Wicca -

shaman · #31 01-27-2009, 12:18 PM

i dont think anyone would call a roman farmer a pagan nowadays simply for being a roman farmer...

i am pretty sure the term has been redefined several times by centuries of who knows what.

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This isn't what we were arguing about. I just thought it would be a fun diversion to tell you the literal meaning of the word.

wait ... then what are we aurguing about? sorry short attention span.

OANST · #32 01-27-2009, 12:21 PM

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wait ... then what are we aurguing about? sorry short attention span.

The validity of your belief system and how you came to own it. To be clear:

I don't think it is and think it's a bandwagon thing.

You think it is and suggest that this is a well researched belief.

shaman · #33 01-27-2009, 12:27 PM

oh yeah right.

i will tell you i do have pagan friends, like two. But i resent the idea that it is a "bandwagon thing" as you put it. Don't worry, i would be able to know whether or not i am lying to myself, i think that lying to yourself stops you from growing as a person so i would always go out of my way to not do it.

also, the same thing could happen to lots of people. A person could become christian just because of peer pressure or acceptance or attention or whatever you call it.

arn't people supposed to be putting down their prejudices? or are you just watching me and OANST verbilly wrestle each other?

shaman

OANST · #34 01-27-2009, 12:31 PM

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oh yeah right.

i will tell you i do have pagan friends, like two. But i resent the idea that it is a "bandwagon thing" as you put it. Don't worry, i would be able to know whether or not i am lying to myself, i think that lying to yourself stops you from growing as a person so i would always go out of my way to not do it.

also, the same thing could happen to lots of people. A person could become christian just because of peer pressure or acceptance or attention or whatever you call it.

arn't people supposed to be putting down their prejudices? or are you just watching me and OANST verbilly wretle each other?

shaman

Of course it could. However, we live in a culture that pushes that particular belief as the absolute truth every fucking day. It's much easier for a weak minded person to be taken in by that kind of propaganda. And I think that we deceive ourselves far more often than we deceive others. I'm fairly certain that given some serious thought and a bit of time you will agree with me.

OddjobAbe · #35 01-27-2009, 12:38 PM

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arn't people supposed to be putting down their prejudices? or are you just watching me and OANST verbilly wrestle each other?

shaman

Yes. Yes we are, and we're loving it.

shaman · #36 01-27-2009, 12:39 PM

i do agree that people can be taken in far more easily by christianity than anything else in our society. but i still stand by what i beleive in, i think i have given this a serious bit of thought and can't see myself thinking "actually i don't believe in this".

thanks

shaman.

OANST · #37 01-27-2009, 12:43 PM

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i do agree that people can be taken in far more easily by christianity than anything elso in our society. but i still stand by what i beleive in, i think i have given this a serious bit of thought and can't see myself thinking "actually i don't believe in this".

thanks

shaman.

Have you been visited and impregnated by the goddess? What possible reason could you have for believing it?

shaman · #38 01-27-2009, 01:03 PM

well for instace, i beleive that living things have a soul (humans were not the first life form on this planet, and they are not the first life form to behave like they have a soul, just look at the way animals behave)

for reasons i can't explain (call it spiritual intuition or reasoning that cannot be put into words over the net) i do belive that celestial bodies have a spirit as well, they are after all some of the oldest things in existence and there is no reason why they can't have been the first beings.

since i have explained why that i believe the natural world has a soul, it should be easy to understand why it deserves our respect and protection, which is why wicca works with the rythems and tides of nature, we celebrate its cycles.

OANST you may find this a little hard to understand yourself but wicca is largely a PERSONAL
THING, so um ... yer. NOW LET THIS BE THE END OF IT.

OANST · #39 01-27-2009, 01:21 PM

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OANST you may find this a little hard to understand yourself but wicca is largely a PERSONAL
THING, so um ... yer. NOW LET THIS BE THE END OF IT.

Can't do that. If you keep replying I will continue debating.

:

well for instace, i beleive that living things have a soul (humans were not the first life form on this planet, and they are not the first life form to behave like they have a soul, just look at the way animals behave)

for reasons i can't explain (call it spiritual intuition or reasoning that cannot be put into words over the net) i do belive that celestial bodies have a spirit as well, they are after all some of the oldest things in existence and there is no reason why they can't have been the first beings.

since i have explained why that i believe the natural world has a soul, it should be easy to understand why it deserves our respect and protection, which is why wicca works with the rythems and tides of nature, we celebrate its cycles.

