Vegetarianism

[Jacob]

I eat meat. I eat fruits too. Gape in awe at my pointlessness.

Anyways, i dont have anything against meat eaters or veggies, however...eco-enviromentalists (Whatever they are called) they do get on my nerves totally. I dont mind them so long as they be quiet and not annoy people. I saw this programme called 'Living with the Enemy' were a Chicken lived with a Fox (Well...thats a lie, it was a Farmer and a Eco protester) for a week. And the Farmer took the Eco person to a Pheasant hunting thing...and they were shooting Pheasants etc and then one landed near the Eco person and he started crying...i personally see this pointless and pathetic. Farming keep Farmers in a job, they keep them out of the cities and give the non-veggies food. The Eco person was just rediculous and i personally think he should of shushed his mouth when it came to him humiliating himself by saying "But we dont have to eat meat, everyone can eat vegitables and fruits." Yes...sure...we can, but soon our resources will run out. I find it quite brutal how some animals are killed for food etc.

All in all i didn't read this thread much...i just thought i'd contribute...did it help at all? No...dint think so. *Sigh*

[abe22]

I don't know why some people can't just respect other peoples opinions? All people need to say is 'in my opinion' instead of saying it as the truth. That's what get's people going the most, I think! I don't give if someone says that I'm a selfish, ignorant and lazy person because I eat meat, it doesn't worry me one bit because you don't know me personally, but it does to some people.

Now, I don't care if this was an argument in the other veghead topics but you veggie people say that we (meat eaters) are killers, but you are hurting the vegetable plants, what is the difference? Tell me please, if there is one. And besides, most vegetables are not genuine anyway (GM, no not government made). And yes, I could kill my own food but I'll let the professionals do it for me.

[PinkHaired Mudokon CWR]

Originally posted by Statikk HDM
Sweet, mother of God, it feels so good to have a debate and get worked up over something!
Why I won't stop eating meat
1: It tastes way too good!
2: The animals are dead anyway, why throw away the carcass?
3: Vegetarian people should worry about their own eating habits and stop being the food police to everyone.They act like imposing, arrogant pricks, and quite frankly, I don't like it.
4 Puts too many people out of work.
5:Who's gonna stop me!I don't get on guilt trips very easily, and it is impossible to persuade me to cry my heart out over the plight of turkeys
6: It seems to me that all the vegetarians care about are the cute animals. For instance dolphin safe tuna. I would rather eat tuna free dolphin or a combination of the two.
When it comes to people refraining from eating meat, I have no bones to pick with any of them. What I do Hate however, is when they try to
"enlighten" you. Back off, bub. If you think being a veghead is cool and helpful and all that happy horeshit, fine, be a veghead, be my guest. But don't go off telling me that liking to eat baby back ribs is a crime

LOL your funny.

But I do agree with number 3. Worry about your own health and stop debating and except other people's choices in life! You can't be going around and arguing with people and calling them ignorant, because of a choice of food. That is ridiculous. If we get heart attacks from the fat and chlolesterol and arteries are clogged... RIGHT ON! GO HEART ATTACK IT MAY BE! LOL. There might be people who are holding on to a piece of meat in the hopsital! This proves no matter how much you try to convince someone to not eat meat, it's not going to work because it's their choice, your going to make them madder, and just learn to except their choice it's their life. If I am selfish and ignorant and lazy for eating meat...then I am, just because I eat meat? Say whatever you want but I am not going to stop eating meat. What does it make you veggies then? Lazy hippies or something? We just don't eat only meat you know! I eat a salad and some fruits a here and there. It's not like we are going out killing endangered species and eating them. I love animals. But if my mom's cooking fried chicken it's so tempting I have to give in!!!! Bwahahaahhahah! The smell! The taste! *mouth is drooling*

AS for the skinny thing....you can't gain weight from eating vegetables! You wanna gain alittle meat on your bones not lose anymore.

AS the allergic thing, it is possible. Because there are some people who are allergic to water!

[Sydney]

Originally posted by Max the Mug
Yes, this arguement is ridiculous. I tried to make that clear myself by saying [snip] Unfortunately, I think either Sydney or I got confused about the difference between 'consciousness' and 'conscience'. The first deals with what Sydney describes, and I definitely agree most species of animal have these attributes (emotion, thoughts, interests, quirks), but the later refers to morals, which we keep coming back to. That's how I've always used the words anyway.

What exactly is ridiculous about defending an animal's behaviour because they have a limited grasp of empathy? You say it's ridiculous, but you don't explain why. You quoted me, but conveniently snipped off the first part of my response which clearly said "they don't possess the capacity to understand the issue, or they're unable to properly digest plants." The inability to understand the issue suggests that their conscience is either nonexistant or underdeveloped. But the posession of a conscience isn't the issue, but rather that we recognise the sophistication of organisms with nervous systems, and that we are grossly disrespecting their rights and interests by taking their lives and consuming their flesh. Morality is only part of the situation once you've levelled all the facts. The facts are:[list=a][*]Animals have interests, desires and emotions[*]They are very much like us in that respect[*]We, unlike other animals, understand that our treatment upon them causes tremendous suffering and confusion[*]The consumption of their flesh is not essential for human health/survival[/list=a]Therefore, I come to the conclusion that those who eat animals place the satisfaction they get above the lives of these beings. These animals are sacrificed for pleasure, not necessity! That is why we can say that meat eating is a symptom of selfishness. These beings suffer for a needless cause.

Originally posted by Max the Mug
That's how I use the word. My morals allow me to do some things that other people couldn't do. Other people's morals, while I can't dispute them directly, may allow Mr Baby Eater to do something I question in myself. Then I'd have to go and persuade him to question his morals, while carefully avoiding trying to directly change them.

Good. But now do you understand why morality is a futile argument in topics such as these? The discussion could end simply with me declaring that eating meat is morally wrong according to my standards, and you and the others could just as easiliy say that eating meat is acceptable within your own moral codes. This is why I introduced the baby eating argument - morality doesn't arbitrarily say it is right or wrong - it depends on who you ask. Therefore, we should look at the facts: A man is taking the lives of unwilling babies to satisfy his tastebuds. He doesn't need to eat babies to survive, but he does it simply because he enjoys it, regardless of the infringement of the babies' interests. This is the argument I have been using all along. Look up at the dot points above. If you continue to eat meat, you must either agree with me that it's a selfish habit, or provide a counter-argument.

