Sex Free Passports

[Sekto Springs]

Because there is no scientific way to become more like an animal, but transgender people can become only a few hairs short of their sex of choice with the proper changes physically and hormonally.

[Wings of Fire]

How is it not comparable? In both instances someone identifies as something they're not.

Who are you to say what they are and what they are not?

Gender identity in psychology is a very very complex and intricate topic. It's not so simple as simply sexual assignment.

Take an obvious example: A transvestite. They like wearing women's clothes obviously, but they must sexually identify as being a man otherwise they'd have no penis. What about a stay at home father who does it out of want rather than necessity?

I don't identify with being a male at all. Not in the slightest. I don't like anything that is typically considered manly, I don't get on well with other men and I love female company and have interests and desires considered feminine. I'm not sure that I would go as far to say I identify as being female (Though I have three good friends who would) and I certainly don't care enough to have my passport changed, but I'm certainly hesistant to identify at all as male.

Also on a lighter note I'd like to wear female clothing.

Think on that.

And try not to retch.

EDIT: On a serious note I had my very close transgender friend read through this topic and he said I should make mention that gender roles are entirely a social construct. He's a postgraduate student studying sociology with an academic and vested interest in gender roles.

Also I would totally have mentioned that sooner if I wasn't horrifically ill and drowsy from these cold tablets.

Bleh

[moxco]

I don't identify with being a male at all. Not in the slightest. I don't like anything that is typically considered manly, I don't get on well with other men and I love female company and have interests and desires considered feminine. I'm not sure that I would go as far to say I identify as being female (Though I have three good friends who would) and I certainly don't care enough to have my passport changed, but I'm certainly hesistant to identify at all as male.

You have testicles? You produce sperm? Then you are a male.

On a serious note I had my very close transgender friend read through this topic and he said I should make mention that gender roles are entirely a social construct.

The only reason one could feel male or female is because society has defined what it is to be a male or a female

Exactly. If gender roles are entirely social construct than your friend only identifies as a male because she exhibits characteristics deemed by society to be masculine.

Who are you to say what they are and what they are not?

One's sex is a biologically determined. It has nothing to do with societies perception of their interests.

[Wings of Fire]

I'm pretty sire I made clear the DISTINCTION between SEXUAL and GENDER identification in my previous post.

You're sort of ignoring the foundational point.

Having testicles makes you biologically male. Not psychologically male.

[moxco]

No I didn't.

The only reason one could feel male or female is because society has defined what it is to be a male or a female

Exactly. If gender roles are entirely social construct than your friend only identifies as a male because she exhibits characteristics deemed by society to be masculine.

Psychologically people are themselves. They may have some tendencies that are commonly associated with the opposite sex but it doesn't make of thus sex.

[Havoc]

I'm pretty sire I made clear the DISTINCTION between SEXUAL and GENDER identification in my previous post.

You're sort of ignoring the foundational point.

Having testicles makes you biologically male. Not psychologically male.

So which one should be printed on official documents then? The one you born with, or the one you're perceived as by society? Because the last one opens up a gigantic can of worms for every other identity field on official documents.

Should a woman who makes it a habit of lying about her age, had plastic surgery, and is thus perceived as being much younger than she really is, get to change the birth year in her passport? No. She was born in that year, regardless of how old she looks now. Just like a transgender was born a man/woman and will remain such unless they undergo surgery to remove the very features that defines a man/woman. Until that time there is no reason to, for the sake of official documents and establishing identity, change (or leave empty) the gender title on a passport because nothing has in fact changed.

For the sake of clarity, a simple (TG) for TransGender (or something) behind the sex should clear up any issue there is with this. It makes it clear to any customs official that the person standing infront of them is officially a man but doesn't consider themselves to be a man and thus looks like a woman. Problem solved.

[Wil]

There are not two sexes, and there are not solid barrier between any sex. That the vast majority of people fall squarely in two sets is irrelevant. Anything that recognizes this is to the betterment of everyone.

[JennyGenesis]

This is a response to Moxco, there's just too damn much to quote to put here.

Anyway

So if a man went through the trouble of becoming a woman to the extent that he even got surgery, does that make him a man just because he lacks ovaries etc...

If a heterosexual man saw this person and identified this person as a woman and even felt a sexual attraction to that person before knowing what they were, doesen't that add up to being a woman aswell?

If they knew that the person was originally a man then it might put some people off, but the point is, that heterosexual man would have identified that person as a woman which is I suppose is what all trans people want.

