Vegetarianism
 

The only reason why people continue to eat meat is because of selfishness, those meat-eaters who are not selfish may use the excuse of ignorance.

When you ask someone why they eat meat, they occasionally respond with "Because it tastes good." But often they become agressive and start spouting "facts" about humans being omnivorous, or needing protein from meat, or iron, or some other idea that they really have very little understanding of. It has long since been established that a human being will live perfectly healthy on a diet consisting of non-animal products. In fact, such people have been known to have a lesser instance of high blood pressure, cancer and heart disease, etc. The benefits of a vegetarian diet are astounding.

Most vegetarians, however, do not reject meat for the reasons of a healthier lifestyle. It is just an extra benefit packaged with a more important issue. Few people see how their slabs of plastic-wrapped steaks get to their dinner plate. Few stop to even realise that the dripping piece of burnt flesh on their fork was actually a part of a living, breathing, blinking creature less than a week ago. It had a face, a mother and a brain that was capable of pain and thought. It's easier to see your meat as always looking like it did when you bought it. Few people have an emotional reaction to such notions because they're detatched from the physical act of botched electric shocks, throats being slit and limbs being sawn off fully conscious animals. Every meat-eating person in the western world is an accomplice to what happens in slaughterhouses. Each of these persons only associate these animals with food. They're not living creatures with desires, thoughts and feelings. They're simply raw materials to be exploited, diced up and devoured by greedy families who could satisfy their hunger sufficiently with other foods. But they choose to destroy lives to satisfy their hunger, just because to them, animals taste a little better.

Any meat eater, I challenge you to kill your food before you consume it. Could you do it? Could you look into the big, soulful brown eyes of a cow and slit its throat? End its life because you want to smear the tissues of its body onto your tongue? There would be a greater sense of responsibility on the part of the consumer.

Is such concern for animals a joke? If you think yes, then you are a victim of the meat industry, who make us think we have less in common with animals than we do. You think we're special. To a degree, we are. But remove our clothes, destroy our cities and burn our books; we are nothing more than animals who can communicate with each other in a slightly more sophisticated manner. The fact that our species stores its information in libraries is what allows our environment to change so dramatically. These few factors contribute to the differences that we perceive make us great. How many of you will develop a vaccine for cancer? How many of you will be compared to Mozart, Einstein or Pasteur? Few humans will accomplish something that will change the world. Perhaps you will pump out a few babies, and they will be your life's greatest acheivements. It's nothing more than what any other in the animal kingdom can accomplish.

Compassion for all living creatures is necessary for the growth of our species. It's only then that we can come close to differentiating ourselves from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Very nice, Sydney. A good topic for discussion. However, I couldn't help thinking this might offend people's philosophy on meat-eating, which is just as bad as offending a person's religion. By all means, make us question our ways of life, but

just sounds a bit...well, derogatory.

Please don't misunderstand, although I've probably made it very easy for you to do so - I am seriously considering going vegetarian, as you may already know. I haven't yet decided that eating meat is wrong. My morals don't have much of a say on the subject, except I don't eat lizards, amphibeons or invertibrates.

I agree that it's possible to leave an equally healthy existance without the consumption of meat. I know for a fact that a human can live on fruit alone. But then you haven't made a similar subject about junk food, which is definitely a worse consumable.

I also agree that the current meat/animal slaughter industry is disgraceful. However, that alone isn't really sufficient reason to go vegetarian. If the killing of livestock was done humanely, I think not so many people would jump from a full diet to a vegetarian one. The cruelty of some people/businesses is no reason to consider eating animals ethically wrong.

I wouldn't take it out on them so. After all, humans have been omnivores for thousands of years, and biologically we still are. Nutritional facts aside, why should Mr Random, here, be forced to stop eating meat? Other omnivores and carnivores aren't considered to be immoral in their meat-eating, humans shouldn't be either. If you're going to suggest these creatures don't have a conscience to speak of, that doesn't really address the problem, because it's not these species that have the problem, it's us.

No, I couldn't do that. Doesn't sersuade me to give up eating meat, though. Know why? Because I may eat meat, but I'm not a killer. I don't harm any living thing if I can help it. I find doing so ethically wrong. If other people don't find it ethically wrong, then that's fine by me. I shouldn't have to interfere with their morals, because I'm not ever going to share their soul. Nicking things from school doesn't put a scar on my karma because I don't think it's wrong. Equally, a great wadge of the population aren't spiritually affected by meat-eating because their morals don't consider it to be wrong. And isn't changing somebody's morals to match your own regarded as being 'wrong'?

You mean there are animals besides humans that have been as productive to their own species as Mozart, Einstein and Pasteur?

Re: Vegetarianism
 

Before I start losing this argument, I would like to say that while you, as always, are very good at getting a point across, I'm getting quite tired of hearing you fanatically push this vegetarian stuff on us. Now, I know that this is not your intent, but I do find it offensive. The truth hurts, some say (applying to other meat eaters and I)... but perhaps you could lay off on calling us greedy and ignorant

You, perhaps, are correct about the "greedy" statement. But I know for a fact that I eat meat for 2 reasons, both of which aren't greed.
1. I enjoy the taste.
2. I'm too lazy (not greedy) to stop eating meat.
Everytime I eat meat (which is only on rare occasions now, as if that makes a difference) I do know that this was once alive. If I was willing to put forth more effort to stop eating things that were once alive, I would. Now I know this sounds greedy and ignorant, that is not the case. It's just I really don't care. It's just the kind of person I am. Call me insensitive, call me uncompassionate, but it the end, that is the only "excuse" I have for eating meat. I just don't care enough to stop eating things that were once living, breathing creatures, like you and I.

