Should gay couples be allowed to adopt? -

Statikk HDM · #61 11-20-2001, 08:27 PM

Pinky, isn't that a tiger on rettikk's picture? Anyway, why couldn't it be a choice? This seems like nature vs. nurture to me and as for people being destined to be gay, that's a pretty jagged pill for me to swallow. Things are never black and white and this quandry is no different. I wonder what some of the hundreds of people who DON"T POST REGULARY would say about this interesting topic.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #62 11-20-2001, 09:15 PM

:

Originally posted by Rettick:
At the moment, in certain bad schools, children would get stick for having gay parents, but this is only because people like you encourage this! And the majority of people DO NOT "want to throw up or have arguments about its ethicality at the mere mention of it", so your argument is clearly flawed.

Why are you so mean all the time?

. Nobody encourages you to do anything! Your responsible for everything you do!

Sydney · #63 11-21-2001, 03:45 AM

Pinky? Rettick isn't being mean, he's just responding to the arguments.

Have you ever heard the saying, God created homosexuals so people could identify the bigots in the world?

Statikk, you haven't presented any argument that it's not biological, only comparing homosexuals to sociopaths. The only difference between a regular homosexual and one who has been changed is that the changed one is now ashamed.

Statikk, I've already given reasons why homosexuality could not be a choice. Sexuality is a biological mechanism hardwired into us for the purpose of reproduction. To say that it can be socially instilled is extremely unlikely, for nature has already, by default determined our male/female sexuality.

I'm not sure on the specifics, but there was a study carried out a while ago on structural differences between the brains of homosexuals and heterosexuals. Female brains are known to have many "crossings" between each half of the brain, whereas males have very few. The study showed that brains in homosexual men were like the female brain, in that it had more crossings. *forgive my improper use of biological terminilogy!*

I think you'd like to dismiss the idea that homosexuality is innate because it would mean you have no justification for your prejudice.

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: Sydney ]

Cran · #64 11-21-2001, 08:13 AM

personally i think they shud b allowed...alth0 it is true that they shall b picked on but thats only by the homophobic townies etc etc Their true frends wont b like that. Also i heared that gay couples make exellent parents. As they wont preach about how bad homosexuality is like most Hetro parents.
By me...ORYON...(Unblok me plz)

Lampion · #65 11-21-2001, 09:12 AM

Congrats, folks. This discussion has been very interesting so far, and I see that nobody has lowered down the conversation into undesireable levels. I think that this subject can go throuhg several pages without being boring. Just keep going, people!

It seems that although you all are very entitled to your arguments, you're not talking about the same thing, that's why I thought I could give a suggestion:

Since we are talking about gays and homosexuals, could you all give your own definition of what homosexuality is?

For example, homosexual is aperson who fells atracted to the oposite sex, or is a person who acts/behaviour like the oposite sex, or even is a person who has phisical features of the oposite sex?

If you keep your definitions pretty much detailed, I'm sure this will contribute a lot to this discussion.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #66 11-21-2001, 03:38 PM

:

Originally posted by Sydney:
[B]Pinky? Rettick isn't being mean, he's just responding to the arguments.

Have you ever heard the saying, God created homosexuals so people could identify the bigots in the world

Ha, that's not in the bible. If God created homosexuals, then why did he make it a sin? That's contradicting what the bible explains and God's view on homosexuality.

Gluk Schmuck · #67 11-21-2001, 04:34 PM

:

Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR:
Ha, that's not in the bible. If God created homosexuals, then why did he make it a sin? That's contradicting what the bible explains and God's view on homosexuality.

1. he never said it was, it's a saying, a pretty good one at that!
2. if i had a God, she wouldn't be as homophobic as your God
(oh, BTW, Pinky, what type of Christianity are you in?)

hmm, defintion, you say?
homosexual - Having the potential to be romatically attracted to a member of your own sex.

ooo, Oryon's back! - good point

:

Originally posted by Statikk HDM:
(1) The thing you see in the genes or whatever was CHANGED to that state by their actions. (2) Just as sociopaths frontal lobes are damaged slightly and further degenerate as time goes on, so with gay's genes. (3) By the way, could you train some one out of homosexuality and lesbianism. (4) Hey, it worked for one guy's brother that i knew.

