9/11 Loose Change

[Havoc]

As some of you might know, I have a very big interest in the world trade center and the events of September 11th. I have written an essey in school a few years back, descriping the possible involvement of the United States goverment in the entire tragedy. This essey covered the entire Twin Tower attack, and how it could have all been staged. Evidence provided in my essey was sketchy, but would have got you thinking.

Now a few years later, with Bush still in charge of America, more and more people are starting to doubt the events that happened on September 11th. And looking at the fact, they have every reason to. The official story can be picked apart by anyone with more then two working braincells, and in some cases you can even wonder if the US goverment actualy thought people would believe stuff like this.

Still believe Bush is a saint, a good guy with the best interest for America? Try watching this movie , and be prepared to be swept away by cold hard FACTS, pretty much proving the official story the goverment send out is total bullshit. We may never know to what extend the goverment was involved, but everyone should agree after watching this, that you can't denie their involvement.

Movie (1,5 hours): 911 Loose Change 2nd Edition.

Of all the stuff that has happened, the thing I founds the most amusing, is how the FBI tried to make everyone believe that they actualy found a passport from one of the hijackers, after the Twin Towers had collapsed, while the Flight Data Recorders (black boxes) of the airplanes were nowhere to be found. That right there had be burst out in laughter.

Take your time to watch the movie. It might be long, but it's very very interesting. A must watch!

Havoc

[Biggy Bro Slig]

Still believe Bush is a saint, a good guy with the best interest for America?

Hehe...Mr. Global Warming.

I see what you're saying Havoc.

[Dark Elite_H2]

The movie is quite interesting.
I mean, the real footage of the 9/11 attacks, the theory of how a plane crashed in to the Pentagon. Especially if it was the largest airplane in the history of forever.
I mean, it's preposterous how a plane that large could disappear like that.
And...that's how far I got. It's a bit long, but very interesting, Havoc.
And no. Bush isn't the perfect-est lil' angel of a president we've had. He's done some doozies of problems.
And he doesn't resent them. He said that what he did, he isn't one bit sorry for them. In fact, he said it was for the best of the country, which I believe fully, but sometimes, we just wish he'd shut his trap.

[Havoc]

You mean invading Iraq was good for the country? Well yea ofcourse it was. With all the oil there. He actualy said right before the invasion, on television: "To all Iraqies, try not to resist, do not fight back... and do not set the oil fields on fire."

He actualy said that... I mean... moron! XD

[Dave]

Havoc, you surprise me. I never thought of you as a conspiracy theorist.
Anyhow, I'll have to watch the clip later.
For now, I'll say this: why do people outside of the US think that just because we elect someone who isn't fit to be our president to the office, every single one of us is an idiot? It's not the people's fault (directly) that the media skews the truth when it feeds it to us.
Then again, I could give two shits about politics in this country. My understanding is that lot of people don't even vote. And, like, every comedian in the country makes fun of Bush. We sure as hell don't worship the guy.
I wish I lived in Italy. That would be boss.
Side note, seems to be not entirely unrelated: I read recently that someone (forget who) said that Fox News could take a story of George Bush driving a flaming van of babies off a cliff and turn it around to sound like a liberal attack on family values (or something to that affect).

[Havoc]

I'm not realy a conspiracy theorist. I'm just a logical thinker and looking at the events of 9/11, I just know that something isn't right. And thousands of people share that opinion with me, so that doesn't realy make me a consipiracy freak anymore.
And yea, I've never realy watched Fox news, since I'm a dutchy afterall. But I hear everywhere it's all pro bush, and it's partialy thanks to them he won the elections in the first place.

[metroixer]

You raise a strong point Havoc. I remember looking at old topics and seeing you "9/11....Staged?" topic and I agree with you on a lot of facts. Good job mounsier tiger.

[Dave]

Okay, Havoc.
I'm totally not trying to argue or prove you wrong or anything - if I didn't think you were so cool, I might get into a huge argument. But seeing as how I think you rock, and that I agree that something was wrong about the attacks (even if I'm not 100% about who did it), I feel fine making this post.
The other day I found a link to a page full of "The 10 Wackiest Conspiracy Theories." 9/11 is, naturally, on the list.
Now, the definition of a conspiracy theory, according to dictionary.com, is "A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an individual or isolated act." So, whether or not there is a ton of evidence proving you right, I think it's still called a conspiracy theory.
And yes, news sucks, not just FOX, but all news. And I don't doubt for a second that FOX News was a big factor in Bush getting elected.
I'd like to state my political stance right now:
I'm not pro-Bush. I'm not anti-Bush. I'm anti-extremists. No one has the right to try and force their beliefs on other people (I suspect this statement might raise discussion, but I'm not trying to prove anything. Ask me how I feel about something in politics and I'll tell you).
Just so we all know where I stand. I'm not on the fence, to the left, or to the right. I'm across the street, watching people yelling at each other from either side of the fence.

