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  #1  
03-10-2011, 02:22 PM
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Does personality equal childishness?

Ever since I came here so long ago I've always seen people post that they prefer Oddysee to the other abe game's because it's "darker" and the latter 2 are "childish". I have no problem with someone having a favorite game, but I find the childish argument to be a bit flawed.

First off, I think we need to realize what made Oddysee dark in the first place. The way I see it, the narrative of the game is pretty limited. The only one we hear clearly talking is abe. We get little blurbs from Big face, mullock, some magog cartel dude, and his slig assistant but ultimately we don't really know much about them. All that the player knows is that there is this sad blue dude thrown into an oppressive environment and he has to survive. This gives off a feeling of what I guess is fear for the player and he associates this with the game being dark. In comparison, a lot of people find a game like minecraft, which is a pretty silly looking and emotionally bland game, terrifying because of how powerless they are in the middle of the night or in a dark cave.

So let's look at Exoddus, Abe is again thrown into an oppressive environment, but this time the narrative allows us to be more familiar with our enemies. We have tv broadcasts of what Dripik, Phleg, and Asilik have to say about the situation as well as a small conference scene. They are inarguably not as cool about the whole thing as molluck was (hell even molluck wasn't calm about it by the end) and the player ends up being introduced to big bosses that are at their core power hungry man children. I've seen people interpret this as kiddy because it's "silly" but really, is the silliness a bad thing?

Is every bad guy in the world expected to be some calm and collected crime boss that tends to be one step ahead of the protagonist? Of course not, Abe's Exoddus introduces the player - assuming he's coming straight from Oddysee - to how expansive oddworld is and how varied the characters are. To be quite frank, I would have found the Barracks/Boneworkz/Depot sections to be a lot more boring if the bosses weren't so colorful. Some may argue that the dread is gone because some things become more easily accessible (you never even possess a glukkon in Oddysee and in Exoddus they end up coming out as often as sligs) but isn't that expected? Shouldn't Abe be able to gain more abilities and accessibility as he gets more experience through his journey?

On the subject of Munch, it would be silly of me to say that the presentation's of the cutscenes was less than cartoony. I could try to defend it by saying Oddysee had it's own cartoony sound effect moments (Abe falling off the cliff, Abe getting knocked in the head with a pipe while in the barrel) but the way I see it it would end up being a moot point. A lot of people dislike Munch as a character because he himself contributes to a lot of the game's Cartooniness (i'm making up words now bear with me here). The thing is, according to the artbook Munch was supposed to have that same kind of sympathetic quality as Abe did. They couldn't have made a character just like Abe though, they needed someone a bit more impulsive and expressively daring. It's all a matter of diversity, if munch ended up being another Abe then people would no doubt complain about a sort of re-use of traits.

This has all just been one big observation on my part really, and while I worry that it will look like the ramblings of a mad man I'll take my chances and hope. I can see why people would find Munch's Oddysee "childish" but not so for Exoddus. I would like to see what other people have to say on the matter because it all seems like a big misinterpretation of personality.
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  #2  
03-10-2011, 03:53 PM
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One of the things to keep in mind is that the first game of a series is what usually establishes both the fanbase and the tone. That tone being what the fans then view as the default. Exoddus was unusual in the world of sequels in that it was not, as it usually goes, darker and edgier. Quite the opposite. This is understandable, usually the second instalment of a series puts the protagonist(s) in much greater peril as things get worse before they get better. Not in Oddworld, I don't think. In a traditional tragedy (which we know the Oddysee series will be) things start looking up for the protagonist toward the end of the second act before things start taking a terrible and irreversible turn for the worst.

In Abe's Oddysee Abe's journey is thrust upon him out of nowhere, he find his entire world turned against him and fights for basic survival, before escaping, learning his cultural heritage and learning his destiny, accepts it, then returns to the dragon's lair to slay the villain and save his people. All the way through Molluck is what he always has been to Abe: the powerful, capricious, ruthless guy in charge of Abe's entire world.

