Religion of Peace Strikes Again in MY home country!

[Venks]

The god of Islam is the same as Christianity and Judaism, saying their god is fictional would mean that you deny the existence of God.
I didn't realize you were a fellow Atheist! Put it there! (Sarcasm everywhere)

[Patrick Vykkers]

http://www.letusreason.org/Islam20.htm
A fundie source, but in this case it sources from reliable scripture.

Also, YHVH is not the only deity you can worship. You can also worship Ra, Anubis, Thor, Set, Satan, Baal, Belial, Baphomet, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the deist God.

[Kimon]

You deny the most violent religion in the world has inspired the vast majority of international terrorists, who claim it as their faith and practice it consistenly in accordance with tradition and history?

That doesn't mean the religion is bad. That means people pervert it.

[Bullet Magnet]

Patrick, Remember the Troubles in the latter half of the Twentieth Century? If I were to say now that all Irish people, and by extension, all those who share their Catholic Christian faith, are therefore violent monsters who want to kill all British people, what would you call me? "Moronic" comes to mind. "Uninformed". "One-sided". "Bigoted". "Foolish". "Hateful". "Racist". "Deranged". These are the more polite of them. Of course there is more than one side to the Troubles, and crimes were committed by both sides.

Now, let's look at another example. A people to whom defeat was synonymous with death, surrender was not an option and who ruthlessly marched across the globe as far as they could reach in their fanatical devotion to their "infallible" leader.

Some of these people had left their home country and settled in the United States of America, living there for years. But when their relatives invaded neighbouring countries and attacked US soil, these peaceful American citizens were rounded up and sent into camps, their homes sold and rights forgotten. I'm sure you'll agree with the then US government that this was clearly the correct course of action to contain these descendants of an evidently dangerous nation and war philosophy, but personally I would have given these sons and daughters of late-Feudal Japan the benefit of the doubt.

You, sir, repeat the mistakes of the past. But it's okay! these are a different people, different time! It's okay that you make these age-old errors again, because they aren't black, Japanese, Jewish, Native American, Indian, Incan, Aztec or other previously oppressed race, nationality or faith. You have chosen a new target for a new time, and you have the perfect excuse. As we all know, the actions of the few reflect the intent of them all.

So go ahead, Patrick, vent your pent-up hate. We could all stand more of it all over our forums, we just can't get enough of it. If they can hate us irrationally, we are perfectly within our rights to do the same and remain the bigger man, right? After all, two wrongs squared divided by the cube root of ignorance make a right. Don't they? I was never any good at mathbigotry.

[Mutual Friend]

I'm actually glad you've started this thread, because I was going to start an all-round ISLAM thread, with that title, simply for your benefit, Pat.

Now, I'm not as foolish as you may think. I am not a massive fan of Islam, in the sense that it is, in comparison to all other main religions, an aggressive one, quite literally. The tone of Islam is quite, quite different to, for instance, Christianity, far more incisive, far less passive. It is a religion designed to go out there and get you. There's a reason they're called Islamic Fundamentalists - they follow the fundamentals of their religion, and take them at face value. And see what you get: burning buildings, dead people, oppression.

This is a fact. Pat is right in saying this, but as most of us has realised, he's also severely deluded if he thinks that this is how Islam works in the mundane, humdrum lives of Western Muslims. Of course, there will always be the few who do become 'enlisted' to the fundamentalist cause, but the vast majority are just humble folk, living out their lives as we would.

This is a fact. An out-and-out hatred of Islam ignores how it functions here, in our society, and as such can only be treated as bigoted idiocy.

And I've just made the only necessary post of this thread.

[Patrick Vykkers]

Mutual Friend, you are aware that you as a bisexual under Islam would receive unimaginably severe punishment? And that this punishment is actively carried out in Islamic countries, such as the hanging of gay teenagers?

*SOAPBOX ALERT*
Are any of you, liberals, conservatives, or my fellow libertarians, aware of what Islam poses to all of your ideal societies? Islam treats women like dirt (contrary to revisionist BBPC bullshit), opposes freedom of speech, and approves of pedophilia. Islam opposess Judaism and Christianity, making them live under second class states, organizes wild prostitution, and bans alcohol. Islam would kill Larry Flynt, execute Penn & Teller, and killed Pim Fortuyn.

