Earlier versions of NnT during development -

***Nate*** · #31 01-25-2016, 09:35 PM

My only significant disappointment in NnT was the lack of scene transitions. That's one of the things I really loved in AO, the sense that it was all one big world. Everything else I could pretty much accept.

Seperately, can someone please explain to me in a non-confrontative way what the problem is with the motion sensors in terms of gameplay? They looked a bit ugly, sure. But they moved at pretty much the same rate as the old ones and felt the same to me.

FrustratedAssassin · #32 01-25-2016, 10:50 PM

The problem with the sensor gates is that they can't overlap. In the originals sensors overlap lots of times, and that's an important part of the puzzles.

Connell · #33 01-26-2016, 01:04 AM

I can't see any reason the old sensors don't work either, so it must have been for visibility reasons.

Holy Sock · #34 01-26-2016, 01:44 AM

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It's the sligs I have a real issue with. Gilray went on and on about how they had to have a post-modern approach to solve all of these issues that arose by bringing the game forward, and he specifically mentioned the nature of sleeping sligs a handful of times. As we know, in the original, if you woke a slig up, he stayed awake until you left the screen, so I was eagerly awaiting to see how New 'n' Tasty handled this issue, because you couldn't simply slip out of the screen and come back in anymore. I was expecting the puzzles to be dramatically altered, to the point where if you wake up a slig, it could completely change how you would proceed. Honestly, it was exciting to have the possibility of multiple gameplay approaches.

And then JAW just decided to have the sligs fall back asleep after five seconds. Yep. Really wracked their brains over that one, didn't they? I don't know whether this was due to a lack of development time, or engine difficulties, but early on it certainly sounded like they had some grand plans for the sligs, other than a sleep timer.

It's still a great game. Flawed, but great.

At the end of the day they were trying to remake Oddysee and remake the same puzzles. I think changing how you approach Sligs is something that would be considered for a brand new Oddworld platformer.

I suppose they could have tried to do a spiritual remake like the new Ratchet and Clank game. It would have been interesting to play a story where you unlock the ability to Possess or Gamespeak like was originally intended in Oddysee.

FrustratedAssassin · #35 01-26-2016, 02:20 AM

How was it originally intended?

Phylum · #36 01-26-2016, 02:32 AM

Originally the idea was you couldn't chant until you got back to RF. I'm not sure if that was part of the plan before or after slig possession was a thing. I don't know quite the story with learning to talk, but Abe had his lips stitched as a baby and the idea of having to at least get your stitches cut before you can talk sounds familiar.

I believe the story with Abe's stitches now is that they just loosened over time because he had them put on young.

FrustratedAssassin · #37 01-26-2016, 02:41 AM

I can see why they removed those ideas from the game. I thought the original concept would've been technically impossible on the PS1 and that's why they didn't do it but they just scrapped it because it was bad design.

Phylum · #38 01-26-2016, 02:48 AM

Well here's the thing. There's a difference between having ideas for a story and designing a game. I don't know how far either of those ideas made it into the actual design. I do know that possessing sligs came pretty late in the game compared to lots of other things, and I'm pretty sure the original gameplay wasn't actually designed with it in mind. Someone - possibly an executive - decided Abe was too scrawny and he needed some way to fight back more beyond throwing rocks.

I don't think you can say the game where you escape the factory powerless, go on a spiritual journey, and then come back to save your pals is bad design though. It would probably be a very different game.

Also the game doesn't actually teach you how to chant until monsaic lines, so for lots of people they wouldn't even know about it in RF1 until the 2nd time through.

Varrok · #39 01-26-2016, 02:51 AM

The gamespeak is in the main menu. It's incredibly hard to miss it.

FrustratedAssassin · #40 01-26-2016, 03:15 AM

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I don't think you can say the game where you escape the factory powerless, go on a spiritual journey, and then come back to save your pals is bad design though. It would probably be a very different game.

It is bad design. Good storytelling, bad design. Good stories always suffer in video games for this exact reason.

Abe was given the ability to possess sligs because Lorne wanted a way for Abe to be able to fight back for short periods of time without it feeling like he was given a gun that was then taken away. In fact, before possession was introduced Abe could literally use industrial guns but that felt weird.

Holy Sock · #41 01-26-2016, 03:41 AM

The reason they gave him these abilities from the getgo was so the game stood out among other platformers. They used it as a hook since before that it plays like a regular old platformer - nothing too innovative or original about it. I might try and find quotes...

