Oddworld changed

[Beastman59]

I'm laying in bed thinking to myself why oddworld games after AE disinterested me. I played them and just didn't like them as much as I liked the first 2 games. And after much thinking I think I found out why. I feel like in AO and AE there was always this mystery to the game that really grabbed my interest. I could never quite place that feeling I had when playing it. Like I was only getting a glimpse at this strange world and there was a lot more to it that was left up to my imagination. Everything seemed and looked so real. And in the games that followed them, MO an SW, that mystery and excitement was gone. It felt like everything was all out in the open and no more mysteries were left to solve. The new characters all looked like detailed cartoon characters instead of realistic looking creatures. I wasn't the same, and I don't like it. Idk, maybe I'm the only one here that feels like this... Anybody else get this feeling?

[Fil The Slig]

yes.I.I feel so.

[Jordan]

Yes, I do admit AO and AE are by far the best and most preferred Oddworld games of the series, and they're my favourite all the way. MO didn't give that Oddworldian feel like AO and AE gave, it was sort of all factory-based, and I like to see a bit of nature once in a while. SW, was beautiful, and did give that feel to it, but the gameplay didn't suit at all. I love all the Oddworld games, but I want to see more beauty in future.

[Fuzzle Guy]

Oddworld AO and AE are realisitc, both in graphics and sound effects. Oddworld MO is very cartoon like. But stranger, I think is more like the first two games for the realism, than it is like MO.

[OddYouko]

I also have that feeling. I only have AO and AE but I've seen some clips of MO and SW and do agree with you guys that AO and AE are more realistic. But I like AO a little more then AE cause of it's dark, realistic, movie-like scenes..plus it was the first game in the making of the fives games thing. IMO

[Chubfish]

I prefered AO and AE to MO, probably cause I found them a lot more challenging.

[Alcar]

I believe the vast majority of people who have played AO, AE and MO will agree that AO and AE are superior. We all know what a colossal failure MO was - Lorne was very disappointed with it as well.

However, in it's own right, it wasn't bad. It just felt like I was playing Banjo Kazooie without the vibrant rainbow colourings.*

*I love BK for the record.

Alcar...

[Wings of Fire]

I believe the vast majority of people who have played AO, AE and MO will agree that AO and AE are superior. We all know what a colossal failure MO was - Lorne was very disappointed with it as well.

However, in it's own right, it wasn't bad. It just felt like I was playing Banjo Kazooie without the vibrant rainbow colourings.*

*I love BK for the record.

Alcar...

A bit like playing Banjo Tooie then? Why do sequels very rarely meet expectations?

[Nate]

I notice that few people have mentioned SW. I think that game brought back much of the beauty and wonder into the Oddworld landscape. Sure, it wasn't quite as detailed as the Abe games, but it's still one of the most realistic and beautiful 3d games I've ever seen.

[Xavier]

I agree, you shouldn't compare AO and AE to MO, but to SW...

MO wasn't exactly OWI's masterpiece

[AbesGenerationX]

Yes... i think Munch's Oddysee is boring...

[Wings of Fire]

MO wasn't exactly OWI's masterpiece

Another reason to get an X-box dead then.

So are Viva Pinata, Fable and Strangers Wrath worth the price of a a 360?

[Xavier]

You can't play stranger on the 360, you will probably never will

[Wings of Fire]

Things like this are why I vehemently hate Microsoft. Sigh I guess its just the movies for me then.

[Stranger90]

That's why I (and probably you) must buy an used Xbox rather than buying a 360 (they have got lots of problem: such as the fantomatik "ring of death" and you and probably someone esle don't really wanna to send Microsoft this piece of crap and wait 3 or 4 months to get it repaired...) I don't want to offence any Microsoft fan, because also the Xbox have got his merit! But I read too many problems in many forums and I figured out that it's better to wait that its price will reduce more (eh eh, 300€ in Italy aren't potatoes)! For now an normal Xbox is fine... I'll just wait the future for see if there are any improvements on prices!

[T-nex]

Ok here's the thing.... Ever since AO and AE was made, some of the key member's in the OWI team left. Like Farzad. Much of what you see in AO and AE was based on Farzad's designs. Which is why many of you feel that some of the the oddworldiness is gone. His designs were truly unique, and that'd probably what you were feeling in those game. Steven Olds is a pretty good designer too.