Originally posted by Max the Mug
No, I wasn't really denying that, but at the time I didn't really understand it. Reading through the topic since my last post has let me see what you mean though, and I must agree, meat-eating can be defined as selfish. But do you think fox-hunting is selfish?

So you agree that meat eating is selfish. Excellent, that's all I ask. Do I think fox-hunting is selfish? Yes, hiding behind a veil of tradition doesn't hide the fact that these people are enjoying killing animals. As I said before, an activities' duration isn't its justification.

Originally posted by Statikk HDM
It seems to me that all the vegetarians care about are the cute animals.

Evidence please. Pigs are quite ugly, yet we still care about them. I don't know where you got the idea that vegetarians only care about attractive animals, so why not tell us?

Originally posted by Dragadon
To 'force' me to do so would be torture...and that is what it seems to be you are trying to do Syd with this topic. Such hostility turns me off as much as peeps trying to force their religion on me.
Now...that said...I respect you for your beliefs...and I am not about to even try to convice you otherwise, unlike what you seem to be doingcolor. You may not like my eating habits, but you have NO right to try to force YOUR beliefs of the subject down my throat! Do you see me trying to force MY beliefs down YOUR throat!? NO!

I don't see you trying to force your eating-related beliefs down my throat, nor do you have any reason to. My eating habits don't involve the slaughter of innocents. Why is it wrong for me to a be a voice of these defenseless creatures? If your siblings were being killed and eaten, would you protest? Or would you respect the decisions of those who eat your brothers and sisters?

Originally posted by abe22
I don't know why some people can't just respect other peoples opinions? All people need to say is 'in my opinion' instead of saying it as the truth. That's what get's people going the most, I think! I don't give if someone says that I'm a selfish, ignorant and lazy person because I eat meat, it doesn't worry me one bit because you don't know me personally, but it does to some people.

See my response to Dragadon above.

Originally posted by abe22
Now, I don't care if this was an argument in the other veghead topics but you veggie people say that we (meat eaters) are killers, but you are hurting the vegetable plants, what is the difference? Tell me please, if there is one. And besides, most vegetables are not genuine anyway (GM, no not government made). And yes, I could kill my own food but I'll let the professionals do it for me.

Some of us should really start reading the entire topic before we start adding our two cents. As it's been explained, plants don't have a nervous system. They don't feel pain, nor do they have interests or thoughts.

[Wil]

So what exactly do you want the police to do? I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinely don't get how you can support the idea of a police force without supporting the idea of law enforcement...

I don't not support law enforcement, I just don't want to enforce laws on people myself. Y'know, I'm pleased that countries have set standards for inhabitants to live by, but I'm not a grass and I'm not going to go out and say "Oi, you! Stop being a criminal!" or some such thing.

What exactly is ridiculous about defending an animal's behaviour because they have a limited grasp of empathy? You say it's ridiculous, but you don't explain why.

Actually, I was trying to say that argueing "animals eat meat, why shouldn't we?" is ridiculous, and the reasoning has been said before. I recognise perfectly well the mental capabilities of animals, but also that they don't display empathy for their 'victims'. I just hope I've used the word empathy correctly.

Good. But now do you understand why morality is a futile argument in topics such as these?

Yes, I can see that morals alone can in no way 'solve' the problem of the meat-eating/vegetarianism debate. Perhaps I thought that earlier, I can't remember, it was too long ago.

Some of us should really start reading the entire topic before we start adding our two cents. As it's been explained, plants don't have a nervous system. They don't feel pain, nor do they have interests or thoughts.

It's difficult to read an entire topic like this. Until just recently I was the sort of person to skip an entire chunk of it, I've only just gained the attention span to survive such discussions. But you're right.

That's just so hypocritical.

Found out what that means, but I don't agree to it. Like I've said before, I don't enjoy killing anything, but I do feel free to eat meat. Equally, I don't agree with nuclear power and wouldn't dream of working at any facilities related to it or its waste. But I still feel perfectly fine actually using the juice from Sizewell.

[abe22]

But Sydney, they are still living things. You're still taking from the land.

[LuxoJr]

I've been seriously considering going Vegan, partly due to things I've heard from friends and Sydney has mentioned in the past. The difficulty I'm running into is one of getting out of the convenience groove human carnivores are stuck in. I can't really think of many things I could cook without meat in them.

There's also this point:

If you take vegetarianism seriously enough you will abstain from ALL animal products obtained through harmful means.

I'm not questioning Sydney or anybody else's eating habits with this, because I don't know enough about their diets. The jump from the way I eat now (little meat save chicken, and a fair amount of cheese/milk etc.) would be a difficult one. I'm not saying I won't do it, but it's something that I'd really have to prepare first.

So Sydney, I'd appreciate your help if you could give me some advice on how you altered your diet when you made the switch. There's really no argument from healthy carnivores to say that it's worth harming a living creature because it 'tastes good'. And I'm a firm subscriber to the idea that we shouldn't take actions we can't justify properly.

[Sl'askia]

Originally posted by Sydney
I don't see you trying to force your eating-related beliefs down my throat, nor do you have any reason to. (1) My eating habits don't involve the slaughter of innocents. Why is it wrong for me to a be a voice of these defenseless creatures? (2) If your siblings were being killed and eaten, would you protest? Or would you respect the decisions of those who eat your brothers and sisters?(3)

1: That is my point Syd. I am not attacking your beliefs, just how you presented it. You could have been hell of a lot nicer in your presentation of your beliefs. It's like with religion, if you present it the right way then I would be more willing to lend a listening ear.

2: It's not wrong for you to be a voice for them...it was your presentation I was attacking. See number 1.

3: Depends on what you are refering to as my 'brother and sister'. If it was human kin, of course not, they are family and I would defend them as viciously as a wilderbeast defends its calf from the lions. I am sorry...but the 'what if someone ate babies' arguement is weak. We don't see ourselves as an 'acceptable' source of food in the 'moderized' parts of the word. Those that do are considered criminals.

I would go into more detail...but unfortunately...I need to go to work. I will resume when I come back.

