Good Ol' Fashioned God Debate -

Wings of Fire · #**151** 07-19-2010, 05:30 PM

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why do ppl think god exists? where is the proof where is the picture where is he why doesnt he show up,i dont belive in god becouse i know that the universe became with math and chemistry,and humans evolved from microbes that landed on earth billions of years ago? so where is this god?where did he came from? how did he appear in the first place? anyone got an answer?

How about you fuck off with your pretentious arrogance right now and answer your own questions before seeking answers from others?

Some people have this thing called faith, it doesn't need evidence and if they're not hurting anyone directly or indirectly through their faith then you have no right to demand explanations from them.

Scraby · #**152** 07-19-2010, 05:33 PM

yeah thats what you all say,i dont belive till i see him with my own eyes

Wings of Fire · #**153** 07-19-2010, 05:34 PM

Uuuuh

I'm not religious? But I'm also not arrogant and have respect for others. You should try that sometime.

Scraby · #**154** 07-19-2010, 05:37 PM

ok,sry,not in good mood,im wery tierd,i get annoyed by a single fly that passess around,im just asking,didnt mean to offend you

i wanted to ask how can you belave (example.) in me if you never met me,what if i dont exist.... i mean if i would see something like that then i would belive,u know what im trying to say? dont get offended pls?

Bart · #**155** 07-19-2010, 06:11 PM

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How about you fuck off with your pretentious arrogance right now and answer your own questions before seeking answers from others?

Some people have this thing called faith, it doesn't need evidence and if they're not hurting anyone directly or indirectly through their faith then you have no right to demand explanations from them.

Faith doesn't appear in your head spontaneously, people believe for reasons, and trust the little evidence they have while ignoring other evidence against it. BTW what kind of a debate can you have without people explaining themselves?

Wings of Fire · #**156** 07-19-2010, 06:15 PM

Faith does not require any kind of scientific evidence, it's down to personal experiences and beliefs. You can't have any debate without people explaining themselves, but that's up to the discretion of the debators. Nobody is obligated to respond to a straight up attack at their beliefs, especially not one as rude as that.

Scraby · #**157** 07-19-2010, 06:18 PM

yeah well those where questions,not attacking questions...attacking questions are.example.are you mad,you think god exist shit head?your crazy!(thats an example of being rude)

i once loved the egiptian gods,and that what i put for an example is what religion does:my god is better,he is the only one,your god is false.... thats what you hear from ppl,mostly christians do that,not all,the rude guys(skinheads...evil punkers and that form of christians and those that have jail records),they say their god is better then some other god,and thatss what we see on tv ppl kill ppl becouse insults come like this,and woosh...

Wings of Fire · #**158** 07-19-2010, 06:30 PM

I should note I'm playing devil's advocate for a philosophical God, for the existence of a God or a constituent set of metaphysical parts that when whole is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenelovent. Not for a God of any particular religion.

Scraby · #**159** 07-19-2010, 06:34 PM

(post deleted,moderators pls delete this)

Havoc · #**160** 07-19-2010, 07:16 PM

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why do ppl think god exists?

Because the bible says he exists and apparently that's perfectly normal logic to religious people.

abe619 · #**161** 07-19-2010, 08:42 PM

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You won't convert anyone that way.

who said i am trying to convert someone?
i am just making my beliefs clear

@ T-nex: no HE is a HE , as HE reffered to HIMself in quar'aan.

@ Havoc: no it's very rational... (i am lazy so i'll just pick some parts from a wikihow page ^^)
look for life where it has no known cause, no design and no plan. Life is an action, and an action needs a cause. Would you expect life without a cause or plan? Is there much probability?

If the universe were created by chance (without intelligence), then what power does time and chance have? Chance has no creative ability, since it is just a concept of ratios; probability has no power; it is merely a number like: zero or infinitesimally small, or 99.9%. So, if there were no cytoplasmic life in billions (thousands of millions) of years, then what chance is there of success by adding similarly 1000s of millions of years still without a cause, design or plan and so to form reproductive living cells.
Do you feel that lucky? So did mother nature get so lucky that she created life without a plan, without sterile lab conditions and with no previously existing organic materials?

Life comes from life. That is all we know: scientifically it has not been proven beyond a doubt how cells began. No, DNA and RNA couldn't make it very far with no cell in which to operate, no organelles, no nucleus, no food, no biological energy, no organization? Having no place or way for life to begin is as good as saying it could not reasonably happen...