Another thing I noticed is that several butchers are meat eaters. All hunters that go out and kill animals for fun actually eat what they have killed, even after they know that they are the cause of the animals demise. So I guess that steps up to your challenge. Even if we did have to kill our flesh before we ate it, people would soon consider this a common ritual, and things would go on as they always had. Humans eating meat, for no other reason but to feed their bellies.

Yeah I agree wiwth Max.

Lso, just because people eat meat does not make them selfish and ignorant. You don't know what people's issues are. I eat meat for the nutrition. I can't just eat fruits and vegetables all the time I'm skinny and I need my protein. I also am lactose intolerant. Does that make me ignorant and selfish because I don't drink milk? So, you really can't judge anyone or their reason to eat meat.


When if it's a health issue? I know someone who's allergic to strawberries, and bananas and squash. She can't really digest these foods. When if some one were to be allergic to fruits and vegetables and have to take supplements or have to eat meat in order to prevent themselves of starvation or malnutrition?


You species info is interesting. If you say eating meat is wrong and stuff for us, why can't you say that to a monkey? (since some are omnivores like the Pata Monkey and the baboon) Since you think that animals can reason, well I dare you to try to reason with a monkey not to eat meat then and change into a vegetarian.

Good post, Sydney. I agree with you.

So you couldn't kill an animal yourself, but you think it's perfectly okey to let other people, who don't think it's wrong, do the dirty work for you and then you happily eat the meat, not thinking about it. That's just so hypocritical.

You may think what you want, but if you support the killers, it makes you a reason for them to go on. They are killing the animals for you, so that makes you atleast partly the killer. You may say I'm going extreme, and yes I am, because you can't say that some cow is killed specially for you and it could live, if you stopped eating meat, and like my mom said to me, when I told her I wanted to become vegetarian "The animals are killed killed anyway. It doesn't matter if you eat the meat or not. Then it'll just go waste." But if everyone stopped eating meat, no animals would be slauthered for their meat any more.

No, you didn't get Sydney's point. He was saying that only a few people are as productive to our species, than the few he mentioned. He was saying that most of us aren't going to be so special, so we aren't as far from animals as we think, because our basic needs and goals in life are the same. The basic needs and desires for an animal are to find food and to reproduce.

Using suppliments and veggies high in protein like beans, then you could lead a perfectly nurished life.

Sorry, Pink. I had to correct you there. Syd would have ripped you apart on it...

You don't have to eat meat for the nutrition! Argh! Why the veggies in here have told you that you are lazy and ignorant in our meat-eating arguments before, is because you really are. You say that you eat meat because you have to, but that's just that you don't know any better. You could go and study the subject, before saying this argument over and over again. Because it isn't true! Let me make it simple for you: You do not have to eat meat to be healthy. You can get your proteins and iron and everything else your body needs without ever putting a piece of meat on you mouth. Veggies get proteins from different kinds of beans and peas and soy products. You are ignorant, because you don't know the real facts and you're lazy, because you don't go and find them out. And I sure am not skinny, so there's no point there... :fuzemb:


Oh, don't be stupid!

If it was a healt issue, I think eating meat would be acceptable. But are there really humans, who can't digest anything, which would replace meat in his diet?

There we go again. Here comes the "other animals eat meat, why couldn't we?" argument...:fuzblink: Because we know better. And besides, animals, who eat meat kill it themselves, which is, on my opinion, more acceptable than letting someone do the dirty work for you. It sure isn't pretty, though, when eg. a lion kills a gasell. The gasell can still be alive when the lion starts ripping it to pieces... But there isn't anything we can do about it. And there are animals, who just have to eat meat, or who wouldn't do so good without it. We can survive without meat, and eg. dogs could. I've been studying the subject, and I may turn my dog to one, but I really want to study it properly, so my dog won't lack anything in her diet, because I don't want to make her sick. Cats are also possible to turn into veggies, but it's much harder on them, than dogs.

Oo... and here comes the "you stupid people, who think animals can reason". I (and many other people on this board as well, or taht's what they've said in their posts) think that animals can think, feel, remember and feel pain. Most animals are intelligent and it's stupid to say they aren't. By intelligent we don't think they are as intelligent as humans, but they are thinking and feeling creatures with a mind of their own, not our toys or material for us, whom we can just use as we please. Of course we can't go and talk to them. But if we study their ways of communicating with their peers, we can learn to communicate with them. And what comes to monkeys; they can learn up to hundreads of words. Really learn. If a human says something, like "ball" they can go and get the ball, if they're taught to do so. But then again, is the human trying to communicate with the monkey or just toy with it?