[paramiteabe]

I may be a meat eater but I am NOT lazy or ignorite. Not all meat eaters are that. I eat both foods to keep my diet balanced. So I think it is alright to eat meat as long as it is in a healthy manner. I believe that eating both meat and vegtibles is as normal as it gets. But it is perfectly healthy to be a vegiterein as long as you get some source of protean. That is something we all need and every adult humen in this world needs at least 62 grams of protean. It is unhealthy to have absolutly NO protean in your diet. If you had no protean in your diet then you could get really sick with Scruvey and possibly die. But at least there are protean suppliments in this world. You know?

[ZombieX]

Originally posted by Statikk HDM
Sweet, mother of God, it feels so good to have a debate and get worked up over something!
Why I won't stop eating meat
1: It tastes way too good!
2: The animals are dead anyway, why throw away the carcass?
3: Vegetarian people should worry about their own eating habits and stop being the food police to everyone.They act like imposing, arrogant pricks, and quite frankly, I don't like it.
4 Puts too many people out of work.
5:Who's gonna stop me!I don't get on guilt trips very easily, and it is impossible to persuade me to cry my heart out over the plight of turkeys
6: It seems to me that all the vegetarians care about are the cute animals. For instance dolphin safe tuna. I would rather eat tuna free dolphin or a combination of the two.
When it comes to people refraining from eating meat, I have no bones to pick with any of them. What I do Hate however, is when they try to
"enlighten" you. Back off, bub. If you think being a veghead is cool and helpful and all that happy horeshit, fine, be a veghead, be my guest. But don't go off telling me that liking to eat baby back ribs is a crime

1: It tastes way too good!
Fine.

2: The animals are dead anyway, why throw away the carcass?
If everyone threw away the carcass, animals would no longer be killed.

3: Vegetarian people should worry about their own eating habits and stop being the food police to everyone.They act like imposing, arrogant pricks, and quite frankly, I don't like it.
I resent your own arrogant attitude. I am a vegetarian. I don't go shouting or screaming about it, and I certainly don't expect everyone else to be like me. Usually I find it's the meat eating people who impose their views on me as soon as they find out my diet. I then have a choice: fight back and be called a "food policeman", act like a prick and take in all this helpful advice, and ignore it, or start eating meat. Nice. No need to tar EVERYONE with the same brush.

4 Puts too many people out of work.
Fine. Just YOU not eating meat puts everyone in the industry out of work. Okay.

5:Who's gonna stop me!I don't get on guilt trips very easily, and it is impossible to persuade me to cry my heart out over the plight of turkeys
Fine. I just hope you aren't one of these people who believe in re-incarnation cross-species. Wouldn't that be good!

6: It seems to me that all the vegetarians care about are the cute animals. For instance dolphin safe tuna. I would rather eat tuna free dolphin or a combination of the two.
When it comes to people refraining from eating meat, I have no bones to pick with any of them. What I do Hate however, is when they try to
"enlighten" you. Back off, bub. If you think being a veghead is cool and helpful and all that happy horeshit, fine, be a veghead, be my guest. But don't go off telling me that liking to eat baby back ribs is a crime
Golly gosh, aren't we getting excited now! "Vegheads".. that's a new one. As for this enlightening business, two things. Firstly, it works both ways as I said earlier. Secondly, if you have no gripe with vegetarians in general, why are you creating names for them that you think they might not like? Vegheads applies to every vegetarian, not just those who you dislike.
It's like saying:
"I'm not a racist, but I just hate it when those fucking niggers impose their views one me".
As for the cute cuddly animals part, some vegetarians couldn't give a shit. They just don't eat meat for health reasons... you'd be surprised all the hormones they feed those turkeys you were talking about...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by paramiteabe
I may be a meat eater but I am NOT lazy or ignorite. Not all meat eaters are that. I eat both foods to keep my diet balanced. So I think it is alright to eat meat as long as it is in a healthy manner. I believe that eating both meat and vegtibles is as normal as it gets. But it is perfectly healthy to be a vegiterein as long as you get some source of protean. That is something we all need and every adult humen in this world needs at least 62 grams of protean. It is unhealthy to have absolutly NO protean in your diet. If you had no protean in your diet then you could get really sick with Scruvey and possibly die. But at least there are protean suppliments in this world. You know?

Jesus Christ! You're one of these idiotic brown rice and lentil types.. Protein! hello, there is more than just meat around.. tofu, cheese, thousands of other food types. No need for protein supplements. You prove yourself to be ignorant after all.

And scurvey, or "scruvy" is caused by a severe lack of vitamin C anyway. Never mind.


This post is my personal opinion, I speak for no-one else, and I certainly don't want anybody getting all hot headed over it.

Over and out.

[Surfacing]

Originally posted by Sydney

Any meat eater, I challenge you to kill your food before you consume it. Could you do it? Could you look into the big, soulful brown eyes of a cow and slit its throat? End its life because you want to smear the tissues of its body onto your tongue? There would be a greater sense of responsibility on the part of the consumer.

Well actually yes I have done that Sid, at my friends farm I watched him slice the head off a cow, though I don't think I could do it personally simply because I’m not experienced, I wanted it to have a quick swift death, it had of been done by me it wouldn’t have been tortured to death.

I really don't see why you are attacking meat eaters anyway, what do you indeed to accomplish by trying to make us feel guilty about what we eat? You have been consuming alcohol, and smoking weed and cigarettes before you were over the legal age right? You don't see me criticizing you about it, what you want do consume is entirely up to you no one else.

[LuxoJr]

Using drugs affects only you - nothing dies needlessly in the process. And secondary smoke doesn't count if smokers are responsible enough. The 'lecture' is somewhat justified because carnivores result in the death of creatures - it's not a belief, but a fact.

I'm inclined to say that Sydney did come on a little harsh, but this sort of argument won't have any effect if it's passive and neutral.

[Surfacing]

Originally posted by LuxoJr
Using drugs affects only you - nothing dies needlessly in the process. And secondary smoke doesn't count if smokers are responsible enough. The 'lecture' is somewhat justified because carnivores result in the death of creatures - it's not a belief, but a fact.

I'm inclined to say that Sydney did come on a little harsh, but this sort of argument won't have any effect if it's passive and neutral.