Poof! and "Oh, it was just there." makes no sense at all. So what if DNA took millions of years to develop, then it still needed an enclosed environ (a cell) and organelles (cell parts)... But if there is a God - an all powerful God would have the power to create something out of nothing, not because of any preconceived or preeminent matter, but because the all powerful God can do that by definition!

could static electricity or an electrical flash of lightning like an explosion near a puddle such as a tidal pool cause the initializing of mitochondrial energy creation, "purposeless" living cells that would then automatically begin digestion, and of course reproduction, to somehow achieve "genetic programming of uniqueness" but still be the same in multitudes of meaningful ways, programming of instincts and immune system, healing of injuries, nerves, nerves cooperating, nerves communicating, autonomic life processes (automated) like respiration, hundreds or millions of interrelated reactions and systems,...

Look at how nature breaks down things and think about whether creation of life seems natural! The 2nd. Law of Thermodynamics states that all things are wearing down. Nature is about breaking down rocks to pebbles and to sand, dissolving, oxidizing, mineral deposits, poison, corrosion, erosion, and rot. If that is true, then how could evolution be true? Evolution is still a theory (even after almost 200 years), meaning that is is not proven, and it can't be proven because it contradicts a law. God can override laws as he wishes, after all, He made laws and is not bound by them.

cheap rip off from an article on wikihow, but it sounds very rational to me.

Wings of Fire · #**162** 07-19-2010, 08:44 PM

Surely such gender descriptors are rendered useless when describing a being we can't even comprehend?

EDIT: I'm sorry, I can't even begin to argue against that this early in the morning. I can't really find anything inside it that isn't sophistry.

***Nate*** · #**163** 07-19-2010, 09:36 PM

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I would prefer that God was referred to as she.. <.<

You should investigate the World Mission Society Church of God. They believe in God the Mother together with the better known God the Father and God the Son. I believe the logic goes something along like this... "The bible refers to God as 'He' and 'Father'. In our world, anything that has a father also has a mother. Therefore there must be a mother god as well." This vaguely misses the point that ancient (and modern) Hebrew does not have gender neutral pronouns. There is not even an equivalent of 'it' - inanimate objects are given gender and are referred to as 'he' or 'she'. There is also no gender neutral term equivalent to 'parent'. So what else could they use to refer to God?

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why do ppl think god exists? where is the proof where is the picture where is he why doesnt he show up,i dont belive in god becouse i know that the universe became with math and chemistry,and humans evolved from microbes that landed on earth billions of years ago? so where is this god?where did he came from? how did he appear in the first place? anyone got an answer?

Okay, how about this; with all your math and chemistry, where did the universe come from? What existed the moment before the big bang? Scientists discussing such matters are acting on just as much faith as priests and rabbis.

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...(tldr deleted)
cheap rip off from an article on wikihow, but it sounds very rational to me.

Yes, the probability of life evolving from scratch is freakishly low. On the other hand, there are an estimated 9 billion trillion stars stars in the observable universe, which means that there are probably, if not trillions, of planets with the necessary conditions for life, which gives plenty of room for freakishly low probabilities of events to occur.

You may ask yourself "But what are the chances of such an unlikely series of things to happen to lead to the point where we're having this discussion?" The answer to that, of course, is that the only way that we could have this discussion is if those events had occurred, thus making it retroactively possible.

Ridg3 · #**164** 07-20-2010, 12:27 AM

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What existed the moment before the big bang? Scientists discussing such matters are acting on just as much faith as priests and rabbis.

The big flash, perhaps?

***Nate*** · #**165** 07-20-2010, 02:55 AM

Thankyou for proving my point with your 'perhaps'.

MarsMudoken · #**166** 07-20-2010, 03:04 AM

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estimated 9 billion trillion stars stars in the observable universe

Who's the moron now!

Ridg3 · #**167** 07-20-2010, 03:10 AM

Still you.

MarsMudoken · #**168** 07-20-2010, 04:07 AM

Okay, fine, but who's ALSO a moron now!

Ridg3 · #**169** 07-20-2010, 04:14 AM

Only you.

MarsMudoken · #**170** 07-20-2010, 04:16 AM

...who's stupid now?