How can you possibly try to qualify the actions of an animal based on the assumption of an invisible inner essence? I don't even know how to argue against this. You may actually be too far gone.

ssilbyma · #40 01-27-2009, 01:22 PM

from i know wicca isn't all about witch craft etc and as shaman has said its more about a personal thing... personally i'm not a wiccan but i do have a few friends who are and i do not know all that its about, im just saying that theres more to it than spells and stuff...

OANST · #41 01-27-2009, 01:31 PM

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from i know wicca isn't all about witch craft etc and as shaman has said its more about a personal thing... personally i'm not a wiccan but i do have a few friends who are and i do not know all that its about, im just saying that theres more to it than spells and stuff...

If you think that it isn't about/doesn't incorporate witchcraft then you are extraordinarily mistaken and should not be talking to me.

One other thing.

Let's say that the planets do have souls and are conscious. What possible interest could they have in us other than saying "STOP DOING THAT TO MY SISTER! STOP IT!"?

ssilbyma · #42 01-27-2009, 01:38 PM

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If you think that it isn't about/doesn't incorporate witchcraft then you are extraordinarily mistaken and should not be talking to me.

One other thing.

Let's say that the planets do have souls and are conscious. What possible interest could they have in us other than saying "STOP DOING THAT TO MY SISTER! STOP IT!"?

i never said i believed in it ... all i really meant was, peoples beliefs and religions shouldn't be debated no matter how unrealistic they seem to be!!

OANST · #43 01-27-2009, 01:39 PM

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i never said i believed in it ... all i really meant was, peoples beliefs and religions shouldn't be debated no matter how unrealistic they seem to be!!

I also never said that you believed in it. The second half of my post was directed at Shaman.

Also, why the fuck not?

Edit: You should be thanking me. I just made this place interesting again. Hooray for my feelings of self-importance!

ssilbyma · #44 01-27-2009, 01:45 PM

because peoples beliefs are personal and it isn't a type of thing that should be debated... people believe what they wanna believe and its not fair if some one critisizes there beliefs just because they themselves do not believe in it...
but i guess that your not gonna stop ay?? lol

OANST · #45 01-27-2009, 01:47 PM

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because peoples beliefs are personal and it isn't a type of thing that should be debated... people believe what they wanna believe and its not fair if some one critisizes there beliefs just because they themselves do not believe in it...
but i guess that your not gonna stop ay?? lol

This makes no sense. This is a forum. It is a place that is designed with the exact purpose of an exchange of ideas. If someone doesn't wish to debate their beliefs with me then I recommend that they DON'T FUCKING DEBATE THEIR BELIEFS WITH ME. It's that simple.

Also, it isn't just that I don't believe what they do. I find their beliefs to be similar to a child going to bed at night with fantasies of being Gandalf running through it's head. Except it isn't cute anymore.

***Nate*** · #46 01-27-2009, 03:06 PM

From here: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...ern-witchcraft

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Dear Cecil:

What is the origin of the Wiccan religion? Most Wiccans you talk to say the religion is an extension of ancient, matriarchal earth worship and will attempt to turn you into a frog if you disagree. Others point to a descendancy from medieval healers and claim close kinship with all those who were burnt at the stake for allegedly conjuring up spirits, riding on brooms (there's that again), and otherwise hobnobbing with demons.

However, some say Wicca as currently practiced is a modern invention and point to the works of a follower of Aleister Crowley, one Gerald Gardner, as the actual starting point of this religion. At least these people don't attempt to magically mess with your personal space.

To my mind, linking modern Wicca with ancient paganism is like trying to assert that modern Freemasonry got its start with the building of Solomon's temple, but that's just me. Maybe you can shed some light. Patrick Malone, via AOL

—

Dear Patrick:

The nice thing about writing for the alternative press is that you don't have to cover a lot of boring village board meetings. However, you do occasionally get affronted letters from witches. Not that riling the Wiccans was originally my plan. It's just that every time I discuss witches in less than effusive terms, as I did a few weeks ago, I hear from folks who act like I just insulted their relatives. The assumption is that modern pagans (neopagans, Wiccans, witches--take your pick) are linear descendants of medieval witches. Some take it farther and say Wicca directly descends--in the sense of being handed down continuously from one generation to the next--from the pre-Christian, pan- or polytheistic "old religion" that was driven underground but never completely destroyed by the papist upstarts.