Good point, but I still don't see were this topic is going, what are Sid's intentions? The only one I can think of is that his trying to feel meat eaters guilty, and we should stop A.S.A.P.

[Sydney]

Originally posted by Dragadon
1: That is my point Syd. I am not attacking your beliefs, just how you presented it. You could have been hell of a lot nicer in your presentation of your beliefs. It's like with religion, if you present it the right way then I would be more willing to lend a listening ear.

Point taken. But like I've said about three times already now, I was deliberately trying to provoke some heartfelt discussion, as the forums were getting quiet.

Originally posted by Dragadon
2: It's not wrong for you to be a voice for them...it was your presentation I was attacking. See number 1.

See above.

Originally posted by Dragadon
Depends on what you are refering to as my 'brother and sister'. If it was human kin, of course not, they are family and I would defend them as viciously as a wilderbeast defends its calf from the lions.¹ I am sorry...but the 'what if someone ate babies' arguement is weak.² We don't see ourselves as an 'acceptable' source of food in the 'moderized' parts of the word. Those that do are considered criminals.

¹What I was trying to say is that I protest to meat eating being a personal choice that must be respected, because in choosing to eat meat you are stripping another being of its choice to live. It's absurd that you expect respect but don't give it to those you eat. My sibling analogy was intended to make you see things from my perspective, in that you feel obliged to protect those who are being taken advantage of by pleasure-seekers. ²No, the baby-eating argument is not weak. Note that I didn't compare eating meat to eating babies, I only used it to show the futility of an argument revolving around morals.

ZombieX covered paramiteabe's post, so I'll skip it.

Originally posted by Surfacing
I really don't see why you are attacking meat eaters anyway, what do you indeed to accomplish by trying to make us feel guilty about what we eat?

I am attacking meat-eaters because they attack animals. As I've said countless times already, I'm merely pointing out the realities of your decisions. I just want to make people aware that meat eating is not essential, and that the reasons for meat-eating are based in selfishness.

Originally posted by Surfacing
You have been consuming alcohol, and smoking weed and cigarettes before you were over the legal age right? You don't see me criticizing you about it, what you want do consume is entirely up to you no one else.

Marijuana, tobacco and alcohol were never conscious beings with thoughts, feelings and emotions. The things I consume never had brains. You're forgetting that the animals you eat may not want to be consumed, so is it right for you to do so? If the things I consume are entirely up to me, then why not drop around my house and offer your brain for me to sautée. On second thoughts, it might not be much of a meal.

Originally posted by LuxoJr
So Sydney, I'd appreciate your help if you could give me some advice on how you altered your diet when you made the switch. There's really no argument from healthy carnivores to say that it's worth harming a living creature because it 'tastes good'. And I'm a firm subscriber to the idea that we shouldn't take actions we can't justify properly.

My transition from omnivore to a vegetarian began with originally eliminating red meat from my diet, then I eventually stopped eating fish and chicken. I suggest investing in a simple vegetarian cookbook, it will give you a lot of ideas on what to eat. As for altering your diet, just make sure you eat plenty of greens. There's plenty of wonderful soy products available. Since giving up meat I feel fresher, lighter and more motivated.

[PinkHaired Mudokon CWR]

There we go again. Here comes the "other animals eat meat, why couldn't we?" argument... Because we know better. And besides, animals, who eat meat kill it themselves, which is, on my opinion, more acceptable than letting someone do the dirty work for you.

There are some people who don't know better too! Your saying that all humans know better? What about rapist? Murders? Theives? Your saying that they know better? If they do, then why do those things?

P.S., not all animals kill their food. Have you ever heard of scavengers who feed on dead animals?

I am attacking meat-eaters because they attack animals. As I've said countless times already, I'm merely pointing out the realities of your decisions. I just want to make people aware that meat eating is not essential, and that the reasons for meat-eating are based in selfishness

When my mom cooks like chicken or something and we have no vegetables, I have no choice but to eat the chicken. My mom also brings alot of chicken and stuff around the house, and I can't say to my mom "Stop briging meat around the house!" She would look at me like I am crazy. Does that make me selfish, lazy and ignorant then? It's like your saying that any reason, no matter what the situations are of eating meat, it makes you selfish, lazy and ignorant. I know I'm not these things. Your only making yourself look crazy by calling people who eat meat these things. And some of the foods I eat are based upon my puerto-rican/African culture!

Also, I don't eat that much beef.

ANd Dan, when Stat talk about take care of your own health, he meant to worry about YOUR OWN health and not the health of other people.

P.s, sorry if I edit too much.

[LuxoJr]

When you move out of home things get easier. After I got my own place I found that the price of meat sort of dictated my diet - and so I've mainly lived on vegetables dishes and bread as a snack.

How about fish, though? I know it's generally not considered a meat because many people see them on the same level as plants, but that shouldn't necessarily dictate their fate.

[PinkHaired Mudokon CWR]

Yeah I love fish also. Fish is quite healthy.

[Wil]

How about fish, though? I know it's generally not considered a meat because many people see them on the same level as plants, but that shouldn't necessarily dictate their fate.

Meat - the flesh of animals. If a fish isn't an animal it's either a plant, a fungi, a protoetist or a monera. As far as I'm aware, fish do not photosynthesise, nor are there any single-cellular fish.

When you move out of home things get easier. After I got my own place I found that the price of meat sort of dictated my diet - and so I've mainly lived on vegetables dishes and bread as a snack.

Does this mean I have to wait 4 years before I can become vegetarian? But what advice do you give a wannabe vegetarian who is still at the mercy of his parents' cooking, considering these parents' shun my grandparents for being veggie?

[Fazerina]

Oo... too many posts. I read almost everything, but I'm only going to answer PinkHaired now...

Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon
HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT YOU KNOW ALOT MORE FACTS THEN I DO? YOU DON'T KNOW ME. THAT'S WHY I CALLED YOU IGNORANT BECAUSE YOU ARE SOMETIMES. But I don't care because no one knows me personally in this forum. I am not insecure with myself and I don't care what people think about me here because they don't know me or anything.