Islam is the enemy. Islam is the new Naziism, Islam must be destroyed.

Bullet Magnet, there are absolutely no words as to what I think of your analogy, just how goddamn STUPID a comparison that is. You would compare Irish fighters for land who rarely attacked civilians to a mass murdering fundamentalist pedophilic child murdering civilian killing Jew hating homophobic intolerant cult?

GUESS WHAT. TERRORISTS KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE ON 9/11. TERRORISTS KILLED INNOCENT CHILDREN IN BESLAN. TERRORISTS KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE ON 7/7. TERRORISTS KILL INNOCENT ISRAELI WOMEN AND CHILDREN EVERY DAY! TERRORISTS USE 2 YEAR OLDS AS SUICIDE BOMBERS, TEACH THEIR CHILDREN TO HATE. GOT THAT?

Israel and the US do not aim to kill children. The WW2 bombers did not aim to kill children. The IRA did not aim to kill children. The Islamic monsters did, and crossed a boundary of virtually every culture.

Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.

Where do you get this "a few Muslims" anyway? You treat it like some kind of established fact, when you haven't provided jack in evidence for it.

[Mutual Friend]

Mutual Friend, you are aware that you as a bisexual under Islam would receive unimaginably severe punishment?

I'm not bisexual. I'm thoroughly gay. But, yeah, your point still stands, and I'm well aware that Islam is, at its root, an oppressive, 'evil' (you know what I mean) religion. As I said!

Are any of you, liberals, conservatives, or my fellow libertarians, aware of what Islam poses to all of your ideal societies?

Libertarian? Fuck. Right. Off.

Anyway, you still haven't addressed what I've actually said. I think you'll find we're very probably in agreement on this issue - only you're talking about it from one side of it, ignoring the other.

Where do you get this "a few Muslims" anyway? You treat it like some kind of established fact, when you haven't provided jack in evidence for it.

I get it from common sense and personal experience. You give me evidence that the Muslims of Britain are secretly spreading their black tendrils through society, waiting for their moment to obliterate our values and freedoms. And I don't mean how we accept Islam in this country, I mean the proper fundamentalist-subscribers.

[Nate]

PV: The main issue people seem to be having is you ascribing qualities to an entire religion when anyone who has actually met a moderate Muslim person knows that that is just not true. I'm speaking here as a Jew who has met several Turkish Muslim people through various interfaith gatherings.

MF: I think I love you.

[Patrick Vykkers]

People don't make the religion. There could be nice Satanists, nice Scientologists. That doesn't change the fact the religion is evil.

Ever heard of taqiyya? http://jihadwatch.org/archives/004628.php

What's wrong with libertarians? We just don't like government interference, be it in the lives of businessmen or gay folks.

Muslims are not all, fully bad. Islam is evil. There are good Muslims, but they are not following their faith. If you disagree, ask any Imam or Ayatollah. They are people infected with a terrible, evil disease called Islam.

[Zozo the Zrilufet]

Aaaaaand Patrick is racist, how confusing.

[Hobo]

Islam is not a race. Name calling may be fine in the sandpit , but it's not in grown up speak.

Stupid=You. See, I can play kindy games too.

Fail = You for rising up to my comments, which incidentally are correct, every time i post them.

[Patrick Vykkers]

Aaaaaand Patrick is racist, how confusing.

It is impossible to be racist against something which is not a race. Religions aren't races, Islam is not a race.

Hobo, you suck. Hard.

[Zozo the Zrilufet]

It is impossible to be racist against something which is not a race. Religions aren't races, Islam is not a race.

Hobo, you suck. Hard.

Well sooooorrryyy, but I use the word racist since religism probably isn't even a word.

[Mutual Friend]

People don't make the religion. There could be nice Satanists, nice Scientologists. That doesn't change the fact the religion is evil.

On the contrary, all religion has is people, and is only as good and as bad as its believers.

Yes, fundamentalist Islam is 'evil' (you know what I mean). But to say that any Muslim who, for instance, believes in the rights of women is somehow perverting the nature of Islam, and is therefore, effectively, irrelevant to the discussion is ridiculous. You KNOW any religion has many different interpretations, persuasions, and levels of importance dealt to certain institutions. Come on, Pat, you just know this. You're making this far too simple a world. You just come across as a ranting fanatic.