I'll be the first to admit that my post was unreasonably harsh, but my intention was to alleviate the state of quiet boredom observed on the forums recently (although I believe every word I typed). I'm aware that people don't like to be told that they are wrong, especially when it comes to others questioning the moral soundness of where they derive pleasure. You're quite right that my post may offend the meat-eating philosophies of our members, but your veiled reference to my comment on religion in the Elvis and Jesus topic was unnecesary. I am offended by the consumption of meat by humans, as I am offended by rape and murder.Congratulations on questioning your omnivorous lifestyle. I try to avoid using words like morals (even though I already have once in my response), as they're too dependant on who you ask. To one person the eating of live babies may be morally acceptable, while to another it may be despicable.

I'm glad you agree that meat is not essential for survival, and that health is a major benefactor in a vegetarian diet. But, as my original post indicated, better health is incidental and should not be the primary reason for becoming a vegetarian. My argument is that selfishness (or ignorance) is why people eat meat. Overcoming this selfishness is beneficial to all concerned.

Yes, the meat industry is disgraceful. How do you define "humane killing"? Is it humane to kill your enemies on the condition that it is quick and painless? While I touched the topic of slaughter conditions, it was never a main part of my argument, but I must still disagree with you - the more barbaric the treatment of the animals, the greater the incentive to become vegetarian. However, killing is killing regardless of whether it is done painlessly or painfully.Are you denying that selfishness is the cause of meat consumption? Murder, rape and torture have all been a part of human behaviour for thousands of years, duration isn't justification for this behaviour. I never said Mr Random should be forced to stop eating meat. I merely pointed out that meat consumption serves no essential role in the human diet, deducing that selfishness is the motivation for meat consumption. Lives are needlessly sacrificed to satisfy a needless hunger.Other meat-eating organisms have excuses; obviously, they don't possess the capacity to understand the issue, or they're unable to properly digest plants. Yes, that does address the problem. We know that other animals are capable of a broad range of feelings. Have you ever seen a cat whose body has been mashed into the road while it remains fully conscious? Meowing in pain and confusion, its eyes locked with those of your own, asking for comfort. Anyone who owns a pet should be able to understand that the creature has thoughts, interests and emotions. On top of this, they have a limited grasp of empathy (although I'm sure they have more empathy than some meat-eating humans I've encountered). Like I said, part of the problem is ignorance. Many people simply don't understand the extent of being that animals occupy, seeing them as merely raw material to be exploited as they see fit.I am not changing other people's morals to suit my own, I'm pointing out that consuming meat is selfish. Is it also wrong of me to persuade a person who eats babies to stop, even though it is in accordance with his morals to eat babies? See, the morality argument doesn't work. Chaos would ensue if everyone were free to act on what they believe is morally sound. As I've said countless times, I'm not fiddling with anyone's morals, just pointing out the realities of their decisions.

Re: Vegetarianism
 

Sorry but I have to correct you on that one, they lead horrible lives but their is money in their deaths being painless, if they feel pain or get scared they release adrenaline and it makes the meat taste bad.

I am ignorant and don't deny it, greedy, probably, I won't turn vegitarian unless I truly believe in it because otherwise it would just be to go with the crowd and you won't convince me to care enough.

Re: Re: Vegetarianism
 

I can appreciate that you're offended, but keep in mind that I am grossly offended by your meat-eating habits.Sorry, but both of your reasons equate to selfishness. You're placing the satisfaction of the meat's taste above the fact that this animal unwillingly died for you. You don't care about the other being involved, only the pleasure you get out of eating it: Selfish. Laziness is aslmost synonymous with selfishness.

FAZ....YOUR SO STUPID! WHAT ELSE REASON WOULD THEIR BE TO EAT MEAT? THERE IS NO OTHER REASON? DON'T YOU DARE CALL ME IGNORANT AND LAZY. THE ONLY ONE WHO IS IGNORANT AND LAZY AROUND HERE IS YOU. WHY? BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORANT BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THE FACTS EITHER, AND LAZY ENOUGH TO KNOW THE REASONS WHY PEOPLE EAT MEAT AND YOU ARE START TO JUDGE PEOPLE! THEY PROBABALY CALLED YOU IGNORANT AND DUMB IN THE PAST ARGUMENTS. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH EATING MEAT UNLESS YOU DON'T ABUSE IT. LIKE IF YOU DON'T EXCERSIE AND KEEP IN SHAPE. SO DON'T BE DUMB AND TRY TO FORCE PEOPLE TO CHANGE THEIR DIETS. IF PEOPLE EAT THE MEAT FOR PLEASURE, LET THEM THAT'S THEIR CONCERN. Like SeaRex said, there are people who both kill the animal for game but eat it also. AND IF WE KNOW BETTER NOT TO EAT MEAT, THEN WE MUST NOT BE THE TYPE OF ANIMALS, quote on quote "Scientist" think we are then.

OKAY, NO ONE SAID THAT ANIMALS ARE STUPID. THEY CAN THINK. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LEARNING, REASONING, AND INSTICTS!

ALso, the lactose intolerate thing is an example because there are vegetarians who don't drink milk from a cow.