Havoc · #**171** 07-20-2010, 04:58 AM

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Okay, how about this; with all your math and chemistry, where did the universe come from? What existed the moment before the big bang? Scientists discussing such matters are acting on just as much faith as priests and rabbis.

I think the difference between religion and science is that when religion assumes something it is perceived as fact, sometimes even when it's been directly contradicted.

When science makes an assumption it's a theory, a starting point to work from which can change as evidence becomes available.

In short, scientists will gladly change their perspective on things when provided with proper evidence. Religious people will fight you to the death to convince you that the evidence is wrong when you show it to them.

Also, as for things being able to evolve into what we are now. Consider that, like Nate said, there are billions of stars and planets in the universe. In fact, I believe that a few hundred lightyears away they recently found a planet that's almost identical to earth and which, in theory, could sustain the same lifeforms we have here.

Now consider that the universe, with all it's planets, suns, stars is billions of years old and will take billions more years to collapse on itself (which scientists believe will eventually happen). If you would draw out the timeline of the universe, in all those billions of years our entire planet has only been around for about 4 billion years. Life didn't start here until a billion years later. If you consider that the universe is hundreds, if not thousands of billions of years old, we are only a speck on the timeline of the universe. Even if the planet takes another few million years to die and explode, we will never have been more than a glimpse in the timeline of the universe. A coincidence of trillions of factors being just right at just the right time.

When you consider all that you can come to the conclusion that there is no reason we are here. There is no meaning of life. We're just here, by sheer 1 in a trillion billion million chance. Nothing more. And when you think about that, I can understand why people want to have a god. Something that gives them the feeling they are here for a reason. Because if you think too much into being here for no reason at all, it can be pretty damn depressing.

T-nex · #**172** 07-20-2010, 05:16 AM

Such is life... Enjoy it while you have it.Iit wont matter anyway. Once you're dead, you're dead. Unless by sheer coincidence, there actually is something after death. hey... It's a small chance, but life happened too, right?

Havoc · #**173** 07-20-2010, 05:21 AM

Life is complicated. We don't know much more about life beyond 'it has a physical form and it is self aware'. For all we know we do have a soul that keeps living on when our body dies, guess we'll never know until one of those souls finds a way to communicate with the living world.

T-nex · #**174** 07-20-2010, 05:23 AM

Perhaps... Perhaps we're only half alive too. Or maybe true sentience is even more sentient than we are... Shit.. My brain will explode.

***Nate*** · #**175** 07-20-2010, 05:43 AM

Or perhaps we're all actually dead and this is actually the afterlife...

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If you consider that the universe is hundreds, if not thousands of billions of years old

Or, you know, 13.75 ±0.17 billion years old

Bullet Magnet · #**176** 07-20-2010, 05:45 AM

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Okay, how about this; with all your math and chemistry, where did the universe come from? What existed the moment before the big bang? Scientists discussing such matters are acting on just as much faith as priests and rabbis.

Except that they aren't, they're using cosmological and subatomic observations to create models in an attempt to explain it, and aren't claiming to have an answer yet. It's much more useful than proclaiming it to be unknowable and teaching that as wisdom.

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who said i am trying to convert someone?
i am just making my beliefs clear

@ T-nex: no HE is a HE , as HE reffered to HIMself in quar'aan.

@ Havoc: no it's very rational... (i am lazy so i'll just pick some parts from a wikihow page ^^)
look for life where it has no known cause, no design and no plan. Life is an action, and an action needs a cause. Would you expect life without a cause or plan? Is there much probability?

If the universe were created by chance (without intelligence), then what power does time and chance have? Chance has no creative ability, since it is just a concept of ratios; probability has no power; it is merely a number like: zero or infinitesimally small, or 99.9%. So, if there were no cytoplasmic life in billions (thousands of millions) of years, then what chance is there of success by adding similarly 1000s of millions of years still without a cause, design or plan and so to form reproductive living cells.
Do you feel that lucky? So did mother nature get so lucky that she created life without a plan, without sterile lab conditions and with no previously existing organic materials?

Life comes from life. That is all we know: scientifically it has not been proven beyond a doubt how cells began. No, DNA and RNA couldn't make it very far with no cell in which to operate, no organelles, no nucleus, no food, no biological energy, no organization? Having no place or way for life to begin is as good as saying it could not reasonably happen...

