How did you reach your views on Religion?

[Havoc]

Havoc is a staunch atheist and does not (correct me on this if I am wrong, Havoc) believe in any sort of life beyond that of the present one. So, he would not believe anyone had a past life.

Honestly I do not know where the thing I have for tigers comes from. Maybe it does come from a past life or maybe I'm just hardwired this way my nature, who knows. But I'm not the kind of guy who goes blindly believing in something unless there is at least some kind of proof, any kind of proof. Since this isn't the case with any religion, I'm anti religious untill someone can show me something that will give me reasonable doubt.

[Hobo]

@looney-bin; Nothing should be immune from criticism. Not even religion. If no one criticised religion, we would still have the Thugee, Japanese Emperor cult, Aleister Crowleyism and all sorts of cults.

Interesting fact: Aleister Crowley was born very close to my parent's home. Awesome.

[Mac Sirloin]

I grew up in a heavy Catholic influence, but don't believe in a lot of what the Church teaches.

for instance, I am pro choice, but only if it was a non consensual conception, if its some trailer park cum dumpster who is getting knocked up regularly, thats her fault, and she has no right to take a life because of that.

Gay Marriage: Absolutely no problem with this, I thank Robert Sawyer for essentially opening my eyes.

'God': There is a God, or higher power, but it is genderless, and evidently not infallible.
The social Pariahs are not (by defualt) getting into Valhalla (My favorite word for Heaven, Paradise, etc...) you have to be a good person, if you are, you get happiness and infinite supplies of my beautiful face.

I mean, would you Atheists like to believe in going somewhere nice when you die, but not have to spend your lives worshipping? Well, if you're a good person, you get it.

Bad people don't get hell, just the 'Mountain' concept of Purgatory.

[OANST]

I grew up in a heavy Catholic influence, but don't believe in a lot of what the Church teaches.

for instance, I am pro choice, but only if it was a non consensual conception, if its some trailer park cum dumpster who is getting knocked up regularly, thats her fault, and she has no right to take a life because of that.

Gay Marriage: Absolutely no problem with this, I thank Robert Sawyer for essentially opening my eyes.

'God': There is a God, or higher power, but it is genderless, and evidently not infallible.
The social Pariahs are not (by defualt) getting into Valhalla (My favorite word for Heaven, Paradise, etc...) you have to be a good person, if you are, you get happiness and infinite supplies of my beautiful face.

I mean, would you Atheists like to believe in going somewhere nice when you die, but not have to spend your lives worshipping? Well, if you're a good person, you get it.

Bad people don't get hell, just the 'Mountain' concept of Purgatory.

This is a very nice concept of what god is Kastere. There is only one problem with it. It isn't backed up by any kind of scripture. This is the problem with most religions. You can't just pick and choose which parts of the religious texts you like and ignore the parts you don't. Granted, doing this makes you much easier to be around but you are doing yourself a diservice. You need to fully understand the policies of this god that you believe in. You say that you have no problem with gay marriage. That's great and as it should be. However, your god wants you to pick up a rock and beat their brains in. Have you ever eaten pork? According to your god just touching the skin of a dead pig gets you a death sentance. And nowhere in the bible does it say that you get to go to heaven if you are a good person.
I understand your desire to believe in a just and righteous god. I've been there. But there is just too much in your religious texts that lean to the contrary.

My greatest fear is that your god is real.

[Bullet Magnet]

Doesn't the New Testament say that They can't be bothered to uphold the pork rule anymore?

[OANST]

Yes. But the fact that the rule ever existed is awful enough, don't you think?

[Bullet Magnet]

Trichinosis was a big problem in Biblical times.

[OANST]

What about wearing clothing made from more than one fabric? Was chafing a huge problem as well?

[Bullet Magnet]

Nobody likes chafing.