[Hobo]

Well sooooorrryyy, but I use the word racist since religism probably isn't even a word.

This is a true post.

It's not a matter of discrimination, it's a matter of the English fucking language PV.

[Leto]

I side with Hobo.

PV, urgayol.

[used:)]

This is pointless. It's now just a reason for Patty to get off on belittling Islam.

Do you actually know any Muslims, Pattrick?

[Patrick Vykkers]

You Hobo are idiotic and are too cowardly to debate.. so you result to name calling; a bit like this

[Leto]

Wow, totally didn't see one of them comments coming.

[Mutual Friend]

You Hobo are idiotic and are too cowardly to debate.. so you result to name calling...

He's just giving you the reply you deserve, frankly. And where's your debate, exactly? This very instance you ignored the more reasoned post (that was mine, by the way) in favour of posting another of your hiiiiiigh-larious picto-insults.

[Fortesque13]

Come on! This is turning into a flame-fest! It's like having a friggin manhunt in UT with flamethrowers and PV is the hunted!
PV:Your bratty anti-comments to justify your posts don't work and make you look like matthew9r. Honestly!

[Mutual Friend]

Don't moan about something turning into a bitchfest then ADD TO IT, bozo.

[Fortesque13]

Why would I add to a bitchfest and get an infraction along with everyone else?

To keep slightly ontopic, I think it's not the matter of religion, it's the matter of people.

[Patrick Vykkers]

On the contrary, all religion has is people, and is only as good and as bad as its believers.

Yes, fundamentalist Islam is 'evil' (you know what I mean). But to say that any Muslim who, for instance, believes in the rights of women is somehow perverting the nature of Islam, and is therefore, effectively, irrelevant to the discussion is ridiculous. You KNOW any religion has many different interpretations, persuasions, and levels of importance dealt to certain institutions. Come on, Pat, you just know this. You're making this far too simple a world. You just come across as a ranting fanatic.

Drop the "you know what I mean" act. Do you think I don't know the definition of evil? I damn well know that. I know that every school of Islamic jurispredence holds to the value of literal physical Jihad, even the Sufis. I know that the apostate MINOs have no metaphysical or physical leg to stand on. I know that the people who made Islam, who made Allah, who made Muhammad a prophet, were scum of the earth, raiders, pedophiles, rapists, misogynists, vile, evil people.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013367.php
http://www.jihadwatch.com/dhimmiwatc...ves/001462.php
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=15459
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/quran_teaches.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles.../flatearth.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/WWMD.htm
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/155987.php

Also, Hobo has shown zero ability to debate beyond narcissism, bad logic, and ad hominem. Thus, I'm blasting him for his stupidity.

[Mutual Friend]

Drop the "you know what I mean" act. Do you think I don't know the definition of evil? I damn well know that. I know that every school of Islamic jurispredence holds to the value of literal physical Jihad, even the Sufis. I know that the apostate MINOs have no metaphysical or physical leg to stand on. I know that the people who made Islam, who made Allah, who made Muhammad a prophet, were scum of the earth, raiders, pedophiles, rapists, misogynists, vile, evil people.

...And here's the point I simply stop bothering. You haven't addressed my points, you've gone purely off into your la-la land of pseudo-intellectual bollocks. And the point of the "(you know what I mean)" is to indicate my discomfort in using the term, not as a reflection upon anyone else.

[used:)]

Come on! This is turning into a flame-fest! It's like having a friggin manhunt in UT with flamethrowers and PV is the hunted!
PV:Your bratty anti-comments to justify your posts don't work and make you look like matthew9r. Honestly!

Shut the fuck up, fat man. This isn't your business.

And to the contrary, this is far from a flaming thing (aside from Hobo). Although the tone of PV's and MF's posts is rather aggressive, they are still maintaining a perfectly fine debate.

And Patrick, for the third time, have. You. Ever. Met any actual Muslims once in your life?

[Patrick Vykkers]

I think the experiences of myself are not sufficient enough to count as significant evidence. Let's avoid the whole "do you know Muslims" schtick and stick to the big picture.

http://www.memri.org/
Lovely, peaceful Muslims there.
http://www.memritv.org/
More too.