It's not bad design. In fact it would be an interesting way to design the game. The opening levels focus on traditional platforming, the natural enviornments introduce you to possession and incorporating it into puzzles and the return to Rupture Farms introduces gamespeak.

But introducing both concepts at the beginning was probably a much better way to get players interested in the game - particularly with the rise of 3D games.

kjjcarpenter · #42 01-26-2016, 03:42 AM

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The gamespeak is in the main menu. It's incredibly hard to miss it.

I made it all the way to Scrabania Nests without realising I could possess sligs. I kept holding down the chant button after the possession was complete, and the sligs simply detonated. It was my uncle that eventually told me I could actually take control of them. Of course, I was six-years-old, and I thought possession must have meant blow your enemies to kingdom come.

I suppose you could say I almost—almost—played the game the way it was intended.

Varrok · #43 01-26-2016, 03:48 AM

Phylum · #44 01-26-2016, 05:21 AM

Varrok had fun once, but it left him in a weakened state and his doctors have advised against it ever since.

Varrok · #45 01-26-2016, 05:25 AM

I thought laughing out loud is an indicator of having fun

FrustratedAssassin · #46 01-26-2016, 05:28 AM

Posting "lol" on an obscure gaming forum however is not.

Varrok · #47 01-26-2016, 05:35 AM

I literally found it funny

Vlam · #48 01-26-2016, 06:58 AM

Nnt is a regressive remake from the start : AO was supposed, according to Lanning, to be in 3D (like Munch). Lanning is very self-indulgent by making this remake who adds nothing to the original.

FrustratedAssassin · #49 01-26-2016, 07:05 AM

Spoiler alert: remakes aren't supposed to add anything new.

The only reason they did NnT and they're doing TzF is to raise money for the next original entry in the series.

Vlam · #50 01-26-2016, 07:10 AM

Yes, I know the official reason who is as cheap as the final product.

FrustratedAssassin · #51 01-26-2016, 09:03 AM

Oh yeah they could totally afford to make a new game, they were just to cheap to do it (???) so they did another game instead which also costs money (???) and pretended to do it so they can make more money (???). I can totally literally find no flaws in your logic. At all.

Holy Sock · #52 01-26-2016, 09:17 AM

Also everyone asked for it. If Lorne is to be believed (and I bet vlam would say he isn't) a remake of the originals or a return to 2D platforming wasn't on his radar before that.

Manco · #53 01-26-2016, 11:07 AM

I personally don’t take Lorne as someone who’s interested in remakes, he has so many other ideas that I think he’d much rather be working on.

Vlam · #54 01-26-2016, 11:29 AM

The official reason is weird (coming from Lanning) : the end (more money) justifies the end (AO's remake who isn't necessary).

This is why Nnt has been criticize : it's a safe project with 0 risk (unlike Munch's hybris) and what do we get ? A sloppy gameplay, etc.

Manco · #55 01-26-2016, 11:33 AM

OK, but “let’s do a safe project to raise enough funding for a riskier project” seems perfectly logical to me.

And the criticisms people have of NnT don’t really have anything to do with it being a safe project, and everything to do with it not matching their expectations of a reimagined AO.

Varrok · #56 01-26-2016, 11:38 AM

I don't know how you can consider NnT a kind of small, safe project.

I thought it was supposed to be a big thing.

Vlam · #57 01-26-2016, 11:53 AM

It was suppose to be a safe project : you will be able to sell a game (based on nostalgia) who is the same thing (with improvements, in theory).

Examples of risky projects : making AO's remake in 3D or Squeek (by JAW).

Holy Sock · #58 01-26-2016, 12:36 PM

It was because they couldn't afford to do a new Oddworld game. A remake sells on nostalgia, yes, but a brand new modern Oddworld game, with the right marketing, would sell, too. As Manco said they'd probably much rather be making new games with new ideas but they're being realistic about what they can afford to do. Hell, they could only afford to remake Oddysee because of Stranger HD and all of those art archives they had from the originals - saving them a few million in assets.

Vlam · #59 01-26-2016, 12:52 PM

Yes, I know : "being realistic", "the end justifies the means", "let's not stick with JAW". One has to wonder why Lanning and EA didn't get along. I mean : it's a shame he didn't do compromise, back then.

Manco · #60 01-26-2016, 12:54 PM

You’re actually going in circles now, you’ve been told before what went wrong with Lanning and EA and you still keep rolling it out as some weird argument against Lanning.