Speedrun timing

[Shade667]

So... umm...
We are kinda stumped on how to time speedruns now with the version differences.

Need suggestions. This is aimed at speedrunners, but Im not gonna be picky.

[Samtastic]

Well, Speed Demos Archive rules are that timing starts as soon as the first frame of taking control of the character and ends when you loose control. I always start my timer on the first frame of input.

[Havoc]

It really isn't that hard mate. You start and stop the timing before/after every loading moment. So if entering a door triggers a load, then stop the time the moment you lose control when entering the door and vice versa.

[Phylum]

What do people usually do for PC games with variable loading times?

As far as I know it's usually just ignored. As for not being comparable to the PS4 version, you're probably just going to have to live with that and put PC runs in a different category. Again, this seems to be the happening thing when there are significant timing differences between versions.

[Havoc]

Yeah, I can't possibly imagine that people have been speedrunning since the dawn of gaming and this problem has never come up. You're creating problems that don't exist.

[Phylum]

Oh also Havoc your suggestion about starting and stopping the clock all of the time is bad, because it introduces a lot of human error to the final times. Just starting and stopping at the beginning and end can be bad enough when fractions of a second count.

[Shade667]

Well, Speed Demos Archive rules are that timing starts as soon as the first frame of taking control of the character and ends when you loose control. I always start my timer on the first frame of input.

But the PC version has load time differences. Pc will eithe rhave a severe disadvantage or advantage.


And if we put it into a sperate category, then well now have 18 categories for 4 different runners.
Easy any%, Normal any%, Hard any%, Easy 50% (good ending), normal 50%, Hard 50%, Easy 100%, Normal 100% and Hard 100%.
And difficulties play a big part, because the amount of damage u can take in easy and normal, as well as hor many bombs or rocks you can carry changes routing and strats significantly.

And if we split the categories, then what happens when people want to run the PS3, wii-u and vita versions?
I dont think we should have 45 categories.

Splitting categories is the easy way, but itll be hard to manage. And newer runners on PC wont feel like theres any competition, cuz there isnt.
If we could figure out the load times and subtract, itd be great. But with varying PC load times itll be difficult.

And we cant use the in game timer. Theres no way of telling if the person doing it did it Single segment or not. Unless they recorded it.

[Havoc]

Oh also Havoc your suggestion about starting and stopping the clock all of the time is bad, because it introduces a lot of human error to the final times. Just starting and stopping at the beginning and end can be bad enough when fractions of a second count.

Not really. Because times on SDA are generally verified by other users and if they don't know how to rule a timing, the site managers will give their verdict on how a game should be timed. You want to run this game properly, you have to do it segmented between every single loading point. If you want to do a single run then someone is going to have the daunting task of counting frames near every single load moment to determine who control is gained and when it is lost.

But seriously, I do not get the problem. The rules, for SDA at least, are right there on their website for everyone to read.

How are runs timed?
If a game displays a time upon completion, and this time is tested to be accurate, then the timer will be used. An example of an inaccurate game timer is one that doesn't display the exact time when a player saves, such as Star Ocean 2's timer, which drops seconds when saving. Some game timers don't count time at pause/inventory screens, dialogs, cutscenes, etc., so the time can be significantly less than the video length. Some games have a timer but it can't be seen at the end of the game. In most of those cases the timer will be ignored. For some games like RPGs, however, such timers are displayed in a menu screen that you would be looking at before the final battle; that time will be noted and real time from that point added on.
For games without timers, a simple real-time measure is used. When the player first gains control of the game's character, timing begins. At the end when control is lost, even if that's long after the final battle, the timing stops. Possible movement that can occur during or after the ending credits does not count. For segmented runs, timing for a segment stops at the first system-dependent activity, usually the actual saving. When loading, the timing resumes at the point when the game was saving or displaying the password. For runs over three hours, the seconds are dropped because slight variations in recording speed can become significant.
For games that let you save anywhere (i.e. without save points), a half second save penalty is added for each save. This is designed to discourage someone from potentially using thousands of segments in a run. We do not restrict segmentation in games with save points because the save points themselves are already a form of restriction. The half second penalty applies to both regular saves and quicksaves; menu time isn't counted for regular saves. However, autosaves incur no save penalty since the runner cannot avoid them.