[Mac Sirloin]

This is a very nice concept of what god is Kastere. There is only one problem with it. It isn't backed up by any kind of scripture. This is the problem with most religions. You can't just pick and choose which parts of the religious texts you like and ignore the parts you don't. Granted, doing this makes you much easier to be around but you are doing yourself a diservice. You need to fully understand the policies of this god that you believe in. You say that you have no problem with gay marriage. That's great and as it should be. However, your god wants you to pick up a rock and beat their brains in. Have you ever eaten pork? According to your god just touching the skin of a dead pig gets you a death sentance. And nowhere in the bible does it say that you get to go to heaven if you are a good person.
I understand your desire to believe in a just and righteous god. I've been there. But there is just too much in your religious texts that lean to the contrary.

My greatest fear is that your god is real.

Not God God, oh wait.

I mean, not catholicism, This is a belief system I made up, its jhust the 'Be good, ya'll!' Religion.

Also, the god has a mullet, just for lulz.

Edit: Also, this religion isn't actually a religion, if you're muslim, Catholic, Jewish, Believe in the Noprse gods, etc...

Its fine, Cooter the Mullet god (and its only son zeek, and daughter Chlamidia, for equality) are cool with it, just don't be a huge monkey dick and treat people relatively well.

If ytou lie, meh, but don't do it on a scale that really hurts people, if you steal, make up for it, do something nice, don't commit masichism in penance or anything.

Cooter loves all people, White, Black, Yella' anything.

He's up there with TFSM and The Invisible Pink Pony.

[Nate]

I saw this interesting documentary called, "The Root of All Evil", and it truly opened my eyes. I agree with all of what Richard Dawkins was saying.

The only problem is that Dawkins takes an even smaller-minded view of the world than most ultra-orthodox people. He selectively quotes various religions without actually looking at how they're practiced - the scriptures are only a small part of any religion.

As for my own views, I'd describe myself as a very accepting agnostic. I grew up in an orthodox Jewish family and went to an ultra-orthodox school but I ultimately found that I don't believe in god anymore. That said, my background has given me respect for people who do believe in god so that I see military atheists (see: Dawkins) as being just as bad as missionarising theists.

[OANST]

The only problem is that Dawkins takes an even smaller-minded view of the world than most ultra-orthodox people. He selectively quotes various religions without actually looking at how they're practiced - the scriptures are only a small part of any religion.

As for my own views, I'd describe myself as a very accepting agnostic. I grew up in an orthodox Jewish family and went to an ultra-orthodox school but I ultimately found that I don't believe in god anymore. That said, my background has given me respect for people who do believe in god so that I see military atheists (see: Dawkins) as being just as bad as missionarising theists.

I agree except that I find Military atheists to be worse. At least the religious masses that proselitize think they are doing it to save your eternal soul. The atheists just want to prove that they are the smartest in the room.

[toxicity]

I've just never seen any concrete proof of a god, therefore me no believe in a god.

[skillya_glowi]

I've been raised as an Orthodox Christian, but as I grew I kind of broke away from it, because I believe science makes sense and I feel uncomfotable with the aspect of an all-powerful being watching everything I do from the sky, you know? In the words of Modest Mouse, "Who would want to be such a control freak?"

So yeah. w00t for atheism.

[Nemo]

Believe in the Noprse gods,

"Norse Paganism" is the correct term, I think.

[Patrick Vykkers]

Asatru, actually.

[Mac Sirloin]

I don't know shit about them anyway, gents.

[Mutual Friend]

I grew up in a fairly religious background - Christian, obviously - but my spiritual and political beliefs have very little basis in what I was SUBJECTED to as a child+. Very little. This makes me an individual, y'know.

This is a very nice concept of what god is Kastere. There is only one problem with it. It isn't backed up by any kind of scripture. This is the problem with most religions. You can't just pick and choose which parts of the religious texts you like and ignore the parts you don't.

This idea holds very little weight for me. I don't know how people think scripture was compiled - religious or nay - but at various points there have been people saying what is in and what is out. People have been picking and choosing since forever.

EDIT: Spelling.

[OANST]

This idea holds very little weight for me. I don't know how people think scripture was compiled - religious or nay - but at various points there have been people saying what is in and what is out. People have been picking a choosing since forever.

You're right. I base my dislike of picking and choosing on all the orthodox christians I have known who would thump their fists up and down on the collection of canon scriptures known as the bible and pronounce it the infallible word of god. I don't understand how those people can blind themselves to much of what the bible actually says.

