copyrighted 2006. I the the event of an overdose seek medical attention immediately. No refunds.

Okay.

Voodoo is not African. I believe it originates from Haiti.

[used:)]

It originated in Haiti, but evolved from a set of smaller tribal religions in west Africa.

[Nate]

Has anyone read the book Conversations With God? It's currently my brother's bible. My mum is reading it and throwing out random quotes to me but it just sounds like second-rate Deist claptrap to me*. It's clearly written for people from a Christian background (references to Jesus and the 10 commandments) and yet it seems to be saying that God and religion is unimportant; God doesn't care what you do, just that you think that you're doing the right thing. It actually says that Hitler is in heaven!

Anyway, I just wanted to know if anyone else had read it and what their impressions were.



* I'm not saying that Deism is second-rate claptrap. Just that the book is.

[used:)]

I think the whiole idea of Hell is stupid. I don't see the logic of sending someone to eternity in a pit of fire if everything is supposed to be at peace in heaven. I mean, if everyone goes to heaven, then why would anyone hold any grudges when they get there? If someone truly belives what they did in life was good, and they spent their life working on it, then they deserve a reward. What they may have done may not have been considered good by others, but I can see the logic in that book you're talking about, Nate.

[SeaRex]

Has anyone read the book Conversations With God? It's currently my brother's bible. My mum is reading it and throwing out random quotes to me but it just sounds like second-rate Deist claptrap to me*. It's clearly written for people from a Christian background (references to Jesus and the 10 commandments) and yet it seems to be saying that God and religion is unimportant; God doesn't care what you do, just that you think that you're doing the right thing. It actually says that Hitler is in heaven!

Anyway, I just wanted to know if anyone else had read it and what their impressions were.



* I'm not saying that Deism is second-rate claptrap. Just that the book is.

Sounds like it vaguely touches a few deist beliefs, but from what you've said, it does sound like a pretty crap book.

However, I also think that organized religion isn't important at all. It's up to anyone who believes in a God, not just Christians, to seek out that god on their own terms. People need to focus more on finding their own spirituality, rather than listening to a man on a soapbox every Sunday morning. I understand that, on paper, church is a positive idea, but for many people, a relationship with God begins and ends with a one-hour sermon, a few songs, and some stale crackers and wine that they don't even care about. Through organized religion, God can become a chore.

Not badmouthing any church-goers, though. I know for a fact that there are those that can get a spirituality fulfilling experience from religious congregations. It would be wrong of me to say that no one can get something positive from organized religion.

As for the whole "God doesn't care thing," what right does the author have to make such conjectures over his Creator? You can't tell God what he does or doesn't do. The sheer arrogance of that... and Hitler in heaven? Wow, there's just no explaining that little tidbit.

[Lord Vulcher]

[SeaRex]

Stop posting that, LV.

[Lord Vulcher]

Stop posting that, LV.

Sorry, I just think they're funny.

[OANST]

I think the back of my hand is funny. Would you like to see it?

[Jacob]

"God doesn't care what you do, just that you think that you're doing the right thing"

I've always pondered over this. I remember Oddguy and some other forumers arguing one time about other Religions and he mentioned how they'd still go to Heaven, 'cos their intentions were true and God would judge them on their Hearts, not their actions.

Which begs the question, what about murderers and the like who believe what they're doing is the right thing? And rapists who believe God is talking to them and telling them to rape?

Meh.

Also, i'm sure there's a concept of a "Cold Hell" or something, where Hell only has Lucifer and his minions in, but all people are in Heaven.

[used:)]

and Hitler in heaven? Wow, there's just no explaining that little tidbit.

I still partly agree with that. To many, earth is just a crazy place where we're in and out. It's a sliver of time in the soul's life. I believe if God is truly compassionate, he would welcome every soul in heaven if they did what they thought was good. Besides, what would be the point of a hell if everything is supposed to be at balance and light in heaven? Sending someone to an eternity of fire doesn't sound like compassionate to me.

[SeaRex]

I see your point.

Some people believe that Hell is only temporary, a level of temporary suffering to fit the culprit's crimes, so to speak. Going by that logic, Hitler may very well be in Heaven. Not that I subscribe to that belief, of course.

In short, no one really knows the exact specifics of the afterlife, or the exact methods of judgment used to place a soul in its final resting place, unless one places complete, utter faith in a scripture. I personally tend to take a skeptical approach to scripture, seeing as how revisions, retranslations, and man's bias can warp meanings. A lot of the stories in the Bible don't need to be taken word for word; they simply provide interesting situations and metaphors that can help a person live their life. A guidebook instead of a blueprint, as it were.

Honestly though, I don't think about the afterlife that much. I tend to focus on living my mortal life as best I can. What happens after this life is almost inconsequential to me.

[used:)]

I suppose I like a karma based system more. You have limited time in all of the worlds exluding Nirvana. And your bad actions in your present life determines an appropriate punisment in your next life. Eventually your soul is released from the cycle of birth if people pray for it enough, which shows an interesting similarity between Hinduism and Catholicsm where you pray for the soul to escape from Purgatory.

[Patrick Vykkers]

The problem with the sincerity argument is, as Jacob pointed out, that many people do evil while thinking it's right. I.e. rapists, murderers, Nazis, pedos. I do think that God is not restricted to one religion, however, and that it is possible for people of nearly all religions to go to heaven if they follow the most powerful commandment of Christ "Love one another as I have loved you". Cult members, IMO, are not really in their right minds and so it's difficult to know what will happen to them. Probably a spot of purgatory

[Bullet Magnet]

Does anyone know the concept in which God is physically everything? All the matter, energy and dimensions of the universe. To me that sounds like the most sensible concept of God (the guy who first thought of it was put to death), but then it begs the question: Why would He bother with the affairs of us, insignificant vermin crawling about an insignificant speck of a planet?

[Patrick Vykkers]

Pantheism.

[Nate]

The Jewish concept of heaven and hell is... vague, to say the least. No opinion is ventured in the bible - in fact many people in the early (B.C.) days of the religion didn't even believe in heaven or a messiah. And since then, there has been no person who has claimed to 'know' what the afterlife is like. However, the general understanding seems to be similar to what Searex said; that the maximum amount of time you can go to hell is 12 months, before which you get upgraded to heaven (though not the top-notch heaven that all the really good people get sent to). The theory being, that hell is so bad that 12 months is enough to atone for any sin at all.

This also leads on to an interesting theory of why good things happen to bad people. The theory goes that in this life you can do good or bad things and you can be rewarded either in this life or the next. Any reward or punishment is going to be more intense if given in the afterlife than in this one. Now, no person performs purely good or bad acts. So if you see a bad person having good things happen to them, it could be because they are getting all their reward out of the way in this life so they can get a really bad punishment in the next one. And, vice-versa, bad things happening to a good person can be his/her limited punishment in this world so they can get a purer reward in the next one.