You're always saying that people on the forums don't know you, and yes, that is true, they haven't meat you IRL and it can be that they don't really know you, but still... you get a quite good image from 2405 posts. Plus the ones on Ezboard... I don’t think anyone would waste their time so much just to post thousands of posts saying stuff they don’t agree with… so we do have an image of your personality and beliefs. And of your lack of knowledge in some issues, as well… I said I know a lot more facts on this issue than you do, and I believe I do. Because according to your posts, you don’t know the facts.

I flamed you because your always assuming stuff and you don't know what you are talkign about. "Good. I know there's a different. I said there is a difference! You just seem to think that I and other veggies on the board don't know that. We do."-I was not saying that no one did

Exactly where have I been assuming stuff or haven't known what I am talking about? Of course there are many things from which I don't know anything about, but I haven’t been posting to any topics like that on the forums, because of my lack of information in these subjects. What comes to this particular quote, I am not assuming anything. I’m just referring to past topics about this issue, where you have argued about if we are animals or not and the differences between other animals and us. You were saying it there. Anyway, I'm sorry if I confused you. I just remember the old topics and what was said in there and while typing I can’t be sure if something was said in this or some other topic…

Your not going to have a peaceful argument if you are calling people ignorant, and lazy! If you think eating meat is wrong, okay. It's just as stupid to try to force someone to do something and to convince them not to do it. That's inhumane and cruel. I use to do that, but now I realize that it's cruel and your just as terrible and I've learned from my mistakes.

Yes, I know. I’m sorry. Read through my posts carefully and you can see I haven’t forced anyone to not eating meat! What I’ve said is that you don’t have to eat meat to be healthy.
You have ? Well, good for you, then…

Originally posted by Danny
Jenni, don't try to reason with Pinky. I've tried. It's possible, but really not worth the hassle...

It is? I know, I shouldn’t bother, but I haven’t been active in the forums for long time, so now I’ve got too much energy and I just can’t resist. I know it’s pointless, though…

Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR
If I am selfish and ignorant and lazy for eating meat...then I am, just because I eat meat?

Whoah! Hold your horses! You have obviously missed my point. Again. *sigh* I have never said that all meat-eaters are lazy and ignorant. I called you ignorant, because you don't know the facts! Not because you eat meat. You keep saying, that you have to eat meat to stay healthy, which is not true. Why I called you lazy, is that you don't go and study the facts! You obviously don't know them, but you don't go and find out, no. What you do is keep arguing with the same false arguments. I'm not saying you're a bad person, because you eat meat. I just don't like it, that you defend your eating habits by saying that you must eat meat, which isn't true.

What does it make you veggies then? Lazy hippies or something?

Yes, I am a lazy hippie.

We just don't eat only meat you know!

Yes, I do know. Unlike you don't know that veggies don't eat just fruit and vegetables. [referring to an old topic again, sorry if it gets too complicated for you...]

AS for the skinny thing....you can't gain weight from eating vegetables! You wanna gain alittle meat on your bones not lose anymore.

Wrong again... I've been a vegetarian for five months and in that time I have gained weight. 10 kg, to be precise. *eep*

There are some people who don't know better too! Your saying that all humans know better? What about rapist? Murders? Theives? Your saying that they know better? If they do, then why do those things?

We are not talking about rapists and murderers in here. No, I'm not saying all humans know better. [Actually, I personally think we are the stupidest animal species around. Killing and hurting each other, other animals and our own planet.] I was saying we know better [not everyone, of course, e.g. you] in the issue, that we can survive and be healthy without eating meat. *wonders how many times she has already posted that sentence on this thread* *sighs*

P.S., not all animals kill their food. Have you ever heard of scavengers who feed on dead animals?

*sigh* Yes, I have.

What is your point in this, again? Actually, that's a lot better, than killing the animals yourself.

When my mom cooks like chicken or something and we have no vegetables, I have no choice but to eat the chicken. My mom also brings alot of chicken and stuff around the house, and I can't say to my mom "Stop briging meat around the house!" She would look at me like I am crazy.

Don't you have your own mind in U.S.? It isn't your mom's choice, it's yours. Just say you want to eat the freaking meat and stop making excuses!

Does that make me selfish, lazy and ignorant then? It's like your saying that any reason, no matter what the situations are of eating meat, it makes you selfish, lazy and ignorant. I know I'm not these things. Your only making yourself look crazy by calling people who eat meat these things.

Look above. Never have said such a thing.

And some of the foods I eat are based upon my puerto-rican/African culture!

I eat traditional Finnish foods as well. Without meat.

[PinkHaired Mudokon CWR]

You're always saying that people on the forums don't know you, and yes, that is true, they haven't meat you IRL and it can be that they don't really know you, but still... you get a quite good image from 2405 posts. Plus the ones on Ezboard... I don’t think anyone would waste their time so much just to post thousands of posts saying stuff they don’t agree with… so we do have an image of your personality and beliefs. And of your lack of knowledge in some issues, as well… I said I know a lot more facts on this issue than you do, and I believe I do. Because according to your posts, you don’t know the facts.

There's some facts that I don't know, but not everything I imply to, I don't have the facts to. Do you have the facts all the time?

Exactly where have I been assuming stuff or haven't known what I am talking about? Of course there are many things from which I don't know anything about, but I haven’t been posting to any topics like that on the forums, because of my lack of information in these subjects. What comes to this particular quote, I am not assuming anything. I’m just referring to past topics about this issue, where you have argued about if we are animals or not and the differences between other animals and us. You were saying it there. Anyway, I'm sorry if I confused you. I just remember the old topics and what was said in there and while typing I can’t be sure if something was said in this or some other topic…

Apology excepted. I have over-reacted also too. But you can't always bring up old topics. The past is the past you should let them go. Especially if there are apologies made in the topic and you want to forgive and forget the situation. Your not really forgiving and forgetting if you keep briging up the same thing and it gets old pretty quick and quite annoying.

Whoah! Hold your horses! You have obviously missed my point. Again. *sigh* I have never said that all meat-eaters are lazy and ignorant. I called you ignorant, because you don't know the facts! Not because you eat meat. You keep saying, that you have to eat meat to stay healthy, which is not true. Why I called you lazy, is that you don't go and study the facts! You obviously don't know them, but you don't go and find out, no. What you do is keep arguing with the same false arguments. I'm not saying you're a bad person, because you eat meat. I just don't like it, that you defend your eating habits by saying that you must eat meat, which isn't true.