Can't you feel the looove? The lovely racism, anti semitism, Judeophobia, Christophobia, Bush Derangement Syndrome, Ameriphobia, and FellowMuslimophobia.

[used:)]

I think the experiences of myself are not sufficient enough to count as significant evidence. Let's avoid the whole "do you know Muslims" schtick and stick to the big picture.

Which translates to "If I answer your question truthfully, people will REALLY start to doubt my reason, so I'm shoving it to the side."

Your life experiences have everything to do with this. You can post as many fucking weblinks and unfunny pictures as you want, but there is no substitute for life experience. You call thes people barbaric, ruthless, diluded, and pure evil, but tell me, for the sake of satisfying my own arrogant, buddha-loving curiosities, have you ever experienced a personal, physical encounter with these people? Have you so much as said "good morning" to one while walking down the street? The more you push it off, the more I think your knowledge of them is all based on news reports and hate websites. As Buddha once said, "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

[Patrick Vykkers]

I can make up stories. I, and the people I source, can't make up news. They can't make up what's shown on the sources, and their sources corroborate. To quote Gil Grissom from the show CSI: The evidence never lies.

I have read the Qur'an.I HAVE NEVER DIRECTLY ENCOUNTERED A MUSLIM. MY CRITICISM IS WITH ISLAM, NOT MUSLIMS. I MAINTAIN A HEALTHY SKEPTICISM OF THE "TINY MINORITY OF EXTREMISTS" and "VAST MAJORITY OF MODERATE MUSLIMS" PROPAGANDA. I have seen what happens on Muslim websites, what happens in areas the mass media doesn't show. I have seen significant and irrefutable evidence the Qur'an is violent, evidence from the Haditha that Muhammad was a pedophile, evidence from countless thousands of news reports, most from liberal or centrist newspapers, some even from Islamic newspapers, that Islam bears the most fruits of violence I have ever seen.

I have seen death cultists shrieking and murdering because the pope calls a spade a spade. I have seen people murdered and attempted to be murdered. Islam is as offensive to my values as Satanism and child rape. Islam is incompatible with the values of the best damn civilization in the world, the West. Islam is incompatible with human rights, democracy, and freedom. Islam must coerce in order to survive, like an evil disease, a virus of the mind. Christianity does not coerce people in today's world. Christianity's core texts are not anymore than a third as violent as the Qur'an. Christianity's founder was a Jewish eschatologist proclaiming a message of peace and that he was God. At worst, he was a raving, deluded nut. At best, he was God. Or more accurately, he either was a ravng deluded nut, or God.

Nice try with the "hate website" canard. They source largely from mainstream and Muslim sources, and I have a quote right here from Khomeini, one of the most respected and high ranking people in Islam (albeit deceased), that pretty much nails it;
“Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Art...e.asp?ID=15983

[Incognito]

I'm sorry to butt in here, but since when has Khomeni been an authentic source on what Islaam is or isn't? This is the man that was disgraced by God in his own funeral procession.

You say you've read the Qur'aan and hadith; is that the whole Quran page to page, verses by verse from Chapter 1 to Chapter 114? Or selective verses you've read on faithfreedom.org?

Okay yes the Qur'aan does urge the belivers to fight; Only after they had been persecuted, oppressed and driven out of their homes. The early muslims had to flee their homes in Makkah and move to the city of Yathrib.

And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in God. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower. (Al-Qur'aan 8:61)

Say: "O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) submit (to God's Will). (Al-Qur'aan 3:64)

If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient. (Al-Qur'aan 16:126)

And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" (Al-Qur'aan 4:75)

These few verses above show the true nature of warfare or jihad in Islaam; one which is employed only to defend those who are oppressed and only pursued until peace is found.

I could go on and give you hundreds of more verses, but I'm going to leave it at that.

The core message of the Qur'aan is not Jihad; but rather a message to humanity to return back to the WORSHIP of the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus, alone and without partners. Islaam at its core stresses the monotheistic nature of God who has no equal, is not begot and does not beget.

Islaam is the attainment of true inner peace by submitting alone to the God of Noah and his children.

It is not a cult.

It is the essence of monotheism preached by all of the prophets of God.

And it is your choice to take it or leave it - that is the free-will given to you by God.