1. Changing genes after the person is born won't do anything other than cause cancer, et cetera
2. I don't like that comparison, in fact the thing about degereration is quite offensive
3. That's like training people to change their eye-colour
4. Ewww, making someone repress their emotions it sick - whoever let them do that is evil

[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Gluk Schmuck ]

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #68 11-21-2001, 04:54 PM

:

1. he never said it was, it's a saying, a pretty good one at that!
2. if i had a God, she wouldn't be as homophobic as your God
(oh, BTW, Pinky, what type of Christianity are you in?)

Did I said he said it was? No, listen next time.

It's a pretty bad saying because it's confusing and people will think that God thinks that homosexuality is okay, and people who read the bible, know that God did'nt.

And where did that saying came from?

What do you mean what type of christianity am I?

Statikk HDM · #69 11-21-2001, 07:35 PM

I read about helping people to become heterosexual in a pamphlet at a counseling center I went to for a spell( It was depression, not to be helped into becoming straight) Why is that evil? Makes perfect snse to me. Obviously homosexuality is sinfull, just browse through Leviticus 19 and you'll see what I mean. God wants us to all get help for sins that are hurting our faith and relationship with God. Homosexuality is just one of many of the sins that can and should recieve hhelp for. Vounseling was the best thing I ever did and if their are homosexuals reading this in wisconsin I would recomend getting counseling from Doctor Thomas, a great doctor and a greater man

Danny · #70 11-21-2001, 09:47 PM

And people wonder why I have such a severe dislike to Christianity... Whether or not Homosexuality is a Sin depends on your definition of Sin. If by Sin you mean something that the bible says is wrong, then you are just listening to the ravings of 2000-year-old Bigots. If by Sin you mean something that IS wrong, then would you like to give me a reason exactly why it is wrong? Particularly, how does it harm anyone else? I'll give you some examples to help:

Murder: It is wrong to Kill another person against their will because that clearly causes them harm.

Burgalry: Stealing people's stuff causes them distress, as well as a slightly lower standard of living.

Homosexuality: ?

[your turn]

Statikk HDM · #71 11-21-2001, 10:40 PM

Jesus would not INSPIRE ''bigots''(what exactly do you mean by that?!) to tell people through the bible that homosexuality is sinful. It is not what god intended sex to be,which is between two married people of the opposite sex. I here you are a strong proponent of evolution, why would evolution have people become homosexual? This seems to serve no purpose to me at all. The world is not overcrowded! See Tibet, the tabletop of the world, people could live there . Or in rainforests. Or in deserts. Or in a multitude of other places. Granted they might not be the most comfortable, but the land is obviously there. As technology further advances we will be able to tame the world, which is why god put humans here. Sex is meant to be used for procreation and the enjoyment of married heterosexual couples. God condemns homosexuality as sinful and though you might not see the way satan can tempt people through carnal desires, I do. No matter how bigoted and corny it may sound"Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve!"

Lampion · #72 11-22-2001, 01:32 AM

Love can be expressed between two people by touching, kissing, and having sexual pleasure. The idea that sexual desire is made by Satan was created by the Ocidental religions and strongly reinforced by the Catholic church during the medieval age.

Most of the oriental religions (budhism, taoism, xintoism, hinduism,...) consider sexual pleasure as a gift from God (or whoever they call God), and a way through spiritual enlightening.

Reproduction can only be achieved between two individuals of the oposite sex. Sexual pleasure don't have this limitation.

Putting aside the genetic discussion, we can still consider that homosexuality is just one part of a more complex social behavior envolving sexual relations between indiviuals of a community. Actually, this behavior is very common in the wild nature. Social animals (chipanzes, lions, deers, antilopes, elephants, just to point a few) have homosexual relationships, sometimes more solid than heterosexual ones.

That was my two cents to the discussion...

Gluk Schmuck · #73 11-22-2001, 04:46 AM

To Pinky: i meant like Catholic, COE, Puritan. <- which one are you?

:

Originally posted by Statikk HDM:
Jesus would not INSPIRE ''bigots''(what exactly do you mean by that?!) to tell people through the bible that homosexuality is sinful. It is not what god intended sex to be,which is between two married people of the opposite sex. I here you are a strong proponent of evolution, why would evolution have people become homosexual? This seems to serve no purpose to me at all. The world is not overcrowded! See Tibet, the tabletop of the world, people could live there . Or in rainforests. Or in deserts. Or in a multitude of other places. Granted they might not be the most comfortable, but the land is obviously there. As technology further advances we will be able to tame the world, which is why god put humans here. Sex is meant to be used for procreation and the enjoyment of married heterosexual couples. God condemns homosexuality as sinful and though you might not see the way satan can tempt people through carnal desires, I do. No matter how bigoted and corny it may sound"Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve!"