But on top of that, in MO, they decided to change the unique, environmental, oddworldy musik to..... simply techno rave. How can they go that deep? Dunno. But it was a failure. IMO. The same soundtrack over and over and over, in every single level. What happened to the cool natural sound effects? The strange percussion that the previous games delivered? That was what made oddworld cool too.

Also, me and a friend agreed that Lorne probably gave Sherry too much power or whatever. The darkness and the creepyness has left oddworld. It's not allowed to be gory or vulgar anymore... No.... Every hop needs a kidsy "Boing" sound, and everything needs to look cartoony. Bad choice people. Whatever oddworld stood for, it's gone.

Earlier Lorne was all about saving environments and anti-materialism or whatever. But he has come to contradict himself now.

SW was an ok game. But in no way can I say that it was part of oddworld.... Seriously, it didn't give me that feeling. Yea it was beautiful, and had many different environments. But so many other games are. What I hated the most was... The clakkers. THe ugliest, cartooniest and stupidest design ever. Why chickens?! Why??
Also the grubbs had a very boring design too.

The outlaws were a disappointment too. Why has a whole race called Outlaws? Would have been cooler if they had many different races.

SW was an ok game. I enjoyed playing it, and the story was thrilling. But I think they shouldn't have jumped from the Quintology. SW was only made to save OWI's poor ass.... But it failed too. Didn't even sell as much as MO. Of course that was because of AE.

But overall. I don't feel OWI are staying true to themselves.

And now they are working on Citizen Siege, right? And it's all based on Raymond's designs. Nothing good could come out of this. Raymond's my least favorite designer.


End of rant.

[Alcar]

You can't play stranger on the 360, you will probably never will

Which means my copy of Stranger's Wrath is now worth more on eBay, say, in ten years when it's become part of the Oddworld cult classics.

I can dream.

Alcar...

[T-nex]

Which means my copy of Stranger's Wrath is now worth more on eBay, say, in ten years when it's become part of the Oddworld cult classics.

I can dream.

Alcar...

You will probably be able to download it with an emulator, and 100 other XBOX games in 10 years :P

[Wil]

T‐nex, an impressive analysis, and I agree and disagree with various things. There are just a couple of things that confuse me.

Also, me and a friend agreed that Lorne probably gave Sherry too much power or whatever. The darkness and the creepyness has left oddworld.

I hated the cartooniness of Munch’s Oddysee too, but what evidence do you have to blame it on Sherry?

Earlier Lorne was all about saving environments and anti-materialism or whatever. But he has come to contradict himself now.

How has Lorne gone back on environmentalism and anti‐materialism?

As for the production designers, I’m not arguing against your opinion, but as we’ve seen in the Abe film artwork, Raymond has been using designs created by Steven Olds, who remains my favourite of the production designers. Farzad is also brilliant, but he also designed Fuzzles which are my least favourite character design. Silvio Aebischer I consider the worst character designer, having come up with Clakkerz and various other SW races (which are generally unimpressive. I know he was personally upset by the uproar the Forums had against his characters, and it was a hysterical over‐reaction, but not without reason). On the other hand, Silvio has designed Oddworld’s most characteristic and beautiful machinery, while Raymond’s artwork is rich and inspiring, perfectly suited to Oddworld.

[T-nex]

T‐nex, an impressive analysis, and I agree and disagree with various things. There are just a couple of things that confuse me.

I don't have any evidence, but as far as I understand, Sherry was suposed to keep things in line and stop things when they go too far(too creepy or whatever)... But if I misunderstood that, then I take that back.

I hated the cartooniness of Munch’s Oddysee too, but what evidence do you have to blame it on Sherry?


How has Lorne gone back on environmentalism and anti‐materialism?

Cos he turned all money hungry himself, instead of staying true to what his original plans were. There is still some, but it's just not the same. This is just an opinion though.