Wow, look at the facts other people have. "I eat meat because it makes me fell good," "Nutrition." I'm not ignorant or lazy because I know my facts and you don't know any of my research habits. I did not say I have to eat meat to stay healthy! You did not even read my post correctly. I eat meat for the nutrition and I don't eat meat alone! I have like salad or vegetables with it. And what type of facts are you talking about? Besides arguing with the same issue, you need to explain more on what you mean by your so-called "facts". What am I going to research? "20 answers why not to eat meat ?" Or "20 questions to eat meat?" It's a choice to eat meat you don't need to research that's stupid. Research on what? If you tell me I could research but you never told me what I should research that's why I called you ignorant ! You need to think before you act and before you call someone ignorant for no reason and lazy because it's going to get you into a lot of mess.

Yes, I do know. Unlike you don't know that veggies don't eat just fruit and vegetables. [referring to an old topic again, sorry if it gets too complicated for you...]

Who said that. Hmmm, well their nothing else to eat..what about Dairy? Or meat? If you just don't eat fruits and vegetables, what else is their to eat besides dairy and candy. I've seen some veggies sneek a hamburger and eat it under the table a few times.

Wrong again... I've been a vegetarian for five months and in that time I have gained weight. 10 kg, to be precise. *eep*

Don't count candy and doritos and chocolate! Of course your going to gain weight! Aduh. I've just eaten like fruits and vegetables for a week (for a diet) and I did'nt gain any weight. I was healthy still.

We are not talking about rapists and murderers in here. No, I'm not saying all humans know better. [Actually, I personally think we are the stupidest animal species around. Killing and hurting each other, other animals and our own planet.] I was saying we know better [not everyone, of course, e.g. you] in the issue, that we can survive and be healthy without eating meat. *wonders how many times she has already posted that sentence on this thread* *sighs*

Wow, can't say that you don't know better. since you know me so well...then you think I don't know better.

Don't you have your own mind in U.S.? It isn't your mom's choice, it's yours. Just say you want to eat the freaking meat and stop making excuses!

Duh everyone has a mind of their own. I was just referring to the rules of the house. If your parents say something, then it's going to be done because it's their house. If I have my own house I would run my own way! Bwahahahahha!

Look above. Never have said such a thing.

I was talking to Sydman.

I eat traditional Finnish foods as well. Without meat.

And your point may be? Name one spanish food that does not have meat in it? except maybe a few but they taste nasty. i can't eat them without gagging. LOL!!!

[Statikk HDM]

Not to be a downer, Faz, but finnish food without meat isn't traditional unless the finnish fod didn't have meat in it to begin with.
I don't see what the hooplah is about. And their definately is hooplah, dammit! I can smell hooplah a mile away! So, what you vegetarians are trying to do is make us your bretheren. I don't see how calling meat eaters greedy and just generally being bitches about the topic is going to convert anyone.Im sorry for calling you names and insulting your beliefs as happy horseshit.
I won't call it happy horseshit as long as you lay off the name calling and insulting too!

[Fazerina]

Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR
But you can't always bring up old topics. The past is the past you should let them go. Especially if there are apologies made in the topic and you want to forgive and forget the situation. Your not really forgiving and forgetting if you keep briging up the same thing and it gets old pretty quick and quite annoying.

Like I said, I can't remember all the time if something's said in this topic or somewhere else , but I do agree on that, that you shouldn't dig someone's old post back, because his/her opinions may have changed, so sorry for that. I don't know if you have changed your mind on that or not...

I'm not ignorant or lazy because I know my facts and you don't know any of my research habits. I did not say I have to eat meat to stay healthy! You did not even read my post correctly. I eat meat for the nutrition and I don't eat meat alone! I have like salad or vegetables with it.

Yes, I read your post correctly... So you're saying that you don't have to eat meat to stay healthy, but you need to eat it for nutrition? Aren't they the same thing? I meen... if you want to stay healthy, you have to eat like nutrition tells you. So I don't get what you mean with this... I know you don't eat meat alone. I already said it in my previous post. Of course you don't eat just meat. Why on earth would I think something like that?!

And what type of facts are you talking about? Besides arguing with the same issue, you need to explain more on what you mean by your so-called "facts". What am I going to research? "20 answers why not to eat meat ?" Or "20 questions to eat meat?" It's a choice to eat meat you don't need to research that's stupid. Research on what?

Okey. By facts I mean facts about human body and nutrition. What we need to survive? And that you can get everything you need without eating meat. And vegans, who don't eat or drink anything, which comes from an animal, can get everything they need from their diet, except for vitamin B-12.

Hmmm, well their nothing else to eat..what about Dairy? Or meat? If you just don't eat fruits and vegetables, what else is their to eat besides dairy and candy.

Nothing else to eat? There are plenty of things to eat! I eat everything, except for meat, so that still leaves you with a lot of options. You just said yourself that you eat many other things than meat. So... there are still many other things to eat. I do eat dairy, yes. I'm an ovo-lacto-vegetarian, which means I do eat eggs and dairy. Other wise it'd be too difficult for my mother and everyone. When I'm moving on my own, I'll probably turn to vegan.

I've seen some veggies sneek a hamburger and eat it under the table a few times.

Well, they aren't real veggies then. I don't eat hamburgers under the table, except for veggie burgers of course, which I do eat, but I'm sure you meant meat-ones.

Don't count candy and doritos and chocolate! Of course your going to gain weight! Aduh. I've just eaten like fruits and vegetables for a week (for a diet) and I did'nt gain any weight. I was healthy still.

Well it isn't healthy to eat just fruit and vegetables! Just make sure you don't make yourself sick! I'm on a diet as well, but I'm making sure I'll stay healthy. And besides, you said you're skinny... so why on earth would you need a diet? *mumbles something about the stupid world we're living in, where women are supposed to look like barbie dolls*

Duh everyone has a mind of their own. I was just referring to the rules of the house. If your parents say something, then it's going to be done because it's their house. If I have my own house I would run my own way! Bwahahahahha!