Not only that, but AO and AE are both on SDA and both have the same loading time issue. So why does Shade insist that loading times are an issue when they very clearly aren't?

But the PC version has load time differences. Pc will eithe rhave a severe disadvantage or advantage.

Dude, seriously, Samlaptop (the person who currently holds the 100% record for both AO and AE, which you are hopefully well aware of) literally just told you that loading times are not added into the timing. Ever. Why are you still contesting that? -_-

[Samtastic]

If you are running for speed demos archive, they prefer to use in game timing. So RTA timing may not apply for SDA runs.

[Shade667]

U talk like im the only one figuring this out. Im not making these decisions on my own.

Timing for SDA isnt how u should do it unless ur submitting a run to SDA, not to speedrun.com. (I shouldnt say should, communities can do it whatever ways agreed upon) We dont do it from first frame of input, because cutscene skipping is in the game. We start at pressing start at the config screen. Because skipping that first cutscene is a human input. And that the cutscene after is unskippable and in game, just like the intros to paramonia and scrabania. Its arbitrary, but thats why we start 20 seconds earlier.

I dont think anyones done an official segmented run of a game in years. Theyre a thing of the past. Its single segment or nothing these days. People dont take them seriously.

In order for load times to not be included, we first have to figure out how long those load times are in the first place. Which, if my ps4 loads a level in 8 seconds, and ur PC loads a level in 2, each runner will have to figure it out individually and subtract from the total time.
You talk like theres nothing wrong there.

[tda]

This is actually kinda relevant to something i read about recently- http://blog.cosmowright.com/?p=33

TLDR; Speedrunners of Ocarina of Time will only run the japanese release because it runs at a higher framerate than the PAL release which therefore leads to overall faster RTA times. The japanese text is also faster to skip through. Seems to me that in order to get the best times, people play the version that runs the fastest. So, just run the PC version? Problem solved. I'm pretty sure Dark Souls runners swapped to PC too.

edit - this is my personal opinion ofc

[Samtastic]

Ok. I have added the in-game timer to speedrun.com at www.speedrun.com/onnt. Now, runners need to submit their in-game time as well as their RTA time.

[Shade667]

Ok. I have added the in-game timer to speedrun.com at www.speedrun.com/onnt. Now, runners need to submit their in-game time as well as their RTA time.

And how will we find out our IGT? Ive run 100% and any%. The only way to find out my time would be to check the leaderboards right? But for me to see my time the leaderboard has to update. And if I get a technically worse time (any% after doing 100%) it wont update. I could use the save file time, but that doesnt show seconds.

@tda
1. I dont have a PC.
2. Pc wont always be the fastest. It depends on the PC. Since it loads from ur harddrive, it could be slower than PS4. For that reason even comparing PC to PC is a hassle.

[Phylum]

1. So maybe you can't run the game, much like anyone who doesn't fork out for a Japanese copy of OoT...?

2. You still didn't answer my question, which is how people usually handle it. From the sound of it I'm wrong, and games with a serious difference in times actually have to be gone back over to remove loading from the final times. I don't know how extreme NnT's load time variation is, but that sounds like the best and most reliable method.

[Shade667]

I know in mirrors edge they remove loading times, but I dont know whether the game does that for them.
If the save file showed seconds we wouldnt have this problem lol.

Im not really sure how most games do it. Im only big into the spyro and jak scenes. I dont watch alot of PC speedruns. Mostly ps1 and 2 games. And the only differences for those games are whether its NTSC or PAl, and whether ur playing on PS1 or 2.

[Samtastic]

You can check your in game time by going back to the main menu after finishing your run.

[Shade667]

You can check your in game time by going back to the main menu after finishing your run.

but it doesnt show seconds. If you and starwin start competing, and you both get a 1:08 (probably more like 56 IGT) then u wont know whos ahead without the seconds. And looking how starwins going, u might need to bring it down to milliseconds too.