EDIT SUMMARY: The video did not convice me that the government did it. BUT, it did make me really wonder. I'm shocked and ashamed to say that I'm a United States citizen who more or less believed it was terrorists. But until the government comes out and says "Yeah, guys, it was just us, tee hee," I don't know.
Also, on a only-sort-of-related-note, wanna know what I recently discovered upsets me? That everyone calls United States "America." Technically speaking, the US is a country in North America. If you want to get technical-er, North America and South America are AMERICA. The United States is not two continents.

EDIT 1: I'd like to point out some things that may or may not be true about some of the quotes at the beginning of the movie you posted, Havoc. Since they are taken out of context, they are questionable...
"There were lots of warnings." That could mean there were signs of an attack, but not that someone sent Bush a letter saying "Guess what? We're gonna crash some planes into the World Trade Center on September 11. Get ready!"
"No warnings." This could mean that there were no specific warnings about where/when any attacks would be.
I also noticed that in the clips of web articles, they all say "before September 11," or "before the attack" in some way. To me, it seems that since these articles say this, it means they were written afterwards, and could potentially be rumors.
It also says that Bin Laden was recieving medical support the day before, accompanied by US government people. Or, if you read the article it shows when the narrator says this, it says that CBS news was told that this may have happened, not that it did happen, and could still be a rumor.
I sort of laughed at the description on the side: "It's the duty of every American to watch this video." Sorry, but no it isn't.
Finding no trace of the plane in the Pentagon and finding trace amounts of human remains don't seem comparable. So to say "How come they could ID victims but not find the plane?" sort of confuses me, and hits me as a senseless question. And saying it would be the first time in aviation history is stupid, too. Of course it would be. I doubt that they test how their planes would react if they blew them up. And just because something never happened before doesn't mean it can't happen.
But, while I'm not convinced it was the government's doing at the Pentagon, I'm am suspicious about what happened. Just because someone says it's true and the government is lying, that doesn't mean they're right.
The two planes allowed in the air when every other plane had to land could have been Bush trying to go somewhere, or something.
The five released frames ... Planes fly fast. Could be that the camera didn't pick up the plane in those 5 frames because it was flying too fast.
Isn't a B-52 Bomber smaller than a commercial airline plane? By like, a lot? So if one crashed into the Empire State Building, could you expect it to have similar results?
These towers that had fires and didn't collapse ... they didn't have a plane crash into them, potentially messing with the building's structure and causing the top few stories to collapse on top of them.
The comparison to detonated buildings is sketchy. To me, the video footage of the towers looked like the top section, above the impact, had fallen onto the lower part, and it collapsed from there. The other images of detonated buildings show whole building caving in at once.
I almost LOLed at this: "According to Wikipedia, one of the world's largest gold depositories was stored under the World Trade Center." Since when was Wikipedia the undeniable truth? Anyone can edit it. Then: "Rumor has it that over $160 billion in gold was stored in the World Trade Center. So where did all the gold go?" Then I realized that that was an unclear statement. Which part was the rumor, that it was there, or the amount of gold?

EDIT 2: I went and looked at the facts on that conspiracy theory page, and I have some questions for anyone who can answer. Note that I'm not trying to prove these statements wrong, I'd just like more info. My questions may come off as sarcastic, but I mean them in the most serious way.

The U.S., Israel or Iraq government orchestrated the attacks themselves.
-Why the Iraq government? If it was when this happened, wouldn't that have been not the US's doing? Because it would make no sense to say the current Iraq gov't did it, because it didn't exist in 2001. Please clarify.
The Twin Towers fell straight down, at close to free-fall speed. This is a similar characteristic of a controlled demolition. The dust cloud and its make up are considered un-characteristic of a gravity-driven collapse.
-Then again, the plane may have exploded in the building and caused it to collapse this way. I don't know, I'm not a professional. The planes didn't crash into the top floor. But they might have done enough damage for the floors above it to simply fall down and crush the building below it.
It is often pointed out that no steel building before or since the 9-11 attack has collapsed as the result of fire.
-Okay, but what about an explosion? Like, an airplane exploding? Could that do the trick?
The rubble of the Twin Towers smoldered for weeks after the collapse. This claim is meant to point out that steel could only have smoldered as a result of pre-placed explosives.
-Again, what if the plane had exploded?
Some consider photographic evidence of the plane lying on the grounds of the Pentagon to be ambiguous and unconvincing, citing a visual lack of burnt metal, human remains, passenger's luggage or seats.
-Don't know about that one.
The Pentagon was struck in a newly renovated, reinforced section. Some speculate this location, the west side of the complex, to be indicative of government involvement, noting it as an attempt to reduce casualties.
-No idea on this one, either. Though I think that at one point I had heard some hero on that plane had managed to divert it last minute. But then, things like this spawn lots of rumors.
Flight 77 was able to fly in the direction of the DC and Pentagon area for approximately 40 minutes without interception. This is thought to be unusual given the Pentagon's close proximity to Andrews Air Force Base.
-It is unusual. But I'm sure that the planes didn't hang around for 40 minutes around DC and the Pentagon. They probably had to redirect the planes, and it took 40 minutes to realize where they were headed. At least, it could have been like that.
There are claims that anti-missile batteries at the Pentagon should have intercepted Flight 77.
-Yeah, they probably should have. But they didn't. That can mean that they knew about it and let it happen, but it's also a point for them not having any clue that something was wrong.
The FBI confiscated a video, which may have captured the impact, from a nearby gas station attended by Jose Velasquez. This video has not yet been released.
Okay. But there's a shot of the impact in that video havoc posted.