You don't always have to do like they say, you know! But a decicion that big is something you should be able to do, if you want to. And I was able to. Although we shouted and cried with my mother and she and my sister tried to talk me out of it, but I had my way in the end. Because they love me and respect my choice, because it means much to me. And you can always compromise. Like I'm a vegetarian as long as I live with my parents and I'm turning to vegan later...

I was talking to Sydman.

Comprehend. I didn't read all the posts through...

And your point may be? Name one spanish food that does not have meat in it? except maybe a few but they taste nasty. i can't eat them without gagging. LOL!!!

Well I'm not an expert on Spanish food. And I don't know probably any Finnish foods either, which contain no meat. I meant, that I cook the typical foods, but replace the meat with beans or soy etc...

[Sl'askia]

Originally posted by Sydney:
It's absurd that you expect respect but don't give it to those you eat.(1) My sibling analogy was intended to make you see things from my perspective, in that you feel obliged to protect those who are being taken advantage of by pleasure-seekers.(2)

1: I do have respect for those I eat...they enable me to feed my body so I can live for another day. The same with any other meat eating animal.

2: I don't eat meat for pleasure. Yes it tastes good to me, but I consume it for the same reason I stated in number 1

Now...this next part may not seem to belong in this topic...but it will give you and idea of the where and how I stand on this issue. (apologies in advance for anything in the following that offends you)

If meat products have no nutritional value that can't be gained from plant matter, then why isn't there a wide spread push in human society to stop eating meat?
Because the majority of the human race sees eating meat as much a part of our daily lives as it was for our ancestors. Technically...we are not even supposed to be consuming dairy products beyond infancy, as our adult bodies are not designed to be able to digest it, but do we stop in this day and age? No.
The problem is that due to our advancement...humans as a majority are more concerned with living as long as possible...to beat death as long as possible, rather then live as a part of nature as we did thousands of years ago. With the exception of a few scattered human tribes that have followed the old ways for generations, humans are no longer living as an actual part of nature. Instead we are forcing it to bend to our wills, destroying it in the process.
Yes I disagree with how we 'get' the steaks to our table and I would love it to be done in a more 'natural' way. But we are too engrained in the 'unnatural' way of obtaining our food. Not only that but the humans as a race have grown too lazy and unfit to survive out in the wild like the rest of our fellow animals. Too often now the weak has survived to procreate...and our gene pool is polluted and weakened as a result. Yes...we are advancing to a point where we can 'fix' those genetic problems, but my point is that we should have never have had a need to do that in the first place, if we had continued to follow the way of our ancestors. Our intelligence has gotten us this far, but it is also a curse in this regard.
Yes...I am against human progress (as it was hinted at in my 'medicine' example in my first post on this topic)...and I know I am probably one of the very few that believe this way. So, yes...I have a very 'unique' outlook on the human race.
What the hell does this all have to do with this topic? Well my point is that if we weren't so dependent on our own technological advances for everything in our daily lives...we wouldn't be having this discussion. I eat meat because it is what nature intended me to eat as an omnivore. If I were to only eat plants...I would have been born a rabbit or some other 'prey' animal. Yes we are the most intelligent life form on this planet that we know of...but that doesn't mean we should deny our nature, for we are still animals like all the others.
Eat what you want, perhaps when you pass from this life the powers that be will get it right next time and have you reborn as a pure herbivore.
Yes...I most likely offended a lot of vegetarians and vegans with that last sentence, but is true. If we were meant to only eat one way...we would have been made that way. (like the 'if humans were meant to fly they would have been born with wings' bit) Just because we have a brain and a sense of 'morals' doesn't mean we shouldn't act as nature intended. We still do in many instances, though in a 'round about way'. We fight each other over territory and resources for instance.(The only difference is that since we are intelligent we can think of more 'creative' ways to fight for it (oh like guns, bombs, etc...We are even getting to the point were we can send robots in to fight for us.)). We 'migrate' when the whether turns cold in winter...and return when spring comes. (if you don't believe that you obviously never been to Florida and experienced the influx of retires in winter) We are nothing but animals with a large brain, with the unique ability to actually think, create, and modify our environment.
One more thing for this rant:
You invited us meat eaters to go kill our own food. Well, lets be fair now...I invite you to go gather your own fruits and veggies in the wilderness (no...your garden doesn't count). If the only way you will accept our meat eating ways is for us to kill it ourselves...then you go gather your own food like us. If you can't do that...then sit down and shut up about it.
Yes I am being harsh here...but that is in response to your own harshness toward us.

*sits back and waits for the flames*

[DarkHoodness]

Well, I've read almost all of this argument. Since I can't really be botherd to particapate in the discussion, I will only put my point of view foward. . .
Eating meat isn't wrong. I only don't eat meat because of the way the animals are kept, and the way they are slaughterd. The only meat I do eat is Tuna (and I don't eat very much of it), because suffocating to death is better then being ripped to shreads from limb to limb while still alive. I addmitedly eat Tuna purely for selfish reasons, since I don't need to eat it. Also, recently I've been trying to ween myself off of ordinary cows milk, and onto organic milk and soya milk. The way they produce ordinary cows milk isn't very nice, since they take the calves away from thier mothers. I don't think they take the calves away from the cows on the organic farms, but I'm not too sure. I'm gonna go find out for myself soon, though.
I also eat cheese, which is another dairy product. And yes, I only eat cheese for selfish reasons. Oh, and I never eat eggs if they aren't free range.
Anyway, I belive that you probably should go and hunt and kill the animal yourself before you eat it, and kill it in a humane way. I'd do it, but I don't because:
1. There isn't anything to hunt around here, save for grey squirrels, foxes and wood pidgeons (Ugh! ).
2. I don't need to. There are plenty of vegatarian products for sale everywhere, so I can get enough nutrition off of them.
3. I've been vegatarian all my life, and I'm not used to meat.
I think thats about it.
- DH

[Surfacing]

Originally posted by Sydney
I'm merely pointing out the realities of your decisions. I just want to make people aware that meat eating is not essential, and that the reasons for meat-eating are based in selfishness.Marijuana, tobacco and alcohol were never conscious beings with thoughts, feelings and emotions. The things I consume never had brains. You're forgetting that the animals you eat may not want to be consumed, so is it right for you to do so? If the things I consume are entirely up to me, then why not drop around my house and offer your brain for me to sautée. On second thoughts, it might not be much of a meal.