To put it as kindly as I can, this be wack, Jack. There is no evidence for historical continuity between the pagan religious practices of antiquity (or even the Middle Ages) and modern Wicca. On the contrary, there's lots of evidence that Wicca is a modern invention. What's more, this is cheerfully conceded by many leading Wiccans, who point to the roll-your-own character of much Wiccan ritual as one of its great strengths.

Since my credibility on this score has been called into question, let me turn to the work of the respected Wiccan writer Margot Adler. In Drawing Down the Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess-Worshippers, and Other Pagans in America Today (1979), Adler writes, "The Wiccan revival starts with a myth, [that] Witchcraft is a religion that dates back to paleolithic times, to the worship of the god of the hunt and the goddess of fertility. . . . Today most revivalist Witches in North America accept the universal Old Religion more as metaphor than as literal reality--a spiritual truth more than a geographic one."

So how did 20th-century Wicca get started? Power of the pen, babe. According to Adler, several writers helped stir public interest in witchcraft. One was Margaret Murray, who published The Witch-Cult in Western Europe (1921) and several more books. Murray argued that medieval witches practiced an ancient fertility religion she called the Dianic cult. While this was obviously a seminal idea, as it were, Adler says that "most scholars today view her work as filled with errors." An even more controversial figure is Gerald Gardner, an amateur anthropologist and folklorist who claimed he'd been initiated into a coven in 1939 and who wrote two influential books, Witchcraft Today (1954) and The Meaning of Witchcraft (1959). Among other things, he popularized the idea that witchcraft rituals ought to be conducted in the nude, a notion that titillated the masses for years. Gardner's work contained a lot of archaic-sounding ritual, some of which supposedly originated in a 16th-century "Book of Shadows." But it's been pretty well established that Gardner, who was influenced by occultists like Aleister Crowley, wrote or commissioned most of this stuff himself.

So, is Wicca a fraud? That's such a negative way of putting it. Quite a few world religions are built on shaky stories--you think God really gave Moses the Ten Commandments on tablets of stone? Many credit Gardner with giving Wicca its contemporary feminist slant, with its emphasis on the Goddess. (In Murray's account, female witches were subordinate to a male sometimes known as the Black Man.) Personally I find the "an ye harm none" stuff a bit rich, but I'm a live-and-let-live kinda guy. Just don't go putting on airs.

— Cecil Adams

OANST · #47 01-27-2009, 03:14 PM

You mods are so damn helpful.

And the new thread name made me giggle.

Bullet Magnet · #48 01-27-2009, 03:32 PM

That's Nate. Casually uninvolved yet cutting to the thick of it.

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all i really meant was, peoples beliefs and religions shouldn't be debated no matter how unrealistic they seem to be!!

:

because peoples beliefs are personal and it isn't a type of thing that should be debated... people believe what they wanna believe and its not fair if some one critisizes there beliefs just because they themselves do not believe in it...

The fact that they are people's beliefs should not grant them amnesty from being openly and critically evaluated. In fact, there are few better reasons to do so. This concept that religion is beyond reproach by virtue of... whatever, is a ridiculous one that is fostered and encouraged in our society by the religious because it is a very effective defence against the onslaught of critical thinking.

We don't criticise them simply because they're not ours, we criticise them based on their own merits.

Let's just hope we have our facts straight first.

Venks · #49 01-27-2009, 03:34 PM

Posted this in Prejudice thread as well(Didn't see this thread at first):

As for what OANST is saying he is completely right about discussing how he feels about these things. Like he said this place is a forum for discussing things. If shaman doesn't want to discuss it he doesn't have to.
Personally I know two wiccans. One being my first crush. She was a christian who decided praying to Satan was much cooler and she carried around this book of magic spells. She rebelled against everything and got me into a lot of trouble. So uh yeah... that speaks for itself.
The other wiccan happens to be my close friend who has problems with man fluids being dispersed onto a woman's face. She happens to be a catholic who loves her parents very much and doesn't seem to want to rebel. However she prays to Satan and believes through meditation she can do magic. I've asked her to show me sometime, but we havn't seem to gotten around to that.

@ ssilbyma:

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i never said i believed in it ... all i really meant was, peoples beliefs and religions shouldn't be debated no matter how unrealistic they seem to be!!