[Nate]

It's a minor point on top of what others have said, but a difference between furries and trans people is that a furry does not transition towards being a fox, living the fox lifestyle, walking on four legs and catching rabbits to eat. A trans person may well transition to the appropriate sex completely, behave and think like their adopted sex and be accepted by society as such.




My initial thought on reading the title of this thread was to think that it was strange to make a major change to support such a tiny section of the population. But when I thought about it for a minute, I could not think of even one reason why sex needs to be listed on the passport. So, assuming that all the security agencies are fine with it, I support this plan.

[Wings of Fire]

No I didn't.





Psychologically people are themselves. They may have some tendencies that are commonly associated with the opposite sex but it doesn't make of thus sex.

BUT IT MAKES THEM THAT GENDER IF THEY THEMSELF IDENTIFY WITH IT

OH DEAR GOD MAN

[moxco]

NO IT DOESN'T!

Not fitting gender roles created by society does not make you of the opposite sex. Tell me, what does it mean to be a women? What does it mean to be a man?

[Wings of Fire]

NO IT DOESN'T!

Not fitting gender roles created by society does not make you of the opposite sex.

You're just not getting this are you?

[Sekto Springs]

Considering how muddied the definition of "gender" has become, it may be beneficial to remove them from these documents just for the sake of avoiding the very conversations happening in this thread.

I believe that psychologically - you are whatever gender you feel you are. I can refer to a male as a female if they so wish it, and if that's the identity they've chosen. The mentality is what's important. From a physical standpoint, should this same person choose to have a sex change operation, he's just a male with mutilated genitals. I guess what I'm saying is; it's impossible to truly change your sex. But out of respect for those with complex identities, gender is something that shouldn't have to be observed.

[STM]

biologically and genetically, you are defined by gender as what sexual organs you have. Socially however it's a different story I expect.

[Dixanadu]

If you're a girl born with a dick...

I'd imagine that would cause confusion in the gender department.

Gender: Other

[STM]

So...there just needs to be three boxes?

[Wings of Fire]

So...there just needs to be three boxes?

More stigmatizing than just simply not stating.

biologically and genetically, you are defined by gender as what sexual organs you have.

No. That's not what gender means. The word you are looking for is 'sex'.

[STM]

Fair enough, might I ask (and I'm not ripping into you if that's what it sounds like) how you would do the system?

[Wings of Fire]

Fair enough, might I ask (and I'm not ripping into you if that's what it sounds like) how you would do the system?

The passport system? Exactly what the Home Office are planning to do as long as the benefits to the transgender community outweigh the fiscal costs.

As I have little information on either, I choose this once to trust the government knows what it is doing.

[Bullet Magnet]

Whoa, whoa, Joe! Let's not do anything hasty.

[Havoc]

Wait, trusting the government knows what they're doing? Hah!

[MeechMunchie]

That's how it starts. Then one day, BAM!

Hit by a truck.

Damn politics.

[Sekto Springs]

My friend got herpes for putting his trust in the political system.

[Manco]

That’s what he gets for sticking his trust in funny places.

[Nate]

NO IT DOESN'T!

Not fitting gender roles created by society does not make you of the opposite sex. Tell me, what does it mean to be a women? What does it mean to be a man?

You're just not getting this are you?

If I may intrude on this discussion and respond to MoxCo before WoF has an aneurism:


Moxco: You probably understand this first point, but just to clarify: What WoF is saying is that sex and gender are two different things. Sex is a physical thing and gender is a psychological thing. Gender may only be in the head and may just be a construct of society, but that doesn't make it unimportant.

You're acting as if someone who feels that they are a female born in to a man's body can just say to herself "It's an artificial concept!" and suddenly their gender will realign to their body. That shit just aint possible, so anything we can do to make their lives slightly easier would be a good thing.

[Dixanadu]

I still say the 'Other' box is a good idea.

[Nate]

How would you feel if you were described as 'Other'? It's still kinda offensive. The proposed option is to simply allow people to choose not to have gender listed at all.

[Dixanadu]

Wouldn't that cause confusion?

What about people with unisex names?

[Nate]

Wouldn't that cause confusion?

What about people with unisex names?

How would it be less confusing to have a person with a unisex name who selects 'Other'?

Besides, why is it important to have sex/gender on passports? Why does it matter if the person has a unisex name?

[MeechMunchie]

Besides, why is it important to have sex/gender on passports?

Because

we need

to identify people.