ALSO, YOU CAN GET ALL THE NUTRIENTS YOU CAN WITHOUT PUTTING VEGGIES IN YOU MOUTH ALSO! YOU CAN GO BOTH WAYS. YOU can reach that homestasis:flames: :flames: :flames:

Re: Re: Vegetarianism
 

Yes, you are. But one thing you said is true; if the animals feel pain or are scared, their meat will end up tasting bad. And that's exactly the way it is! Like Anja Eerikäinen, the long time defender of animals in Finland, who unfortunately passed away this year, said, quote, "People don't even know what good pork tastes like any more". The meat you claim to be good, could actually be alot better if the slaughtering would be done in another way and the animals would be threated better during their lives.

Most of the animals, which are raised up for our plaites are forced to live in too small crowed cages or stalls. Eg. chickens usually have the space of one A4 paper per head. They get frustrated with the little space, the other chickens and nothing to do. Then then can peck and hurt each other. Usually the greedy meat growers stuck into the truck as many pigs, cows, chickend, or whatever, because it is cheaper and you don't have to drive back and forth so many times while taking the animals to slaughter houses. The animals are put there side by side and over each other. Chickens often get their legs and wings broken during the trip. Then they can be left in the car for the night or in some cases for days (which, ofcourse, is illegal, but still common).

The actual slaughtering is usually done, like Syd said, by giving the animals electric shocks or slitting their throats. Chickens are often put on a conveyor belt of a kind, where they are hanging upside-down. Then they move towards a bucket of water, to which electricity lead to. The chicken is supposed to die to the shock, but often the bird is trying to get lose and its protesting leads to it missing the bucket, so it's still alive on the next phase, or it can hit the bucket partly and paralyze a wing or some other part.

I am not stupid, thank you. And there's no need to flame me. I'm trying to argue in peace here, not flame you in any way. I wasn't the one to first call you ignorant and lazy, it was some one else on the forums, but I agree with him. I do think I know a lot more facts, than you do. In what way am I ignorant or lazy in the subject of meat-eating/vegetarism? (I am lazy, yes, but that is off-topic in this argument) This is so typical arguing from your side. If someone calls you names, you call them back with the same names, although you have no support for your claims.

No, they didn't. They called you that. But I don't care what other people think about me. I'm comfortable enough with my own personality and beliefs. I don't care if people disagree with me, which is the usual.

I don't get this. Could you explain what you're saying in here?

It's also the animals' concern.

Yes, I know there are. Your point?

Good. I know there's a different. I said there is a difference! You just seem to think that I and other veggies on the board don't know that. We do.

Yes, they are called vegans. But your example was a bit absurd. If you were trying to say that there are people, who don't drink milk for other reasons, then okey, but you said:

Why would not drinking milk make you selfish?

I'm not sure about this, but it can be true, alright. It hasn't really got anything to do with the argument, though, because the point was that I believe that eating meat is wrong and the fact is that you don't have to eat meat. It doesn't move me at all, if you can survive by just eating meat, because I won't eat meat ever again, if it's up to me.

I will stop eating the flesh of other animals if every other animal does the same. Why is it wrong for me to eat meat when just about every advanced animal does the same thing? The wolf can eat the deer, I can't. Why? Why is it okay for every animal that "needs" to eat meat to partake of it but not me. I agree that most meat animals lead effin' brutal lifes. I would much rather kill the animals in the wild, and have all the chickens be free range chickens. But it will never happen. Sharks eat other sharks, insects eat other insects. Hell, primates our supposed relatives have been known to be cannabilistic. I eat meat. You wan to call me cruel selfish, whatever. Fine by me. But next time, picket the killer whale because it eats cod and the wolf pack because it eats wolves. Its a friggin double standard and I don't like it.
P.s. Sydney, I could look into the "soulful" eyes of a bull(not a cow) and slit its throat. And then I would bleed it white as snow. I may be Lutheran, but I eat kosher whenever I can!
P.P.S. Hold up Syd, you equate eating meat with murder and rape? WTF? So people should serve jail time for eating hamburgers. I know you think you have good points, but honestly. First you scandalize every meateater on the board and then you put them on the same level of criminality and evilness as serial killers and sexual offenders?

Re: Vegetarianism
 

The only reason why people continue to eat meat is because of selfishness, those meat-eaters who are not selfish may use the excuse of ignorance.

You've obviously never been held at gunpoint by a drunk Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders From Mars raving 'eat the sausage or the kitty gets it!'. :D

In fact, such people [vegetarians] have been known to have a lesser instance of high blood pressure, cancer and heart disease, etc. The benefits of a vegetarian diet are astounding.

Not to mention diarrhoea and farting.

There is also as much iron in a burger as there is an a bucket of Brussels sprouts. I love sprouts, but there's no way I could eat that many.

Most vegetarians, however, do not reject meat for the reasons of a healthier lifestyle. It is just an extra benefit packaged with a more important issue.

I'm too selfish too see it that way, unfortunately (I'm not trying to make out I'm proud of that or owt). If I go veggie, it'll be purely for the health benefits. As nasty as it may seem, I really do not give a stuff about animals. When I watch veterinary programs like Animal Hospital, when they show stray animals being rescued and rehabilitated, I find myself thinking 'just shoot it! Spend the taxpayers' money on schools and healthcare for humans!'. Although I am aware that there would be more money available if we didn't spend it on slaughtering animals.