However, people who go into the faith understanding that much of it is compiled, translated, recompiled, thrown out, and retranslated should be able to try and find what makes sense to them.

[abe is now!]

Okay, well I don't beleive in God. Can you actually prove these so called "facts"?

Yes read the Bible, I know you don't believe at it.

[Hobo]

Abe Is Now! Do you use babelfish?

[Bullet Magnet]

I hope this is going where I think it's going.

[Havoc]

Holy crap a religious discussion and for once I have no clue what people are talking about. Freaky...

[mudling]

I'm a Christian.
It seems like there are a lot more athieists these days, but you'd be wrong to say the world is dominated by them, America is funamentally Christian, a woman who tried to change that was assasinated, and lets not forget the muslim extremists.
However, as I am aware, Athiesists is split into those who believe in science, and quite simple those who do not believe in anything, or simply do not hold an opinion on it, and do not care, as you Athiesists have pretty much explained what you are already, so owell.
I was brought up Christian, with my parents not heavy christians, but my dad obsessed with churchs.
I would say I've made up my own mind, but it's more the influences of me growing up in a christian society as to why I'm Christian.
I believe in God, because if he doesn't exist life is pointless, and I can't except us, and all of the proof of jesus, however, I do not believe the Old testament 100%, or didn't, as it contradicts the New testament, but I assumed it is made up of stories in which their meaning is true, and God changed his mind in the New testament. That being said I haven't read the bible.

Anyway, Science and religeon can go arm in arm together, and believe me, most of the Science we know is wrong, as it has been, and will be proved right in the future, but that is how science works, it gets closer and closer to the truth with our increasing technology.

I used to believe that God appeared to many groups of people, the jews, muslims, hindus, Christians, etc. but in different forms, and through the different groups different situations, they say him in different forms, or perspectives, explaining the diveristy of religeons, however, forgive me if I'm being Blasphmous, but many people and groups need religeon, and it is also a source of power.
So I'm not so sure of that theory, but I'm still christian.
*Edit* Havoc is that because no one believes in a tiger God here?
As responce for above, of course it is subjective, as the Catholics who added the pilgrimigages and limbo or whatever it is called has showed us, but I don't feel it has effected the bible so much, sure, the Old testament is favourable of Jews, and one can assume the Jews writing it made the jews stand out and such, but that's not to say it isn't true, and besides, I take the old testament for more stories and facts compared to the New testament of more solid facts.
As with proof of religeons, isn't the religeon existing alone proof, the existance of Jesus proof, and several other things I have learnt in religous studies that I cannot be bothered to go over, but there is actually a lot of proof out there. Of course, you can call a lot of things coincidences, like the Aztecs meeting the Spannish, but then that's more of a cowards way of saying "I don't know".
Why are there so many believes in religoens, and so many people who claiming to see their God/s? Are they all liars hallucients?
I didn't see the Root of All Evil, becuase from hearing about it I head it to be subjective, one sided, and he blantantly avoided addressing ideas from the other party or going into things were he would easily be proved wrong.
That being said, I respect all peoples choices of religeon, with the exceptian of satanists, which I feel is not what they actually believe in, but they do it for personal reasons like to rebel, remind me of emos which I also don't like as a group.
Other than that, if you have reasons for your religeon I can understand, I accept that, rather some of my freinds and peers at school which I can't understand their logic like, I don't believe in God becuase I have a screwed up life, and what to seem different and popular because being atheisist is so in right now, ok so noone actually says that but he meant the same thing.

[Havoc]

If god doesn't exist life is pointless. I would love to hear the logic behind that. How does one form a conclusion like that? "This person, based on something I believe in and doesn't HAVE to be true, is my entire reason for living". What, are you friendless? Did all your family die? Don't you have a pet or something? You're saying that if tommorow, science would ultimately, somehow, proove that god does not exist, you would just off yourself because you don't have anything to live for anymore?