[Phylum]

Dude I literally told you what you have to do for lots of PC runs. You go back over the video and discount the loading times (from the frame you lose control to the frame you regain it). That's the solution to your predicament. For comparing to PS4 runs you can just figure out a loading time offset. Assuming each system loads consistently (which is a fairly safe bet) you can do the same thing for each platform it releases on.

[Havoc]

Dude I literally told you what you have to do for lots of PC runs. You go back over the video and discount the loading times (from the frame you lose control to the frame you regain it). That's the solution to your predicament. For comparing to PS4 runs you can just figure out a loading time offset. Assuming each system loads consistently (which is a fairly safe bet) you can do the same thing for each platform it releases on.

That's what I said, but it doesn't seem to enter his head or something.

[Shade667]

Dude I literally told you what you have to do for lots of PC runs. You go back over the video and discount the loading times (from the frame you lose control to the frame you regain it). That's the solution to your predicament. For comparing to PS4 runs you can just figure out a loading time offset. Assuming each system loads consistently (which is a fairly safe bet) you can do the same thing for each platform it releases on.

Do people really do that though, or is that just a suggestion?

Also, I wont be doing anything. This isnt for me. This is for everyone whos gonna run PC, cuz im not. Were trying to work this out as a group...
The only way it concerns me is when we get to the leaderboards. Which is after my timings already done.

If everyone on PC has to go through and check their load times frame by frame its reallly gonna put people off running it. The routes already online, starwin posts his runs all the time. Ive got a 100% trick video showing off route order. The resources are there for that, so thisll be the hardest part of running the game on PC.
And other versions. Cuz PS4 is the version to compare to.

Edit: Im taking suggestions. Its in the first post. Everything u guys are saying im reading twice, sometimes 3 times. Just because I question what you mean or play devils advocate in an opinion doesnt mean im ignoring you.

[Phylum]

That's not just for segmented runs. That's what people who run games on PC have to do. It will put some people off. But lots of people run PC games and put up with that. Especially if you want to be able to have a unified community where you can compare times between PC and PS4, there is really no alternative.

[Starwin]

Dude I literally told you what you have to do for lots of PC runs. You go back over the video and discount the loading times (from the frame you lose control to the frame you regain it). That's the solution to your predicament. For comparing to PS4 runs you can just figure out a loading time offset. Assuming each system loads consistently (which is a fairly safe bet) you can do the same thing for each platform it releases on.

Pretty much what I thought. I plan on moving to PC after I get my 1:06 on PS4.

Also in regards to RTA and IGT, I think regardless people need to be timing there runs in real time. Only because people can go back after their run and select the chapters they did wrong and improve the time. Which will improve the overall time on the leader boards and the save file it self. I think if people keep track of their RTA time it will help in the long run for converting the times to console.

Lastly when we should start the timer, while SDA says to start it the first frame you can move, I think starting it at the configuration screen is best, only because skipping cut scenes is a big factor in the run. For example after Paramonia I skip the cut scene then split. In my eyes you're not technically done with the level until the load screen pops up and shows the name of the next stage. Since you have to skip a cut scene in the very beginning, I think we should start at the configuration screen.

Also Hi I'm Starwin, glad to see a discussion about this stuff.

[Shade667]

That's not just for segmented runs. That's what people who run games on PC have to do. It will put some people off. But lots of people run PC games and put up with that. Especially if you want to be able to have a unified community where you can compare times between PC and PS4, there is really no alternative.

I never talk about segmented. To me, Segmented runs are just for practice.

[Phylum]

I misread "suggestion" in your previous post as something about segmentation, sorry

[Shade667]

No problem.

[Shade667]

Little offtopic, but I was watching someguy stream earlier. he was reading the little text on the loading screen, But it kept going by so fast he couldnt read it in time. Thought it was funny since were talking about loading times.

[Havoc]

Shade, how old are you?

[Phylum]

Subtle as always.

[Varrok]

Havoc fears Shade might not be of legal age for him. Also, that he is not a tiger Pizza

[Havoc]

I never fear such trivial matters.