As for the production designers, I’m not arguing against your opinion, but as we’ve seen in the Abe film artwork, Raymond has been using designs created by Steven Olds, who remains my favourite of the production designers. Farzad is also brilliant, but he also designed Fuzzles which are my least favourite character design. Silvio Aebischer I consider the worst character designer, having come up with Clakkerz and various other SW races (which are generally unimpressive. I know he was personally upset by the uproar the Forums had against his characters, and it was a hysterical over‐reaction, but not without reason). On the other hand, Silvio has designed Oddworld’s most characteristic and beautiful machinery, while Raymond’s artwork is rich and inspiring, perfectly suited to Oddworld.

They all created some fairly nice designs and stuff, but overall they all kind of... suck compared to Farzad. But that's only when we speak of Oddworld. They are all good artists, and have great techniques. But only Farzad and Olds has so far managed to impress me with art made for oddworld.
I agree on the comment about Silvio though... I didn't like him either.

Apparently I forgot about the fuzzles. I don't get it... How does creatures with eyes popping out fit in Oddworld in any way?? :-/ That concept with cutesy creature, who have eyes too big for their head just annoys me to no end.

[MA]

i'll quote myself from a different thread;

MO came out and wasn't as nearly as good as it was gonna' be, due to being rushed and the 'big move', etc. then SW comes out. its good, but seemed totally different in itself, confusing some people including me.

this may be just my personal veiw of the saga so far, but when MO was released, i thought a lot of detail and soul had gone missing, the grim reality of Oddworld in AO & AE seemed to be turned into a farce. at times i felt like i was on an arcade machine, with the daft gameplay that becomes annoying after a while, e.g: spooce collecting.

and the creatures/environments in AO & AE worked, it seemed to make sense (the sligs, glukkons, mudokons, slogs, and the hierarchy that surrounds it all, etc).

but then you look at MO and SW, and many creatures anatomies were unrealistic, to the point were your talking to yourself trying to justify things, e.g: fuzzles movement (bouncing), anatomy (fur-ball?!). Clakker anatomy (have wings therefore no fingers, and yet use 'impossible' objects), daft (big chicken).

then there's the industrial side: recycler's & exploding barrels (boring, unrealistic, and plentiful). sligs suddenly become the wussiest creatures on Oddworld (get shot/hit about 20 times by a slig, and you survive!?). mines become the equivalent to a weak fart (i remember accidentally running into a load of mines in MO near the start, when i first played it, and not getting killed. that was the first of many: "what the fuck are they playin' at!?!"'s. 'they' being OI).
the list goes on...

overall i mainly agree with T-nex, i just hope the Oddworld films are not 'kiddy' and are a bit more dark & adult, like they should be. afterall, to a Mud, there's nothing amusing what-so-ever about being enslaved in some violent factory under the supervision of sadistic sligs. but i have a funny feeling the films wont have any violence in them (seeing as there is violence in AO & AE, making the lives of creatures on Oddworld more realistic, in a way. so that someone who knows nothing about Oddworld would watch the film(s) and not think 'this is too stupid. im off'.

*gagged*

[Bullet Magnet]

Part of it is due no end to the fact that Olds and Farzad were there from the start and had a blank slate to work with. That then cramps the style of any and every future artist aiming for the fans' universal praise. Though of course you all knew this.

Were it the other way around, things might be different. then again, the original fanbase would have been different also. "What the hell's up with these paramites? They're just so weird, not like Oddworld at all!"

Actually, I quite liked Silvio's character designs as depicted on the page, they looked far Odder and less Terran than the final models. If there were only more familiar species in SW too, the transition and contrast would have been far easier and felt less like two different worlds.

But even with Munch, I remember flicking through the strategy guide many years before I owned an XBox, looking down horrified at the Meeps and fuzzles. And the Vendos and spooce, too. There are a few characters that could be redesigned to stay true to both their original conceptions and the early Oddworld.


Another thing, although I loved the industrial levels in AO and AE, and the designs and architecture used for those same environments in MO and SW, they were my least favourite levels. For me, they were not translated into 3D that well. It was all too clean, misty and toon-gothic for me. The quick-fix that would have done it for me? Shadows. For hiding in.