[Leto]

For now, I'll say this: why do people outside of the US think that just because we elect someone who isn't fit to be our president to the office, every single one of us is an idiot? It's not the people's fault (directly) that the media skews the truth when it feeds it to us.

I agree entirely with you there, chap.

You know, as much as I like to be informed, I love to hold a certain extent of BLISSFULL IGNORANCE.

[Dave]

Blissful ignorance is one thing.
Blissful ignorance when it means other nations consider every last one of us to be retarded is another thing.

[T-nex]

I'm pretty sure no one in this thread stated that every amarican is a retard... You're brining up the subject yourself :-/

Although i do agree with you that we should be carefull not to trust these theories too much. But it seems like a nice thery anyways. I liked the video =)

[Leto]

Blissful ignorance when it means other nations consider every last one of us to be retarded is another thing.

It is indeed. My statement was pointed toward conspiracies in general.

[Havoc]

EDIT 2: I went and looked at the facts on that conspiracy theory page, and I have some questions for anyone who can answer. Note that I'm not trying to prove these statements wrong, I'd just like more info. My questions may come off as sarcastic, but I mean them in the most serious way.

1. The Twin Towers fell straight down, at close to free-fall speed. This is a similar characteristic of a controlled demolition. The dust cloud and its make up are considered un-characteristic of a gravity-driven collapse.
-Then again, the plane may have exploded in the building and caused it to collapse this way. I don't know, I'm not a professional. The planes didn't crash into the top floor. But they might have done enough damage for the floors above it to simply fall down and crush the building below it.

2. Some consider photographic evidence of the plane lying on the grounds of the Pentagon to be ambiguous and unconvincing, citing a visual lack of burnt metal, human remains, passenger's luggage or seats.
-Don't know about that one.

3. Flight 77 was able to fly in the direction of the DC and Pentagon area for approximately 40 minutes without interception. This is thought to be unusual given the Pentagon's close proximity to Andrews Air Force Base.
-It is unusual. But I'm sure that the planes didn't hang around for 40 minutes around DC and the Pentagon. They probably had to redirect the planes, and it took 40 minutes to realize where they were headed. At least, it could have been like that.

1. The explosion from the airplane would have only knocked out 3 to 4 support colloms at best, spread over multiple floors. And even though this is enough to make the top part of the building unstable with the possibility that the top part breaks off. Especialy with the south tower, there is way it could have collapsed like this because of the impact angle. The plane directly took out a support collom in the corner, and if you look at the start of the sout tower collapse you see the top of the building keel over to that corner before the entire thing goes down. The constructions underneath that would have to give away at the same to for the building to collapse like that, otherwise the top would have simply fallen off.
Also, the collapse can be very easily clarified as a controlled demolition by doing some simple math.
If you drop something from the roof of the Twin Towers, it would hit the ground in 9.1 seconds, a little more with air resistance. The Twin Towers collapsed in a record time of 10 seconds.
I have seen a documentary on this, which stated that the support collums at the damaged floors gave away, and crushed the underlaying floors one by one. First off all, all 6 support colloms gave away at the exact same time? That's highly unlikely, concidering at least 2 of them were completely unharmed.
Secondly, the Twin Towers still had at least 80-90 floors intact underneath the point of impact. Following the theory that the building crushed itself, the above weight would have to crush trough 6 massive steel support colloms, tons of re-enforced concrete and crush the elevator shafts. Even if this is remotely possible, which it isn't, it would still take a lot longer then 10 seconds for the collapse to reach ground level.

If the building was to crush 1 floor per second, the collapse had to last at least 1 minute. If it crushed 3 floors per second, the collapse would have to take around 26 seconds. To get even remotely close to the 10 second mark, the building would have had to crush 9 floors per second to end up on that mark. And that is downright impossible.