And let me stop you right there with the proof of jezus. There is not proof of jezus. All there is proof of, is that there once lived a man named Jezus. They didn't find a note there saying he the man was the son of god and that he had special powers. Should they ever make that out from the writings on his grave then I'm with you but untill then, don't change the facts to your liking.
And why is not believing in god because your life is screwed up not a valid reason? When I was back in school at the age of 7 or so, I still half way believed in god. But since the guy was supposed to be all loving I didn't think an all loving person would put me in with an alcoholic mom who is passed out half the time so that the 7 year old has to try and get by on his own. Excuse me for hating the cunt up there in the sky for giving me hell on earth and later for simply not believing he's there. Because if he IS up there, he's not all that loving.

[Joshy]

I am a Christian and i do believe in God.

[Strike Witch]

That...is kind of offset by your sig.

ALSO:

JOSHY?!? Haven't seen you in an Age.

[mudling]

Ok, if God doesn't exist, or a God doesn't exist, or religeon doesn't exist, then what's the point of doing good, what's the point of doing anything? What's the point of existing?
Even if you make a difference in our soicety, we're eventually going to crash and fall so why bother? Why bother doing anything? Why bother working when you can robb someone? Why not? Is that wrong? But it doesn't matter because according to you God doesn't exist, so who is judging you? Your freinds and family? Then get new freinds and "family"? Or hide it from them, why should they care anyway, they do wrong things all of the time, and who are we to know what is wrong? God should know what's wrong? But according to you God doesn't exist, and according to our moral codes of acceptability, which was made under the influence of reliegon anyway, everyone is equal to us, and therefore their opinion equal, so if they think killing someone is right, who are we to say something is wrong?
What I'm trying to say is God not existing is like doing the Olympics with no referee, no coach, and no medal, the only reward is that if you win you may do something speacial, but then again, why bother winning when you could do something speacial anyway?
That is my point Havoc, it's a bit weak in some points so I'm sure you can find a way to disagree.
And on to the second part, yes there is, sorry to bore you with this but I just had a religeous exam, which all of my freinds and more thought they needed to study for and filled my mind with these sorts of things. Also I happen to pay attention in class, don't ask me why, I don't know.
But basically, several people who did not believe jesus became Eye wittnesses (Mathew who was Jesus's brother I believe, making Mary not a virgin I guess, and someone else, think it was either pual or peter). There is definate proof that there is a man that was supposed to have resurrected out of a tomb walking around afterwoulds, who was supposed to be jesus, why do we know this, because none of the people against Jesus's ressurection at the time said nothing happened, as it quite obviously did, then I could go into each of the theories and deny them, like it wasn't the wrong tomb becuase Jesus's family and freinds wouldn't make that mistake on the third day, and Jesus's real tomb would be checked, and if Jesus didn't die, it was stated that it was checked (By checking the colour of his blood, which I believe was white at the time), and if you don't believe the bible, how could a man roll over a stone, get past the guards, manage to escape, surving from obvious blood loss and wounds, aswell as starvation and lack of water, while looking healthy enough to everyone to persuade them that he had been ressurected.
And Havoc, I'm goign to say this becuase you accosed me of quite a few things, are you an idiot? If they made out the writings on his grave, then doesn't that mean he didn't ressurect and assecend to the heavens? So you're saying, if a grave says jesus ressurected when he quite obviously didn't, you'll believe in Jesus and God.
And if you mean if they find an empty Grave, he was in a tomb, and any grave that was empty was probably reused if not sold peace by peace becuase of it holding Jesus who has been ressurected, or damaged by skecptics, and even if say he did die, wouldn't the grave be empty anyway? Since he would have disintergrated by now (I know, he could of been rapped up or something, but I'm still skeptical of your idea, oh look, now I'm a skeptic)