[mudling]

Well I disagree, first of all, I haevn't played AE, but from what I've heard and seen in movies, the darkness was truely in AO, and AE was the turning point of OW, becoming more comical and humerious, and light.
I realy want OW to go back to the darkness where they started, and I think that's exactly what they're trying to do, expecially from what I've heard with CS, and yes, I know it's not OW releated but it's made by the same company no?
And then the mysteriousness of oddworld has always been kept in it, in MO, mainly becuase most of the planned creatures and places were cut, so there are alot of creatures mentioned by OWI that have never been seen to life, such as the Chronicillers, Kazumerz, that race with no head that carries Maggie, the queens, etc. and many places like Nolyblab and Ma'Spa that are just waiting to be explored.
SW has a few creatures out there not yet explored like the Scuba toad, but the mysteries mainly lie with the Octigi, the diserpeance of the Steef, and why stranger is different from the others, like the absence of his horns, and SW has a great many twists within the game aswell, there are many mysteries at the beginning that get explained.
And also, series change over time, it's called development, evolution, improvement, or whatever you want to call it, but if things don't change, nothing will improve, and seriously, do you want to play the same style games as AO forever, I mean, you must play other games, yet they're nothing like OW and I bet you still like them, for different reasons, and that's my main point, there are plenty of different reasons to like OW's latest games, and they are better in plenty of different reasons.
Let go of these old games, and embrace the future of oddworld! muahaha
*edit* I have to agree, I don't like the cartoony look oddworld is embracing, some may place it stylistic, but...
But then again, AO and AE had this aswell, like the "zzzzz's" of the sligs, it's just in the jump to 3d, you notice it more I guess, and with thing's like stars being inculded when people were attacked in MO and SW. And the less realistic look is becuase it's far easier to potray it when in 2d, I mean, do you know how much harder it is to potray realism in 3d.
Seriously, they were pretty realistic for the time.
Seriously, if anything's changed, it's the humour and feel and overall, the lack of darkness from AO, but I think SW tried to bring it back. Everything else is mainly due to the jump to 3D and isn't realy oddworld's fault.
I'm not against the action introduced in SW at all. but since you haven't mentioned it, I'm assuming you're not against that change.
Still, the very heart of OW remains, showing the faults of our world through exagerated characters, and the emotional journey all of the characters take.
*Edit again*
Max, I have to disagree with your on the design during all of the games, Sure, Old's and Fazard were genenious's, and I love the original characters, but I don't think the SW designs were much of a step down, SW was a change from the previous games, and therefore so should the designs, the designs of the steefs, grubs, members of the octigi family, etc. were pretty good, while I'm not too sure who designed them, and I feel they're just as good as all of the other creatures in terms of designs.
The Clakkerz on the other hand are pretty plain, as were the Wolvarks, but that's what they're meant to be, they're not meant to have alot of dept becuase of the people they represent, who have no intelligent depth, and therefore, the creatures look plain, shallow and stupid, becuase they are. I always thought they basically represent rednecks, and due to their inbreeding according to stereotypes (and stereotypes are what OW creatures are based off) they don't have much variation.
I love the Outlaws though, mainly due to their diversity, which is realy rare in any alien speacies according to my knowlledge.
And it's Lorne who has the final desicion anyway, and don't anyone try and start blaming him for the supposed "fall of oddworld" that everyone here seems to be going on about :K
Lies lies!
Sorry about the rambling, couldn't help myself

[Alf Shall Rise]

Yep, totally. I've been trying to explain this to my brother. Anyway, AO and AE were fun because they had mystery AND humor. MO was just too...say, bright for the Oddworld series compared to AO and AE. The factories in AO and AE were so dark, and fitting. The factories in MO seemed to be more...well, not Oddworld-ish. And SW was just not Oddworld to me, although it was a fun game it wasn't Oddworld. I know a big reason is that I love Abe, and Munch just didn't impress me as a "hero" for Oddworld. Stranger was a fighter, not the spirit of the Oddworld "hero" at all. I also didn't exactly like how you can fight in MO; AO's and AE's gameplay had you trying to escape superior enemies that could do damage to you, but you couldn't do damage to them. That's the real Oddworld gameplay, not a war-fest.