However, countless cows would still be butchered for the leather industry, and 'the way we get milk is pretty dodgy', to use a phrase from Abigail.

Few people see how their slabs of plastic-wrapped steaks get to their dinner plate.

I do, they come from the freezer. ;) Sorry, couldn't resist it. It was screaming to be typed.

Few stop to even realise that the dripping piece of burnt flesh on their fork was actually a part of a living, breathing, blinking creature less than a week ago. It had a face, a mother and a brain that was capable of pain and thought. It's easier to see your meat as always looking like it did when you bought it.

I can remember when I was about six, and I discovered that sausages were made from pigs. I thought 'eew! No more sausags for me then, thanks'. I stopped caring about a week later, though, being six.
Don't know why I brought that up, actually... it's slightly amusing, I suppose.

Every meat-eating person in the western world is an accomplice to what happens in slaughterhouses.

Why doesn't that apply to the rest of the world?

Each of these persons only associate these animals with food.

I don't; I have a pet chook and she's lovely.

Any meat eater, I challenge you to kill your food before you consume it.

I quite happily catch and kill my own insects before eating them. The chook and I go hunting together.

Could you look into the big, soulful brown eyes of a cow and slit its throat?

I really don't think cows have soulful eyes. They are infuriatingly stupid.

I couldn't slit a cow's throat, though, becuase I'd hear it screaming. I could shoot it in the head though, because that's quick and painless if you do it right.

I could wring a bird's neck, though, as that's supposed to be pain-free.

There would be a greater sense of responsibility on the part of the consumer.

As Max said, if we did do it, we would be used to it, and it wouldn't be a prob.

How many of you will develop a vaccine for cancer? How many of you will be compared to Mozart, Einstein or Pasteur? Few humans will accomplish something that will change the world. Perhaps you will pump out a few babies, and they will be your life's greatest acheivements. It's nothing more than what any other in the animal kingdom can accomplish.

This just enrages me. So what if we don't advance science? Nearly every one of us plays an active role in helping the community and the human race as a whole, by having a career. This may help people directly, like charity volunteers, those in the medical professions, and the Samaritans. We may help people in a less obvious way, by providing products or services to make people's lives easier.

You can argue that there are other animals that live in colonies and help each other, like ants and meerkats, but ants do it because the queen ensure they do not think for themselves, and thus have no choice. Meerkats live in groups because a lone meerkat in the desert has little chance of survival, so they do it for selfish reasons. We do it willingly, and we have a choice. You can argue that we do it for the money, but even unemployed people are given enough money to live. Many people who become doctors say they did it because they want to help people; it such a gory and stressful job there's no way most people would do it for the money alone. Even though I'm not an animal fan I do admire vets for wanting to do their job. A lot of vets require more training than human doctors (because the need good knowledge of the health and anatomy of several species), and animals, especially wild ones, are oft beastly and uncooperative. It's great that there are people willing to do that. How many other animals go out of their way so much to help pther species?

Compassion for all living creatures...

Even headlice? :)

Pinky while I do side with you on Faz's 'don't be so stupid' comment, I think I should point out that you can't get all the nutrients you need 'without putting veggies in your mouth'... you do need vitamin C.

Sydney, I feel I must side with Max in that your post in that it is too harsh and aggessive. You shouldn't attack us so much just because we're different.
This topic was entirely unprovoked. If someone had posted a topic called 'vegetarians are pansies and eedjits' and this was your response, then I'd support you.

Stop trying to ram your beliefs down our throats. It is as bad as attacking someone's religious beliefs. You can't expect us to change the values and morals we were brought up with.

No one has called me ignorant or lazy in this forum. People have called YOU Ignorant and lazy. HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT YOU KNOW ALOT MORE FACTS THEN I DO? YOU DON'T KNOW ME. THAT'S WHY I CALLED YOU IGNORANT BECAUSE YOU ARE SOMETIMES. But I don't care because no one knows me personally in this forum. I am not insecure with myself and I don't care what people think about me here because they don't know me or anything.



I flamed you because your always assuming stuff and you don't know what you are talkign about. "Good. I know there's a different. I said there is a difference! You just seem to think that I and other veggies on the board don't know that. We do."-I was not saying that no one did

Your not going to have a peaceful argument if you are calling people ignorant, and lazy! If you think eating meat is wrong, okay. It's just as stupid to try to force someone to do something and to convince them not to do it. That's inhumane and cruel. I use to do that, but now I realize that it's cruel and your just as terrible and I've learned from my mistakes.
Just a word of mouth

Amen to that.

That's exactly how it is, up until 'not thinking about it'. I don't quite get whether you're refering to the entire process described above, or the actual slaughtered which I don't think about, but I do think about it. Perhaps not at the dinner table or when I'm actually eating the meat, but then I must admit to being selfish in this respect. But then, I don't really consider the diminishing oil supplies in the world when I'm typing at my plastic keyboard. My human mind can't cope with acting and thinking at the same time. But I do think about it a lot.

Like I said, rather fractionally before, I follow my morals, I let other people follow there's. I don't persuade other people to change their morals nor do I directly question other people's morals, but if I wanted I would persuade them to question their own morals. I wouldn't go up to a butcher and say 'what you're doing is wrong', but I might ask 'do you ever think what you're doing is wrong?'