2. There simply was no plane to found anywhere near the crash site at the pentagon. It was never of photo's, never on camera footage and the plane on the radar made turns that a commercial airliner could never manage to do without shreding itself to bits.


3. Most jets from that nearby airbase had been send out on a training excercise that day, leaving only 4 or so jets at the base to protect the rest of the country. Why these jets were not scrambled at all is unknown.

Hope that answered some of your questions Dave. You pretty much answered the rest of them yourself.

[Dave]

Thank you, Havoc.
Count me among the skeptics.
It's funny, but I never gave it this much thought before. And now I'm more confused than ever. While all the evidence says that planes couldn't have caused the damage they did, I think I've been sufficiently brainwashed into believeing the US government can do no wrong.
I can't wait to get the **** out of here.
But then again ... I don't think I'll ever leave for anything more than studying a semester abroad... damn.

And T-Nex, I know I brought it up. I'm just a little bitter, I guess. While I don't know as a 100% truth that if I were to go to some other country, I'd be treated like an idiot for being from the US, I've been lead to believe this is so. And I resent the hell out of it. Just because I'm from here doesn't mean I'm for here.
Bah. I'm repeating myself.

[Nepharski]

"To all Iraqies, try not to resist, do not fight back... and do not set the oil fields on fire."

Yeah, cause without Oil, the economic situation is Iraq would be Hellish. It's thier primary source of income in the global economy.

I've seen these loose chage videos before. Is something up? I wouldn't doubt it. There's definitely something rather fishy going on somewhere, and fish, like old guests, stink after three days.

HOWEVER...

Does it go all the way up to the White House? That, I question. The nature of the American political system is one that would make any such efforts by the part of the administration futile and an utter waste of time. Besides, the number of White House employees and guests who might notice something; highly unlikey this was carried out up there under everyone's noses. I mean, make up your mind: either bush is foolish, or he's an evil genius, but he can't be both, so make a selection.

Also, we know they're coving something up...but what. I suppose paranoia dictates that whenever something is hiden, it's automatically for devious purposes, but not always. Still, I wouldn't deny CIA or FBI agendas. They've pulled similar feats before.

Regardless, That's two tyrannical regimes crushed: not a bad day's work, if I may so boldly comment.

[oddguy]

I originaly saw the Pentagon Strike Flash a couple years ago...and it really creeped me out.
http://www.freedomunderground.org/me...e/pentagon.php

I saw Loose Change a few months ago after showing my friend the Pentagon Flash. After seeing the flash he did some research on the internet and ended up finding Loose Change. We both watched the whole thing with our jaws at our feet.

It's amazing how overwhelming the evidence is in Loose Change. I honestly think everyone needs to see this movie with an open mind. Any clear thinking individual can see that there are a lot of questions that need to be answered.

-oddguy

[Havoc]

Yeah, cause without Oil, the economic situation is Iraq would be Hellish. It's thier primary source of income in the global economy.

I've seen these loose chage videos before. Is something up? I wouldn't doubt it. There's definitely something rather fishy going on somewhere, and fish, like old guests, stink after three days.

HOWEVER...

Does it go all the way up to the White House? That, I question. The nature of the American political system is one that would make any such efforts by the part of the administration futile and an utter waste of time. Besides, the number of White House employees and guests who might notice something; highly unlikey this was carried out up there under everyone's noses. I mean, make up your mind: either bush is foolish, or he's an evil genius, but he can't be both, so make a selection.

Also, we know they're coving something up...but what. I suppose paranoia dictates that whenever something is hiden, it's automatically for devious purposes, but not always. Still, I wouldn't deny CIA or FBI agendas. They've pulled similar feats before.

Regardless, That's two tyrannical regimes crushed: not a bad day's work, if I may so boldly comment.

Well yea, it questions of it goes all the way to Bush. But on the other hand I seriously doubt the FBI or the CIA can pull events of this magnitude without have 'permission' from the president. Unless ofcourse the entire country is ran by everyone but Bush, in which case you would get something like the stuff in this story series: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/106120

[Nepharski]

Well yea, it questions of it goes all the way to Bush. But on the other hand I seriously doubt the FBI or the CIA can pull events of this magnitude without have 'permission' from the president. Unless ofcourse the entire country is ran by everyone but Bush, in which case you would get something like the stuff in this story series: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/106120

The president isn't necessarily told or informed on everything that goes on during his term. To justify this, those keeping the prez. in the dark usually use the term "Plausible deniability." Just cause Bush is in charge doesn't mean there's nothing going on that he doesn't know about.

If he is somehow involved, I'd wager he's more of an unsuspecting puppet than an actual ringmaster, if you catch my drift.