In Exoddus, we learn more about Molluck's place in the wider scheme of things. We get hints that that the Glukkon's may not really be the worst or the top of the food chain.
Notice that Abe chooses this adventure, rather than having it thrust upon him. He has some idea of what he is going to face, if not the details, and he now knows what role he plays. We see that the assembled villains' ruthlessness is matched only by their incompetence, but the impression is still that if Abe had grown up in their employ instead then he would see them as he saw Molluck, and how small his world in Oddysee had been. The Exoddus world is still small, but we start to see it that way. A piece of an inscrutable whole.

Greeters. There's an enemy that would stand out in Rupture Farms. And fleeches, who go out of their way to mitigate your frustration at dying by belching loudly. Mudokon fist-fights. Laughing gas.

That's plot and character. There's more to it than that. Art direction, for example. The palette of the world was generally brighter and more colourful. Much of it occured in the day. Even Necrum, a Mudokon necropolis, is bright, and indeed tropical. An oasis. It is one of the most atmospheric parts of the game rivalling Monsaic Lines, but Necrum was a destination rather than discovery. The climates of the native environments in Exoddus were quite attractive as a potential holiday destination, while Oddysee feature the desert part of the desert and a temperate forest. The temples in Oddysee felt genuinely dank, dark and ancient. Mundanchee vault was well-lit, and Mudomo's purple wasn't quite as oppressive as the Paramonian temple's green. The grittiness of the original's assets and backgrounds compared to the crisper sequal's should not be underestimated either.
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03-10-2011, 04:12 PM
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All of the games have a goofy sense of humor as dark as some of them may be. Munch was considered cartoonish or just less dark, because it was LITERALLY less dark and there were so many environments in broad daylight. Like what Bullet Magnet was saying about the color schemes of AO and AE. I think the bouncing sounds of Munch didn't help either. I do agree with you Metroixer that Munch's game was misinterpreted as being too much like a cartoon but I think it's simply because the gameplay was pretty flawed. You also have to admit the feelingof dread just wasn't....there. And everything in the setup of Munch's plot seems like it would be freakin full of dread and despair.
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03-11-2011, 08:18 AM
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In a traditional tragedy following Socrates tradition (Shakespeare took a lot of note from Socrates when devising his version of Bandello/ Romeus and Juliet when writing Romeo and Juliet) there is always comedy to keep the audience entertained and unexpecting of the final end, but also to make the protagonists fall that much more painful. In AO and AE, there is a fair amount of comical notation (for example, when Abe falls off the cliff in AO and there those bouncy noises when we must remember he has actually broken his head and died,) yet at the same time, especially in AO as BM noted with the harsher pallets of colour, there is this underlying darkness and unrelenting foreshadowing of death that chiefly hangs over every character.

In MO there is a change in gameplay, the switch to 3D is automatically going to alter our perception of the game's cartoonyness, we expect, in 2011, to be amazed by stunning graphics and to a lesser extent for some reason, intriguing plots. MO only offered one of these factors and even then, the plot was comparably shallow when paralleled against AO/AE. Also, Munch, is a character that is so mis-proportioned and with such a funny voice one can only assume that there is a lighter tone in MO.

Perhaps therefore MO is Oddworld's Act 2 in comparison with Romeo and Juliet. SW returns a degree of the initial fear and darkness with a shadowy character, a fiendish parasitic, corporate enemy and seemingly more isolated areas. However, again there are the Clakkerz and while I like them personally, they are walkin' talkin' Texan chickens. Also, while there is constant battle as you would expect from a FPS/TPS, there is incentive to capture enemies alive, also watching an enemy being stung by a wasp is pretty funny. But the bosses, especially the early game outlaw bosses, are quite stupid looking and derpy which again, alters how dark we feel SW is. Especially when the initial cut scene sees Stranger apparently end that outlaws life in cold blood, once the game starts however, we release he's just in jail, 'killed' by non-lethal weaponry.
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03-11-2011, 09:35 AM
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Through all this jargon can we all just agree that Munch's Oddysee wasn't necessarily childish but just sucked as a game*?



* WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
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  #6  
03-12-2011, 12:35 AM
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Well there are numerous pointers the lead to MO being classes as a childish game, although I think childish is an inappropriate word choice.
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Oh yeah, fair point. Maybe he was just tortured until he lost consciousness.

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  #7  
03-12-2011, 09:48 AM
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The fact that Sligs talk to each other saying: "Wassup brother?" didn't help too. I'm playing through Munch and i have to say, that it has nothing to do with other games, but the fact that you can play with Abe and see other species that were present in AO & AE.
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03-12-2011, 10:59 AM
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What are you talking about? The main theme of the entire series is still there. Industry vs nature. Just because the gameplay is different doesn't make it completely unrelated to the other games. You may as well say Stranger's Wrath isn't an oddworld game too.

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although I think childish is an inappropriate word choice.
I agree, I think the word I was looking for more was "oddworld spirit" as someone in the review thread called it. What the hell is the "spirit" of oddworld anyway?
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03-12-2011, 11:58 AM
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It's just a certain ambiance or feeling that you can't quite explain in words.
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  #10  
03-12-2011, 12:08 PM
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03-12-2011, 04:56 PM
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What are you talking about? The main theme of the entire series is still there. Industry vs nature. Just because the gameplay is different doesn't make it completely unrelated to the other games. You may as well say Stranger's Wrath isn't an oddworld game too.



I agree, I think the word I was looking for more was "oddworld spirit" as someone in the review thread called it. What the hell is the "spirit" of oddworld anyway?
I think Stranger's is more related to Oddworld than Munch's.
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03-12-2011, 05:46 PM
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Ok, how?
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  #13  
03-13-2011, 04:47 AM
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It is in the sense of ambience and shit like that, but not story wise.
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Oh yeah, fair point. Maybe he was just tortured until he lost consciousness.

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03-13-2011, 05:28 AM
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personaly i didnt feel that the creatures of stranger's wrath were very oddworld like (appart from the live ammo). stranger's was a better game but in Munch's deffence i felt that the characters were more fitting with the previous installments, at least the vykkers did.... but yet again, the meeps didnt help (same with the Clakerz, they were a terrible character).
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03-13-2011, 05:46 AM
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Not very Oddworld like? Let us not forget that in MO the Scrab's didnt fight each other..... The Clackers. Well they clearly were chickens. I know Slogs in Oddworld are the equvialent of dogs but the slogs did look like something unique and looked quite different from dogs. The Clackers do look just like human chickens
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03-13-2011, 09:23 AM
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A big part of the problem fans are having with the newer Oddworld installments I think, is the inconsistency with Steven Old's brilliant character and environment designs. There's a definite devolution in design after he left and that might very well be the biggest factor in the loss of the Oddworld feel in the newer games.
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03-14-2011, 01:07 AM
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A big part of the problem fans are having with the newer Oddworld installments I think, is the inconsistency with Steven Old's brilliant character and environment designs. There's a definite devolution in design after he left and that might very well be the biggest factor in the loss of the Oddworld feel in the newer games.
very true, they need him back before making any "new" oddworld games i think
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03-14-2011, 07:39 AM
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It is true, but it probably won't happen as Xavier as said, he's making more moooolah on other things; unless he'll do it out of some noble cause that is I guess.
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03-16-2011, 03:03 AM
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A big part of the problem fans are having with the newer Oddworld installments I think, is the inconsistency with Steven Old's brilliant character and environment designs. There's a definite devolution in design after he left and that might very well be the biggest factor in the loss of the Oddworld feel in the newer games.
Farzad is an amazing character designer, and I don't think you can tell MO is the way it is now because of his designs. That would just be a slap in his face.

MO is the way it is because it was rushed.

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03-16-2011, 03:57 AM
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Meeps and Clakkerz are obviously sheep and walking chicken-people; I've never played MO or SW, I've just seen pictures, and those were my immediate thoughts. I can't think of a single thing even slightly similar to a Mudokon, Glukkon, Slig, Slog, Scrab, Paramite, Elum, Fleech or whatever.