[skillya_glowi]

Oddworld has indeed changed a lot. Abe's Oddysee and Exoddus had a depth, a beauty to them (AO possessed much more of it than AE, though, IMO) that Munch's Oddysee was entirely without. I'll have to say one thing, though - Munch's Oddysee had the potential to be a wonderful game. I haven't played it, but I have watched all the important FMVs and I find that the Oddworld they portrayed still holds on to some of its uniqueness. The gameplay, however, from what I see, killed it. Munch was an ingeniously designed character, and the story partially had the darkness of the Oddworld conveyed through AO and AE. It's a shame that OWI went through such pains with that game and it turned out to be so much less than they were striving to make it.

Stranger's Wrath, though, is a completely different matter. I haven't played it either, but I've seen it played, and I've seen the FMVs. It looks very impressive, gameplay, graphics, story and all...but I just can't see Oddworld in it.
I've said this multiple times, but I remember Lorne saying...can't remember his exact words, but it was about Oddworld heroes not being muscle-bound and having big guns, but "chumps like you and me who live in an overwhelming and uncaring world." And then .. ta-da! They release a first-person shooter.

I agree with T-Nex, that it had a lot to do with the fact that Farzad and Olds left OWI. If I remember correctly, Steven Olds designed most of the ground basics of Abe's Oddysee, but wasn't present during production of Abe's Exoddus...Despite that, Oddworld was able to retain some of its style in AE and perhaps a tiny bit in MO. However, during production of Stranger's Wrath, Raymond Swanland led the production design team. He's a wonderful artist with an exceptional eye for detail, but his designs just somehow didn't mash with the work of Olds and Farzad.

I guess we have to accept that Abe's Oddysee and Abe's Exoddus were one-of-a-kind games, and nothing like them will be made by Oddworld Inhabitants again. It makes me really sad, because I remember Lorne saying that he already planned the story for every game in the Quintology. I suppose there never will be a Quintology...Lorne has moved on to bigger and better things, and I guess that's just the way things are.

[Nate]

It just occured to me what is the real difference between the abe games and MO. The Abe games were 2d games that felt 3d and MO was a 3d game that felt flat

It always felt like there was something going on in the backgrounds of AO/AE, like you could go back there and see more and more landscape and stuff going on. On the other hand, in MO, the areas felt like a studio backlot, all facade and nothing behind.

[OddYouko]

Yeah I agree with you Nate even though I've never played MO I watch some clips on Youtube and noticed there doesn't look like anything in the background unlike in AO and AE. But the only thing I like in MO is the moive clips because Abe's in it. xD

[Nate]

As an addendum to my previous post, I want to point out that I thought SW did a good job of recreating that feeling of depth in 3d. It wasn't perfect - the linear canyons and unsubtle attempts to stop the player from backtracking were small distractions - but the detail in the natural landscape was incredible, especially when using the scope.

[Bullet Magnet]

Yeah, but you couldn't shoot the vultures, which spoiled it for me.

[mudling]

Oh come on, everyone knows that vultures were bulet proof.
Actually, I always thought they were crows :P
And at least they were there, I mean, what would prefer, a plain old sky, or one filled with life.
I agree, I think three things realy crumbled OW, the lack of time with MO, caused by the sudden witch to xbox from the playstation 2, and the jump to 2d to 3d, and then there was the lack of publishing of SW, I mean, MO had buses in Australia dedicated to it, everyone knew about it (Funnny thing was, I was like, hang on, where have I seen that before, I had just started playing AO), and heaps of people I know still know about AO, it's just no one knew about SW, it's far better than alot of games around at it's time, but it only had a small following of fans, quite frankly, I'm surprized it was realised in AUstralia.
The lack of profits needed was probably the reason alot of people left, and why alot of others were let go, and this realy crumbled OW more, and Lorne knew the biggest industery at the time, in terms of media was movies, he himself, said that the game industery was a step down.
But OWI realy tried hard after MO, with SW, and I realy enjoyed it, and there was a rbig part of me wanting more in action in the previous games.
And I respect the amount of dept and effort they put in SW.
Sure the backtracking was missed, but they did go back into the depth Nate was talking about with the 2d games, as he said, expecially when you're go through eiry catacombs in your boat, and your see old grubb cave paintings, and then you pass through an abandoned village.
I mean seriously guys, have you no faith?