And hypocritical, I have to admit, is not in my vocabulary. It's in my dictionary, but I can't really be bother to look up every word in the definition. You'll have to enlighten me. Sorry. I'm lazy, and therefore, by Sydney's definition, selfish.




Actually I did get his point, but I apparently took it too far. I recognised that he was saying we are no better than any other animal, plant, fungi, protoetist or monera in that we all wish our species to survive, and that this does not give us or any other species the right to overpower any other species. I just also found another point that was not intended. Oops.

Yes, this arguement is ridiculous. I tried to make that clear myself by saying

, but then

. Unfortunately, I think either Sydney or I got confused about the difference between 'consciousness' and 'conscience'. The first deals with what Sydney describes, and I definitely agree most species of animal have these attributes (emotion, thoughts, interests, quirks), but the later refers to morals, which we keep coming back to. That's how I've always used the words anyway.

Was it? Trouble is, we've somehow formed two separate topics here: Vegetarianism and Morals. I can't remember what your comment was, because once I'm in one post, memory of other posts' content fades. However, I'm pretty sure it was something to do with offending other religions by stating a direct 'that's not right' or 'that's impossible'. A 'you are wrong'. Which I'm worried this topic could develop into. Luckily, we've managed to steer far clear of that.

That's how I use the word. My morals allow me to do some things that other people couldn't do. Other people's morals, while I can't dispute them directly, may allow Mr Baby Eater to do something I question in myself. Then I'd have to go and persuade him to question his morals, while carefully avoiding trying to directly change them.

Not being a killer, I have insufficient experience of killing. Neither have I ever had the opportunity to try out lots of different deaths to search for one that fealt humane. However, there must certainly be a technique for 'humane killing'.

Scenario: Puss has feline leukemia. Either she is put down or she will suffer greatly in her old age. Obviously the humane thing to do is to kill her. And obviously slitting her throat and letting her bleed to death is not a humane method of being humane. What we do (or what happened, because Puss really did have to be put down because she had feline leukemia) is the vet injected her with something, and she supposedly died peacefully. Before anyone else complains about it, I am aware that there is one major flaw in this scenario when put to the test in that Puss wouldn't have otherwise gone on to live a nice and pleasant life, while a cattle most probably would. I'm not really sure what point I'm trying to make here, you'll have to interpret it on your own.

No, I wasn't really denying that, but at the time I didn't really understand it. Reading through the topic since my last post has let me see what you mean though, and I must agree, meat-eating can be defined as selfish. But do you think fox-hunting is selfish?

Because the country-folk over here use the arguement 'it's tradition' to justify this 'sport'. I'm not wanting to add another topic to this discussion, but it is tradition for humans to eat meat, after all. Does 'it's tradition' make it alright? I don't think so, I disagree with fox-hunting, but all I want to know is whether you think it's selfish.

Agreed. That's why we have laws. The most universally-held morals are made officially 'right and wrong' by the governments so that as few people as possible can be offended by other people acting on their own morals. However, sometimes the law does become a little more controversial on the vegetarianism side of things. In Britain it's illegal to eat cheval. At first I couldn't see why why, but of course it's because horses are pets. And yet we eat rabbits, and the Chinese or Japanese (I forget who) eat cats. But then you apply 'it's an inteligent animal' and you end up more confused than ever, because pigs have displayed greater mental abilities than horses, and we eat them all the time. Or meat-eaters do, anyway.

While it is against my own morals to alter other people's morals, I do personally think the world would be a lot better if everyone tried to avoid offending other people. That's never going to happen, meat-eating and vegetarianism display that perfectly. But baby-eating isn't a common practice around here, as far as I know, and so at least Norwichians have got one less thing to be disgusted by. And one less thing to be disgusted by is a godsend.

You, Sydney (I'm using you as an example, although generally I try to avoid using people), are disgusted by meat-eating. Some meat-eaters doubtlessly find vegetarianism disgusting. That's where the trouble is, but it's also why we don't have any laws to control them. Similarly that's why it's been so difficult to put a ban on fox-hunting over here, because it will be impossible to avoid disgusting many people. However, it doesn't lead to interesting discussion, which I'm not sure really compensates for all the disgustedness.

There's probably a whole load of stuff I haven't touched upon which I'd like to, but for interests of time and in trying to keep my post as short as possible (a bad attempt), I'm stopping here. No doubt about sixteen thousand people have posted while I was typing.

It is? Damn! So I committed two crimes when I bumped off Shergar...

*Applause* THANKS Stat! :D That's what I was trying to say about animals! Faz turned it all around and misunderstood it.

*Sigh* You haven't read through the entire topic, have you? Your questions have been answered above. At least you tolerate the label of being selfish, because that's what you are.Congratulations.Nowhere did I equate meat-eaters with people who murder and rape, I just used murder and rape as examples of other activities I don't want to take part in. And I do have good points, none of which have been successfully rebutted so far. I don't expect you to like my point of view.