Poof! and "Oh, it was just there." makes no sense at all. So what if DNA took millions of years to develop, then it still needed an enclosed environ (a cell) and organelles (cell parts)... But if there is a God - an all powerful God would have the power to create something out of nothing, not because of any preconceived or preeminent matter, but because the all powerful God can do that by definition!

could static electricity or an electrical flash of lightning like an explosion near a puddle such as a tidal pool cause the initializing of mitochondrial energy creation, "purposeless" living cells that would then automatically begin digestion, and of course reproduction, to somehow achieve "genetic programming of uniqueness" but still be the same in multitudes of meaningful ways, programming of instincts and immune system, healing of injuries, nerves, nerves cooperating, nerves communicating, autonomic life processes (automated) like respiration, hundreds or millions of interrelated reactions and systems,...

Look at how nature breaks down things and think about whether creation of life seems natural! The 2nd. Law of Thermodynamics states that all things are wearing down. Nature is about breaking down rocks to pebbles and to sand, dissolving, oxidizing, mineral deposits, poison, corrosion, erosion, and rot. If that is true, then how could evolution be true? Evolution is still a theory (even after almost 200 years), meaning that is is not proven, and it can't be proven because it contradicts a law. God can override laws as he wishes, after all, He made laws and is not bound by them.

cheap rip off from an article on wikihow, but it sounds very rational to me.

Every single one of your arguments is known to be invalid. Insofar as it is possible to know anything, we know that that is unadulterated bollocks.

T-nex · #**177** 07-20-2010, 05:49 AM

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Or perhaps we're all actually dead and this is actually the afterlife...

.... *head explodes* ...

I actually enjoy philosophizing about life. But I suspect it's what made me such a nihilist in the first place. I truly believe there's no purpose in life, which is why I also don't much about suicide.

I see it like this: Life is a big gray, pointless haze... Kind of like a game. Once you're done playing that game it actually doesn't matter, cos it's done, and chances are that you wont even play it again after game over/end.

However, if it's a good game, you do wanna keep playing. Even if it's kinda pointless in the end.

Same with life. If there are things that make you happy in life, it's like getting really good ice cream. If the ice cream is really incredibly tasty, you think: "Well... I guess I could go on and eat some more ice cream. This is pleasurable."

But the result is always the same: We die at some point, and after that... either something happens... Or nothing happens at all, in which case our pleasurable and miserable moments wont matter at all anymore.
Whether you were a king, or a homeless drunk, it still wont matter. You're dead, you cant take pleasure/displeasure in your life after death.

x_x I need to stop thinking! Ima take some happy pills now.

Lord Stanley · #**178** 07-20-2010, 06:08 AM

The famous scientist Blaise Pascal spent several days wondering whether he should become an atheist or a Christian, and looked at it from a pragmatic standpoint. In the end, he decided thus:

If he became an atheist and atheism was right, he would spend his whole life fighting against the idea of God and die and gain nothing.

If he became a Christian and Christianity was right, he would spend his whole life fighting for God and die and gain everlasting glory in paradise.

That's why, even if God does not exist, isn't it better to live life with the hope of something to come afterward, instead of just trying to convince people that there is really nothing? I'm a Christian, and proud of it.

OANST · #**179** 07-20-2010, 06:12 AM

I wish that I hadn't started this conversation. It's become unbelievably tedious to read.

T-nex · #**180** 07-20-2010, 06:12 AM

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The famous scientist Blaise Pascal spent several days wondering whether he should become an atheist or a Christian, and looked at it from a pragmatic standpoint. In the end, he decided thus:

If he became an atheist and atheism was right, he would spend his whole life fighting against the idea of God and die and gain nothing.

If he became a Christian and Christianity was right, he would spend his whole life fighting for God and die and gain everlasting glory in paradise.

That's why, even if God does not exist, isn't it better to live life with the hope of something to come afterward, instead of just trying to convince people that there is really nothing? I'm a Christian, and proud of it.

Incorrect!! Wanna know why?

What of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Voodoo and ALL of the other many relgions?? Many of which have the same message as Christianity.

If you choose Christianity, There is only a TINY slight mini chance that you're going to heaven. It's so small, it's not even worth it.

I'd say, spend your days actually making something of yourself in THIS life, and become smart... become a good person. Do not be willfully ignorant. That's really sad.