And I find most athiests are athiests (well at least in my school anyway) because they are mad at God, and believe their life is so painful that God couldn't possibly exist.
My life is painful, but then I find I tend to pray more to God and such through my suffering, as I think my freinds are tiered of me telling them how much my life sucks everyday.
I hate to be an arswhole, but what country do you live in? (I know the answer), is it at war, are you extremly poor? Why would a missionary bother going to help a boy or girl in africa, with nothing, and convert them, if what you said was true.
People who are religous live longer, why? Becuase they have something to live for.
Becuase they have someone who will help them no matter how hard their problems are, someone who has been through worse than you (Jesus), or through pain with you, God lives through pain every day because the people he created and loved do not believe in him, do not love him, no matter what he does, even through Jesus.
I know I'm not going to convert you, I just am merely showing the other side to your arguments.
And Havoc, one more thing, science would never and could never prove the existance of God.
But Havoc, if God was one day proved to exist what would you do?
The same as you have been, because he has through Jesus, like anything proven, over the ages people are skeptical, the lock ness monster has been admitted as fraud yet people still believe.
If God was proven not to exist there would be skeptics, and there would be the same arguments reversed, but how can he be proved to not exist, that is impossible, becuase since he hasn't existed according to you, then how prove that, you can prove that something exists, easily, but you can't prove something doesn't exist.
Like say you didn't exist, you ask your realitives if they know you, they say no, you look in the government records, there is no record of you, but yet you are here, but it could be anyone else, so you are proven not to exist, yet you exist, that is my point.

Joshy, in responce to your sig, there is are severak answers.
God enables suffering because through suffering we experiance empthay for others, God doesn't help all of our problems, when we would be better off fixing it ourselves (Think of it as your brother stole your teddy bear, and you beg your parents for help), God wants to test how we react to suffering, and if we can remian faithful to him and his desicions, and therefore become like jesus (This of course is only the christian way of thinking, but I'm sure there are other versions, also, The Bible states we should become like God, Jesus, and forgive, which is also a way with dealing with suffering), God wants us to appreaciate life for what it realy is, and we can only do that knowing there is worse (Then why is there heaven, I guess the option not to go to heaven explains that), there are more I believe, but then there is of course, God knows much which we do not understand, and do not need to, like the meaning of life.
*Edit* Didn't read the end of your sig, basically agrees with the last statement, and also there are all of those statements against religon, when you can say Why not, so I do agree.

And this is the reason why I'm not doing religious studiesnext year, lol.

[OANST]

You are operating under the failed idea that morality and ethics is something exclusive to the religious. You didn't come right out and say that but it's what you meant. It's a matter of personal pride, mudling. When I go to sleep at night I don't want to be ashamed of the things I did while I was awake. Does it really matter in the long run? No. It doesn't. You are just one person among billions trying to make your way through your meaningles life until the day you finaly expire. Sure, some people will cry about your death but they'll get over it and live their lives until they expire. It's all about how you feel about yourself while you're alive. You say why not steal or rape? Well, guess what. People really do those things. And maybe they hate themselves and maybe they don't. Those of us who are self aware would have a hard time explaining to ourselves why our lives are more important than anothers, however.

[Bullet Magnet]

Ok, if God doesn't exist, or a God doesn't exist, or religion doesn't exist, then what's the point of doing good, what's the point of doing anything? What's the point of existing? etc.

Is it not far more admirable to do good for the sake of doing good, as opposed to doing good for a rewards and avoid the punishment? If we needed God to "referee" us, we would have laws that we enforced ourselves. The very existence of our legal system demonstrates that we can take care of morality ourselves.

I happen to think that morality, altruism etc. is evolutionarily advantageous (though this is not the reason I choose to practice it), and that religion is (in part) a manifestation of this imperative. I would be happy to explain the reasoning behind this argument later if requested.

Even if you make a difference in our soicety, we're eventually going to crash and fall so why bother? Why bother doing anything?

That would be a good argument, if not for the fact that we all have the drive to bother. To do things, to make our living. Instinct? Perhaps. Certainly without this drive we would be extinct (in fact, anything that did lack this drive is extinct!). You may attribute this and other factors of the human condition to God, and I have no quarrel with what you believe in, but you can't say that there can be no point to anything without It. Especially when atheists are living examples of people to don't believe in God, do not attribute themselves to His cause, yet have the same imperatives as anyone else. They could be described as experiments of human behaviour in a world without the divine. I know, I'd be entirely atheist if it weren't for an unavoidable technicality in my logic

our moral codes of acceptability, which was made under the influence of religion

As I've said before, this could easily have originated the other way around.

why bother winning when you could do something special anyway?

Doing something special is the direct cause of the success, and is easily its own reward (and stems from our competitive instinct).