Brussel sprouts are relatively low in iron compared to other available vegetables.So you're not arguing with me? You agree that you are selfish.You're giving people too much credit. Most of us aren't rosy-cheeked bearers of compassion and good-will, such as you, who want money to go to towards the encouragement of a species who overpopulate the earth and cause havoc as opposed to alleviating the suffering of injured animals.And you shouldn't attack animals just because they're tasty.As I said, I posted this topic mainly to bring some life back to the forums. It seems to have worked.I'm not ramming my beliefs down your throats. I'm merely pointing out the realities of your decisions, and for the most part you all have been agreeing with me, despite insisting that you'll continue eating meat. You summed it up best when you said "I'm too selfish".

"Philosophy on meant-eating"? You make it sound like these people made a moral and ethical decision that meat-eating was the best path for them...

I find the implication that a vegetarian diet is not a "full" diet deeply offensive. Okay, so I don't really, but if I did, that would be a far less ridiculous proposition that the idea that people eat meat for philosophical reasons...

Okay, I know that this argument will be used several times in this topic, so I'll address it at the bottom, in my summary.

That is a very twisted view of Karma... Is murder not wrong when it is committed by someone who does not believe it is wrong? (I know, I know, extreme example and all that. At least I didn't use Hitler as an example... :p)

If somebody had no choice but to eat meat, then of course they should eat it. However, I have never met anybody who has no choice, and neither (I expect) have you. Being skinny is not a life-threatening condition, and there are no (and I repeat NO) nutrients that can only be obtained from Meat. As for the allergy issue, strawberries, bananas and squash do not form a very large part of my diet, and it is very unlikely that a person might be allergic to enough vegetables to make a vegetarian diet untenable (again, if somebody was in this situation, then it would be a different issue, but again you are not, I am not, and nobody I have ever met is).

You've been doing so well recently, Pinky, but I guess you just had to resort to your old ways - if you can't win by reason, win by volume...

Jenni, don't try to reason with Pinky. I've tried. It's possible, but really not worth the hassle...

Because, like tigers and wolves, people in third world countries don't have access to the same alternatives in their diet that we do.

I have to say that I have never met anyone who says this. I would like to, though, just to hear their reasons...

Okay, let me attempt to sum up the reasons for eating meat (for I believe the burden of justification lies with the meat-eater, just as it lies with the believer, the killer, the scientist, etc.):

1. It tastes nice.
Well, I can hardly rebut that, as it is purely a matter of personal taste. I personally find most meats disgusting; the only meats I used to like when I ate them (if I remember correctly) were pork, chicken, and fish. However, I can point out the extreme selfishness of that statement. I won't bother, though, as most of you seem completely aware of that, and don't seem to care. I despair sometimes...

2. I need it to live.
Bullshit. Unless there are extreme circumstances, humans can get by fine without the charred flesh of their fellow beings...

3. Humans have always eaten meat.
Humans have always killed each other, too. Doesn't make it right.

4. Other animals eat meat, so why can't I?
Lions, Foxes, and most other carnivores are UNABLE to survive on a vegetarian diet. Their teeth and digestive systems are not set up to digest it, and you won't find that many quorn burgers out in the woods... We, on the other hand, are FULLY CAPABLE of surviving on a meat-free diet. That is why I do not condemn other carnivores for their diet: They have no choice...

And apart from anything else, why does the fact that something is done by others make it right? Does the fact that Hitler (sorry, had to come up somewhere) killed 6 million people mean that it would be perfectly alright for you to do so?

5. SHUT UP SHUT UP YOUR STUPID AND IGNORANT AND YOU DON'T KNOW ME AND YOUR NOT MAKING ANY SENSE!
You are clearly Pinky. Go away.

There. The top 5 anti-veggie arguments neatly summed-up and rebutted. If any of you meat-eaters out there eat meat for any reasons not listed here, please tell me them, so I can rebut those as well. If you have no other reasons, then my work here is done.

EDIT:

Just thought of a couple more things to add:

http://www.oddworldforums.net/forums...ght=Vegetarian

http://www.oddworldforums.net/forums...ght=Vegetarian

Links to the old Meat arguments. So we don't end up repeating ourselves...

I'd also like to say that, despite how I may act here, I am not a Militant Vegetarian. I only act that way when confronted with Militant Carnivores... :D

Oh, and also an apology to Max. I would be perfectly happy to have a civilised conversation with you about the subject, but unfortunately I am unable to resist the temptation to wipe the floor with some of the morons in here (who shall remain nameless. Let us refer to them simply as "Miss P" and "Mr S"...). Maybe some other time...

Sorry to tell you, man, but buying products with meat in them is contributing to the death of those animals, which is just as bad as doing it yourself. The only difference from doing it yourself is, you have taken yourself away from the situation directly, but you still support it indirectly.

Re: Re: Vegetarianism
 

How about (a)pathetic? That word seems more fitting.

I can see your point, and I understand how by supporting the slaughter of animals I am...well, supporting the killing of animals. However, I support the idea of having a police force, but that doesn't mean I want to enforce the law upon people. I also use paper to write on, doesn't mean I enjoy felling trees. I'm as much a killer as I am a police officer and a lumberjack, no matter how much I use and encourage* the industry.

*That's not direct encouragement, obviously, I don't go around shouting "Slaughter animals in cruel ways".