Scientology ssilbyma... scientology.

Bullet Magnet · #50 01-27-2009, 03:36 PM

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Scientology ssilbyma... scientology.

Dammit, Venks, quit saying that. It's looks like typo diarrhoea.

OANST · #51 01-27-2009, 03:37 PM

Praying to Satan and practicing Wicca are two very different things but I think they both originate from the same feelings of alienation from one's family and their creed.

Venks · #52 01-27-2009, 03:40 PM

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Praying to Satan and practicing Wicca are two very different things but I think they both originate from the same feelings of alienation from one's family and their creed.

Yeah I know. They both claimed to be 'wiccan.' But they both prayed to Satan. I was like, "... I thought Wiccans were all about the seasons?" One responded, "Well I like those too, but I gotta show respect to the big man down stairs."

Bullet Magnet · #53 01-27-2009, 03:43 PM

Sounds like they were fucking around more than usual.

OANST · #54 01-27-2009, 03:52 PM

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Let's just hope we have our facts straight first.

We (meaning I) have our (meaning my) facts straight. But thanks for the concern.

Venks · #55 01-27-2009, 03:57 PM

Personally I really like the whole idea of respecting the earth and celebrating the seasons. It's due to this that I find littering just as bad as rape.

Pilot · #56 01-27-2009, 03:58 PM

You guys... jesus...... I mean, .....you guys....

Does anyone find it interesting that 'Pan,' the little horned flute playing character from Wiccan idology is so similar to the Christian's depiction of the Devil?

Why is that?

The way I see it, about the time that the Christian religion was invented, all other religions were, by the intent of the Christians, doomed to be snuffed out. One of the methods the Christians used to persecute and thus attempt to invalidate all other religions was their persecution of the long standing Wicca, which is largely a nature-based religion. Their depiction of the devil is an intentional distortion of Wicca's Pan.

Christianity has had a long and profitable career of persecution.

Venks · #57 01-27-2009, 04:03 PM

:

You guys... jesus...... I mean, .....you guys....

Does anyone find it interesting that 'Pan,' the little horned flute playing character from Wiccan idology is so similar to the Christian's depiction of the Devil?

Why is that?

The way I see it, about the time that the Christian religion was invented, all other religions were, by the intent of the Christians, doomed to be snuffed out. One of the methods the Christians used to persecute and thus attempt to invalidate all other religions was their persecution of the long standing Wicca, which is largely a nature-based religion. Their depiction of the devil is an intentional distortion of Wicca's Pan.

Christianity has had a long and profitable career of persecution.

Stealing this Pan's guy appearance for Satan eh? Sounds like Christians.
*uses telemarketer's voice*
Join Christ! We got horned dudes! Like celebrating winter's and spring's solstice? Wait till you hear about Christmas and Easter! 100% original ideas.

***Nate*** · #58 01-27-2009, 04:08 PM

As an addendum to my last post... I knew a guy once who was a Wiccan. Whilst he was fully aware of its modern heritage, he treated its belief system seriously and allowed it to guide the way he approached the world, in terms of respect for other people and Planet Earth. And that I respect.

Bullet Magnet · #59 01-27-2009, 04:59 PM

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We (meaning I) have our (meaning my) facts straight. But thanks for the concern.

Don't assume I always mean other people when I highlight the possibility/probability of ignorance.

Mac Sirloin · #60 01-27-2009, 05:00 PM

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Personally I really like the whole idea of respecting the earth and celebrating the seasons. It's due to this that I find littering just as bad as rape.

What the fuck are you even talking about? That's the most retarded half baked vegan shittop bullshit I've ever read.

You incredible shitcocks. All of you. Everyone involved in this discussion, much as I like OANST and agree with his methods of making sure the dumbfucks are scolded, you have to accept that sometimes said dumbfucks are unscoldable. Therein, they'll throw a shitfit any chance they get.

Here's a rule that everyone can follow: If someone has different beliefs than you, and acts like a dick, punch them in theirs. If they are completely reasonable and open like EVERYONE should be (but, you know, actually isn't) then you should be just as reasonable and open. Of course you can start a discussion about their beliefs without being hostile, but in that same vein, don't get all worked up if someone thinks that Wicca is retarded. IF you're a cool guy and Wiccan, that's a trait, not a flaw.