That last comment was below the belt, and yes it is entirely up to you what you want to consume along as it's ready to be eaten or smoked ect ect... Stop trying to make your self feel good about your diet by attacking meat eaters.

[Jacob]

Its interesting. Fruit and Veg are plants and plants are living beings also...yet people are willing to eat them because they dont show no emotion etc.

On a different note Marijuana comes from a plant and thus was a concious being. Who knows whether plants can think or not...nobody knows for certain. Its basically like saying "This Rock is not alive" how do we know? Just because it doesn't have a heart etc doesn't mean its not alive. People assume to much...and when brought up with certain points they disregard them, thinking their way is right etc or ethicly correct.

I dont have a prob with meat eaters, i dont agree with the slaughter of certain animals however and the way that they are killed. I personally believe that to be wrong, if the animal feels pain...i dont like it. But i wont give up eating something just because its hurting the animal.

[PinkHaired Mudokon CWR]

Vitamin K is a fat-soluble vitamin that plays an important role in blood clotting

Okey. By facts I mean facts about human body and nutrition. What we need to survive? And that you can get everything you need without eating meat. And vegans, who don't eat or drink anything, which comes from an animal, can get everything they need from their diet, except for vitamin B-12.

Wow, if you weren't too busy judging me and calling me names, you would know more about me! I know my human anatomy and nutrition. I know my fat and water soluble vitamin. You don't know if I am doing research so stop saying that I am not because you do not know what I am doing! Vitamin k is good for clotting and the bones; D for the skin; C for the immune system; E for oxidation; A for eyes, hair, nails and skin; Fiber to clean out your system because you cannot digest fiber; Biotin helps convert food to energy required for the synthesis of carbohydrates, proteins, and fatty acids, healthy hair, skin, and nails. cell growth.nerve tissue and sweat glands;B vitamins should be taken as a complex and not individually unless specially recommended; B vitamins maintain the health of the metabolism, skin, hair and muscle, immune and nervous system, eyes, liver, digestion system. I know that stuff! I know every vitamin and mineral known to man! I took nutrition classes before. So before you call some one ignorant and lazy, ask people first if they know anything about nutrition and the human body.

Well it isn't healthy to eat just fruit and vegetables! Just make sure you don't make yourself sick! I'm on a diet as well, but I'm making sure I'll stay healthy. And besides, you said you're skinny... so why on earth would you need a diet? *mumbles something about the stupid world we're living in, where women are supposed to look like barbie dolls*

Then what are you arguing about?! Your saying that we should eat fruits and vegetables and meat is bad. And yes, I want a shape like Barbie. But I love my stick-figure big boobs and by big butt body!

Eating meat to me is not wrong. It's fine unless you abuse it, yeah then it is bad.

I mean c'mon, you probably have eaten a hamburger once in a blue mood. Or once in your lifetime. Can you resist the mouth-watering temptation? I mean, some veggies give in. Your not going to be a perfect veggie all the time.

[Jacob]

It's fine unless you abuse it, yeah then it is bad.

Yes...cos we have had enough of those damn Meat-a-holics. Damn them.

(Just incase my tone of voice doesn't get through there i have rated that sentence a 'S' for Sarcasm.)

[Sydney]

Originally posted by Dragadon
1: I do have respect for those I eat...they enable me to feed my body so I can live for another day. The same with any other meat eating animal.

2: I don't eat meat for pleasure. Yes it tastes good to me, but I consume it for the same reason I stated in number 1

Like I've said countless times, the argument for eating meat because it allows you to live another day is flawed. I haven't eaten meat for years, yet I'm alive and well - there's your proof that it isn't essential for you to survive. You are not respecting the animals you eat, because you're not acknowledging that they don't want to die.

If meat products have no nutritional value that can't be gained from plant matter, then why isn't there a wide spread push in human society to stop eating meat?

Because most of society is based around pleasure-seeking. The fact is most people find meat tastes nice, and aren't willing to give it up becuse they are selfish. That is what my whole argument is about.

...humans as a majority are more concerned with living as long as possible...to beat death as long as possible, rather then live as a part of nature as we did thousands of years ago...

I'm not quite sure how this supports your agument, as on average, vegetarians live longer than those who eat meat.

[/b]You invited us meat eaters to go kill our own food. Well, lets be fair now...I invite you to go gather your own fruits and veggies in the wilderness (no...your garden doesn't count). If the only way you will accept our meat eating ways is for us to kill it ourselves...then you go gather your own food like us. If you can't do that...then sit down and shut up about it.[/B]

You've completely missed my point. I asked meat-eaters to kill the animals they eat because the process of killing another living being is shocking. I was protesting that the majority of those who eat meat are detatched from the process of slaughter.

Originally posted by Jacob
Its interesting. Fruit and Veg are plants and plants are living beings also...yet people are willing to eat them because they dont show no emotion etc.

On a different note Marijuana comes from a plant and thus was a concious being. Who knows whether plants can think or not...nobody knows for certain. Its basically like saying "This Rock is not alive" how do we know? Just because it doesn't have a heart etc doesn't mean its not alive. People assume to much...and when brought up with certain points they disregard them, thinking their way is right etc or ethicly correct.

Marijuana comes from a plant and thus was a conscious being? I don't know if I should take you seriously, Jacob. The most stupid argument I have ever heard that attempts to villify vegetarians is that "plants have feelings, too." If you're going to declare something, you're going to need something to back it up. Using your logic:

Cornelius: We shouldn't visit the moon because we will squash the invisible unicorns living there!

Penelope: But there are no invisible unicorns on the moon!

Cornelius: But nobody knows for certain...

The burden of proof remains with you. Take a class in biology before you claim that plants have feelings.

[Sl'askia]

Syd my last post was just to let you know the basis of how and why I feel eating meat is ok. I would rant more on that, but what I was saying there is a whole other topic in on itself...and I can promise you it wouldn't be a popular one. (BTW I am surprised no one has commented on the article I posted in my first post on this topic)

Here is something to think about in regards to plants. You can have a perfectly healthly and thriving planet in the yard. Yet when you transplant it to a new location it goes into a state of shock and can possiblely die.
No, a plant can't feel pain like we do...but the fact they can go into shock must mean something....