I have been told I have a very twisted soul. :p

And as for 'is it wrong', then it depends who you ask. Most people you ask would say 'yes, murder is wrong'. Some people might be able to sympathise with the murderer if they knew the full story, but very few people think murder is alright. Which is why it is illegal (I hope).

I'm honoured. Thank you very much.

in third world countries people are much less likely to have meat on hand than vegtables and work very hard to get meat so that makes no sense.

off topic-sydney, you'd make an excellent politician

on topic-err, umm *runs to corner fearing the wrath of vegitarians and meat eaters alike* j/k

Sweet, mother of God, it feels so good to have a debate and get worked up over something!
Why I won't stop eating meat
1: It tastes way too good!
2: The animals are dead anyway, why throw away the carcass?
3: Vegetarian people should worry about their own eating habits and stop being the food police to everyone.They act like imposing, arrogant pricks, and quite frankly, I don't like it.
4 Puts too many people out of work.
5:Who's gonna stop me!I don't get on guilt trips very easily, and it is impossible to persuade me to cry my heart out over the plight of turkeys
6: It seems to me that all the vegetarians care about are the cute animals. For instance dolphin safe tuna. I would rather eat tuna free dolphin or a combination of the two.
When it comes to people refraining from eating meat, I have no bones to pick with any of them. What I do Hate however, is when they try to
"enlighten" you. Back off, bub. If you think being a veghead is cool and helpful and all that happy horeshit, fine, be a veghead, be my guest. But don't go off telling me that liking to eat baby back ribs is a crime

I have (since I did an animal rights report thingy) earlier this year, tried to eat less meat. I have paticularly tried to stop eating chicken, its not even that good. I rarely eat beef, only when my mom forces a Big Mac in front of me*vomit*. I am trying (at least) to find an alternative for subs. I can't live off pasta salad and mac & cheese forever... Call me greedy of selfish or whatever, at least I'm making an attempt to stop.

So what exactly do you want the police to do? I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinely don't get how you can support the idea of a police force without supporting the idea of law enforcement...

Yes, and they're certainly the best nourished people in the world, aren't they? My point is that they do not have access to a wide variety of foods, and meat is the only real source of protein for them (unlike us).

I think I covered that one. If you don't have anything new to say, don't say anything.
You really haven't a clue how the meat industry works, do you? Do you think you're eating roadkill sausages or something?
We do. That's why we're vegetarian.If you want me to stop being a Militant Vegetarian, then you should stop being such a Militant Carnivore...
Ending the Death Penalty put a lot of executioners out of work. I still say that was the time when we truly became Civilised...
The Veggie Police. We come in the middle of the night and take you while you sleep. We then not only turn you into burgers, but to add insult to injury, we serve you in Macdonalds... :p
I don't know about you, but I don't find cows, chickens, fish, or indeed any meat animal (with the possible exception of sheep) especially cute. I still don't eat them.
Listen, you moron, we will stop forcing our opinions on you the moment you stop forcing your opinions on us. In what way do you think that referring to our beliefs as "happy horseshit" and calling us arrogant pricks is a neutral way to behave?

What a coicidence...I read an article on a similar subject today at work. (take a look...it only really applies to vegans though (those that shun any animal products))

I usually avoid this kind of topic...mainly because I am terrible at debates. (and probably by the time I finish typing this there will be a lot of new replies ahead of this one) But I will at least give my postion on it.

I admit I am a meat eater...in fact I am more carnivorous then omnvirous in a way. Why? I dislike fruits and veggies...I can count on my two hands how many fruits and veggies I actually like. Yes..I do eat those when I come across them...for instance...black eyed beans(or peas...depends...) I love those! Sweet peas to...oh and potatoes! *licks jaws*
My point is...is that I don't like enough plant matter to go vegitratian. To 'force' me to do so would be torture...and that is what it seems to be you are trying to do Syd with this topic. Such hostility turns me off as much as peeps trying to force their religion on me.
Now...that said...I respect you for your beliefs...and I am not about to even try to convice you otherwise, unlike what you seem to be doingcolor. You may not like my eating habits, but you have NO right to try to force YOUR beliefs of the subject down my throat! Do you see me trying to force MY beliefs down YOUR throat!? NO!

Spider: Kia Kia! Calm down!

*pants* Sorry...*ahem*
Yes you may call me selfish for my meat eating habits...well that is your opinion. You may find those that eat meat disgusting...well that is your belief...not mine.
You say we have a choice not to eat meat. Well we have that same power of choice not to do other things as well. Like for instance:

"I think using medicine is wrong to an extent. It makes us live far longer then we would out in the wild, thus causing overpopulation, thus further straining our precious planets resources. I avoid using medicine whenever possible, even pain killers."

Yes...I believe we as humans need to all go back to our roots and live as our anciestors did...but do you see me forcing that on anyone? No.

As for your question Syd...yes I would be able to kill my own food. Only thing is that I wouldn't 'slit its throat', as that would cause too much distress. I would kill it quickly, painlessly and without it realising it if at all possible. Far better not to see death coming at you IMO.

*sits down, opens a packet of beef jerky and starts to eat*

Spider: *immediately at her ankles, looking up at her with begging eyes*

Oh dear gods I forgot about this....*sighs and tosses him a piece*

Spider: *munchies happily*