C'mon, why is homosexuality a sin?
And why does God condemn it?
Yes, the world is over filled with humans, why would people want to move to Tibet?

Sydney · #74 11-22-2001, 05:34 AM

I define a homosexual as someone who is primarily sexually attracted to members of one's own sex.

If we're going to turn this thread into a bible study, I have a few questions I need answered (these were originally sent to Dr. Laura, a moral crusader who uses the bible to justify her repugnance towards homosexuals):

:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses help?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Gluk Schmuck · #75 11-22-2001, 12:34 PM

lol to Syd!
were those serious?

"Do not resist one who is evil." [Matt 5:39]
if God tells you not to resist evil then why did he throw out Adam & Eve for doing what the evil serpant told them to?
Christian God = hypocrite
http://www.no-god.com/game/cmj.html
has many examples of stupid things in the bible.

glukkon_daniel · #76 11-22-2001, 12:41 PM

lol, that'll shut 'em up. Well, except for Piny who needs someone to spell out for her EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN.

Danny · #77 11-22-2001, 07:05 PM

:

Originally posted by Statikk HDM:
Jesus would not INSPIRE ''bigots''(what exactly do you mean by that?!) to tell people through the bible that homosexuality is sinful. It is not what god intended sex to be,which is between two married people of the opposite sex. I here you are a strong proponent of evolution, why would evolution have people become homosexual? This seems to serve no purpose to me at all. The world is not overcrowded! See Tibet, the tabletop of the world, people could live there . Or in rainforests. Or in deserts. Or in a multitude of other places. Granted they might not be the most comfortable, but the land is obviously there. As technology further advances we will be able to tame the world, which is why god put humans here. Sex is meant to be used for procreation and the enjoyment of married heterosexual couples. God condemns homosexuality as sinful and though you might not see the way satan can tempt people through carnal desires, I do. No matter how bigoted and corny it may sound"Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve!"

So NOT ONLY do you claim that Homosexuality is a Sin, but also that it is our duty to fill up the earth, cutting down the rainforests and destroying all the natural beauty of the world through 'taming', before it can be called overcrowded?

When I described "2000-year-old Bigots", I did not mean Jesus. Jesus NEVER said that there was anything wrong with Homosexuality, because Jesus was a NICE GUY, unlike some people. I meant the people who wrote the bible.

And you still haven't answered my question: Why EXACTLY is Homosexuality wrong? You can't just say "because God says so", because you have no proof of that. All you have is an exaggerated, largely fictional book of riddles. If you can think for yourself, you must be able to tell me why you think Homosexuality is bad. Tell me, Pinky and Stattikk. No more evading the question.

Teal · #78 11-22-2001, 08:18 PM

If you're going to define being gay as a sin, first you have to explain why God lets his creations (if you believe in Creationism) be homosexual. As Lampy said, there are very many examples of homosexuality in the "lower" animal kingdom...

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #79 11-22-2001, 08:18 PM

:

Originally posted by Daniel Brown:
lol, that'll shut 'em up. Well, except for Piny who needs someone to spell out for her EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN.

*laughs really, really hard!* You are so dumb LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL.

BTW, you so spelled my name wrong. It's P.I.N.K.Y

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #80 11-22-2001, 08:20 PM

:

Originally posted by Rettick:
And people wonder why I have such a severe dislike to Christianity... Whether or not Homosexuality is a Sin depends on your definition of Sin. If by Sin you mean something that the bible says is wrong, then you are just listening to the ravings of 2000-year-old Bigots. If by Sin you mean something that IS wrong, then would you like to give me a reason exactly why it is wrong? Particularly, how does it harm anyone else? I'll give you some examples to help:

Murder: It is wrong to Kill another person against their will because that clearly causes them harm.

Burgalry: Stealing people's stuff causes them distress, as well as a slightly lower standard of living.

Homosexuality: ?

[your turn]

You dislike Christianity, so? No one's going to force you to believe in anything. What do you believe in anyways? The Evolution Theory?

Edit: Why is homosexuality is a sin in God's eyes? A sin is an act against God. Maybe because that's going against what God had planned. Like he meant for a male and female to date or something. I can give you a scripture though from the bible if ya like.