The design of the environments are very odd, too, but it's not just the spindly palm trees and strangely-formed rocks. The 2D platforming environment is vastly different to our wide, flat landscapes. To me, Oddworld in fact looks less odd in the cutscenes where flat areas of ground are obviously visible: the desert in the opening scene, and the Brew and Happy Ending cutscenes. There are weird rocks and there's some curious architecture, but it's flat just like our own world. As I said, I haven't played the latter two games, but I'm fairly sure that the strange narrow pathways of the AO and AE contribute quite strongly to the oddness of it all.
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03-16-2011, 09:26 AM
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Slogs are clearly "Oddworld dogs" and if you ask me I think Fleeches are the equivilent of leeches. Look close F-LEECH. LEECH

See what I mean?
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03-16-2011, 09:48 AM
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OH SHIT! I never saw that before, you've opened my bloody eyes!
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Oh yeah, fair point. Maybe he was just tortured until he lost consciousness.

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03-16-2011, 10:07 AM
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The design of the environments are very odd, too, but it's not just the spindly palm trees and strangely-formed rocks. The 2D platforming environment is vastly different to our wide, flat landscapes. To me, Oddworld in fact looks less odd in the cutscenes where flat areas of ground are obviously visible: the desert in the opening scene, and the Brew and Happy Ending cutscenes. There are weird rocks and there's some curious architecture, but it's flat just like our own world.
1: Our own world isn't flat. Superficially Earth and Oddworld's geography are similar.

2: That is actually down to technical, time and budget constraints in producing those FMVs. If they had the backing and production cycle afforded to James Cameron those things would have been a different beast entirely.
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03-16-2011, 10:36 AM
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The main question is, are 'mature' games and films really less childish than kids programs? Some 'mature' games and films can be very immature. I think it's mainly the use of language and whether the talk turns to insults and references to certain activities.
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03-21-2011, 07:34 AM
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In my opinion the lighter tone is indicative of the larger plot. There is alot more going on in Exoddus than Oddysee and so it's personality is heightened. However, the amount of none-industrial sections and more "native" feeling seem to help as well. And just saying, this is a series that lets you excrete bodily functions at any given time. >_<
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03-21-2011, 08:21 AM
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Farzad is an amazing character designer, and I don't think you can tell MO is the way it is now because of his designs. That would just be a slap in his face.

MO is the way it is because it was rushed.
Yes Farzard is very good, but not quite as good in my opinion. The environments definitely weren't ODD enough due to the rush. I think in MO the world seemed too safe whereas in he other games you felt a sense of danger everywhere. you feel me?

And the stupid newspaper scenes....come on. just come on. I don't like Mudokons having teeth either. It's like when they showed Elmo with teeth: fucking creepy.
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03-21-2011, 08:24 AM
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Plus, the more obvious "game" elements didnt help MO much. spooces and big xbox buttons etc...
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03-21-2011, 08:27 AM
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Yeah, friggin mario mushrooms or something. I was also wishing for an underwater level with Munch but no no that would have been to awesome wouldn't it? And the multiple glukkon donation/possession level was so freaking boring. I refuse to believe glukkons really project money as magical floating currency symbols from their head.
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03-21-2011, 08:36 AM
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Probably wouldve happened if the damn game werent thrown from a burning building. And yeah the numbers comin' up over their heads and the fact that mudokans can be ressurected...what the hell's the point of the last two games if mudokans can be brought back to life? Did I waste my time shepharding those idiots through grinders and all kinds of shit!? argh...
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03-21-2011, 08:41 AM
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lol

I remember playing this game worrying that if I let any die even if they were resurrected I couldn't get perfect quarma. I also replayed after getting angelic quarma thinking that that wasn't it. I realised I replayed twice for nothing.

I think my other comment on design sounded harsh now looking back at it, the Vykkers were definitely the best thing out of that game...which I think Farzad designed. Very original, creepy; the perfect bad guys. The environments were just sooooooo boring.
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Last edited by ziggy; 03-21-2011 at 08:45 AM..
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