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

Joe the Intern · #81 11-22-2001, 08:21 PM

I know this is going to sound religious, but it does tie in with this debate. There are thousands of religions in the world. Every one of them claims it is the one that tells the truth. How can we make sure of that? The statistics stand this way. If you are Christian, you are in a minority. We can't just get up and say that Christianity is the correct one. There is nothing wrong with being Homosexual, and I have no problem with people who are Homosexual. But most of the Christians that I have met hate Homosexuals. I find these people to be ignorant biggots. Many of these people have never even met a gay person, yet they make the judgement that they are bad. This really pisses me off. Every day in my school, I hear people called "gay" and "fag".

Now on to the genetics issue. A sexual preferance is something that can't be helped. It will always be a part of us no matter who we are or where we live or what we do.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #82 11-22-2001, 08:25 PM

:

Originally posted by Gluk Schmuck:
lol to Syd!
were those serious?

"Do not resist one who is evil." [Matt 5:39]
if God tells you not to resist evil then why did he throw out Adam & Eve for doing what the evil serpant told them to?
Christian God = hypocrite
http://www.no-god.com/game/cmj.html
has many examples of stupid things in the bible.

Okay, I know it's 3 in a row I made post. I won't do it anymore.

If you actually read the bible instead of judging it and not reading, then you would know that the bible has a new covenant, and an old one. Christian God is not a hypocrite.

BTW, I am Christian. Not catholic, christian.

Danny · #83 11-22-2001, 08:44 PM

Pinky, if this New Covenant still says Homosexuality is a Sin, then it is no better than the old one...

Why do you seem to think that Catholicism and Christianity are two different things? Catholicism is one branch of Christianity. If you mean that you are a Protestant, then Catholics are every bit as Christian as you. More, in fact, since they were there first...

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #84 11-22-2001, 08:53 PM

Okay, LOL this would be my last post in a row.

Let me get this straight. It's okay for some people to talk all bad christianty and what we believe in and disagree, and it's not okay for christians to disagree with the people who are atheist? in the bible? If someone to believe what the bible saids, it is obvious that person would be called all kinds of things. I mean, what is up with that?

How about we just listen whatever people want to say and believe in, even if you don't believe in what the bible saids? . I find it not right if someone believes what is written, they get put down and the people who don't believe in the bible, get put up? Alriiiigggghhhhttttyyy? Okay!

nullI'll try to do the same too I bold that so people won't think that something crazy.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #85 11-22-2001, 08:55 PM

:

Originally posted by Rettick:
Pinky, if this New Covenant still says Homosexuality is a Sin, then it is no better than the old one...

Why do you seem to think that Catholicism and Christianity are two different things? Catholicism is one branch of Christianity. If you mean that you are a Protestant, then Catholics are every bit as Christian as you. More, in fact, since they were there first...

It's bee a sin ever since the old testament too. God really hated it when it entered the place Soddom and Ghomorrah. He had to destroy that place. God does not dislike the people who are gay. He just dislikes the act of it.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #86 11-22-2001, 08:57 PM

No, catholics and christians are different. They both do believe in God and Jesus Christ the son of God, but somethings are different. We don't get baptized when we are babys. We don't do conformations or linton or whatever that's called.

Danny · #87 11-22-2001, 08:59 PM

Pinky, I respect your beliefs, but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with them. Besides, why shouldn't Atheists respect each other? You put down people who DON'T believe in the Bible, and yet you expect us to not put you down...

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #88 11-22-2001, 09:04 PM

If I have, I apologize. I don't appreciate people disrespecting christians and respecting the people who are atheist, Or saying Christian God=hypocrite.

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

Sydney · #89 11-22-2001, 10:01 PM

I have no problem with any religion. However, when someone begins introducing scripture into a discussion that concerns the legal rights of people (of all belief systems), it becomes irrelevent and verges on the height of disrespect. When government policies are influenced by religion, we end up with things like the Taliban.

As I tried to point out in my last post, it's hypocritical to single out homosexuality when there are verses upon verses of sins that modern Christians seem to turn a blind eye to.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #90 11-22-2001, 10:03 PM

:

Originally posted by Sydney:
I have no problem with any religion. However, when someone begins introducing scripture into a discussion that concerns the legal rights of people (of all belief systems), it becomes irrelevent and verges on the height of disrespect. When government policies are influenced by religion, we end up with things like the Taliban.

As I tried to point out in my last post, it's hypocritical to single out homosexuality when there are verses upon verses of sins that modern Christians seem to turn a blind eye to.

Tne why do you bring out the verses? I ask if people want to see some. Does that make you hypocritical?