Holocaust...or...Holohoax?

[Jacob]

'And try checking your post before mine, Jacob'

Christ. Is there anything specifically in my post that you deem moronic? Or is it the whole thing that i have to defend?

'They used to have meetings at a place near my town. And they say they are protecting humanity. Please, they are a mockery to our species and my society.'

Yes, they may be vile, arrogant, narrow-minded people, but you're no better. At least i make an effort to understand their point of view, even if they wanted to illegalise Homosexuality (which, from what i gather, they wouldn't say "no" to) i'd still want to understand their point of view. I may not agree with it, but at least i'm being open-minded enough to not bash them violently for an opinion that's not liberal.

Out of intrigue, how do you know that the guys near you were just spouting bullsh*t? Did you ever go to one of those meetings? 'cos i genuinely would love to go to a KKK meeting, much like when Louis Theroux went to the Neo convention.

'who's actions would be today seen as human rights violations'

What actions? I'm interested to know whether your opinion on somebody's human rights is one akin to that Asian woman who's getting far too much publicity since the bombings or one of your own.

'If they genuinely want to preserve racial purity for themselves, then that's up to them to not have sex with people of differing ethnicity'

I totally agree. But i'm in agreement with them in the sense that mixing races shouldn't be encouraged. Then again, i also think it shouldn't be discouraged. The atmosphere in society today seems to me that if you say "Oh, Black/Asian/Oriental people aren't my type, really" you're automatically thought of as "one of those"

'If the KKK were at all interested in preserving racial purity, they would've been killing whites, blacks, spanish, italian, and asian people in pretty much equal proportion, but they weren't - in fact, studies have shown that the majority of their victims were black or black/white "half-caste"'

I agree with you. But then you have got to consider the different groups of KKK. Surely one group of inbred hillybillys is different to a group of bible-fanatic Christians, who, if they really were as God-loving as what they say, would look down on killing and think of everyone as Gods children (which is what the Knights think).

[used:)]

I'm no better? Well you aren't too far off the border line yourself there. You ask why I call you a moron and the answer is right under your nose! I wouldn't have posted that if I didn't already take in their point of view. The result, I didn't like it. And unlike you, I don't have to preach about how I'm so opened minded and accepting to assure myself that I am. And just because I bash on them doesn't make me closed minded. Have you forgotten that they've comitted atrocities againt their prosectued reaces?

[Jacob]

'You ask why I call you a moron and the answer is right under your nose!'

Yes, but i was merely inquiring what part of my post was moronic - the part about Spielburg or the part about ZOG.

'I wouldn't have posted that if I didn't already take in their point of view.'

I believe you said in an earlier post (in a thread somewhere, might've been this one) that you'd never befriend or associate yourself with anybody such as a Neo...so, how exactly do you know their viewpoint? Or are you saying "Oh, i know what their view is, i've read it in the papers and seen it on TV!!"

'And unlike you, I don't have to preach about how I'm so opened minded and accepting to assure myself that I am.'

But you're not. I'm tolerant to differing views and i accept that people's opinions, however negative, are just as valid as mine. I may not like or agree with them, but i don't try and bitch at them like you have done in this thread since you found out i was friends with Neo's - "Oh Jacob, you're a Nazi...blah, blah, blah...you're so racist...moo, moo, moo...you don't believe the Holocaust happened...nibble, nibble, nibble"

And i'm not even a Nazi, God forbid one ever ventures onto these forums whilst you're still here.

'And just because I bash on them doesn't make me closed minded.'

Look throughout this thread and you will see most of your posts are the most idiotic posts anybody on this forum has ever made in regards to this issue. Seriously. Do it. Now. Like i said before, if this was the other way around and you were being Homophobic or Racist in such a blatant and foolish manner, people would be bitching at you, but just because you go along with the popular, safe, opinion people ignore your idiocy, bar Mojo, actually, 'cos i'm sure he's backed up my tolerance thing.

Anytoast, i've had two hours sleep and now i'm going back to bed.

[Dino]

I think, Jacob, that part of the problem with your liberal stance here is that it doesn't really take into account the fact that it factors out any kind of emotional response to anything, and tends not to consider the emotional response of others. When you make attempts to consider the point of view of a group of people or organisation who are considered bad by the overwhelming majority, you will inevitably astound people.

Since you apply the liberal attitude to the viewpoint of the KKK, I would imagine you'd be happy to apply the same liberal attitude to the viewpoint of people who see you commenting on this stuff.

For instance, let us consider the standard viewer - through the eyes and mind of whom, I will attempt to observe your postings. When I look at your comments, I see someone who is making an effort to understand the KKK's point of view. However I question your reasons for this... why are you doing that? For the average person, the answer to that might be, because you sympathise with them. You have to remember, that most of these people are so hateful of the KKK that they don't consider their viewpoint to be worth considering, as to them it would be "redundant by default". Therefore anyone considering it objectively without showing any signs of emotional response to the subject matter, is entirely and wholly logically open to accusations of sympathising. It makes sense if you think about it.

This may seem offtopic but I think it's interesting to look at how people react to this sort of thing, as it's something that I dealt with in my child sex thread. Looking at it objectively, outside of any preconcieved ideals, you see the logic and merit in the form of how and how not something may be beneficial. It's suprising how much subject matter people's perceptions on their own can bring to a debate.

[used:)]

'You ask why I call you a moron and the answer is right under your nose!'

Yes, but i was merely inquiring what part of my post was moronic - the part about Spielburg or the part about ZOG.

'I wouldn't have posted that if I didn't already take in their point of view.'

I believe you said in an earlier post (in a thread somewhere, might've been this one) that you'd never befriend or associate yourself with anybody such as a Neo...so, how exactly do you know their viewpoint? Or are you saying "Oh, i know what their view is, i've read it in the papers and seen it on TV!!"

'And unlike you, I don't have to preach about how I'm so opened minded and accepting to assure myself that I am.'

But you're not. I'm tolerant to differing views and i accept that people's opinions, however negative, are just as valid as mine. I may not like or agree with them, but i don't try and bitch at them like you have done in this thread since you found out i was friends with Neo's - "Oh Jacob, you're a Nazi...blah, blah, blah...you're so racist...moo, moo, moo...you don't believe the Holocaust happened...nibble, nibble, nibble"

And i'm not even a Nazi, God forbid one ever ventures onto these forums whilst you're still here.

'And just because I bash on them doesn't make me closed minded.'

Look throughout this thread and you will see most of your posts are the most idiotic posts anybody on this forum has ever made in regards to this issue. Seriously. Do it. Now. Like i said before, if this was the other way around and you were being Homophobic or Racist in such a blatant and foolish manner, people would be bitching at you, but just because you go along with the popular, safe, opinion people ignore your idiocy, bar Mojo, actually, 'cos i'm sure he's backed up my tolerance thing.

Anytoast, i've had two hours sleep and now i'm going back to bed.

"quack quack quack...you're not intolerant...quack...I'm so accepting of others...I don't shun out ANYONE"S point of view...quack quack"

And it dosn't take asscoiation with those kinds of people to get their point of view.

[Jacob]

'And it dosn't take asscoiation with those kinds of people to get their point of view.'

Well, you have to associate with them in some way (beit through a website or in person) to get a clear picture of their views.

'the answer to that might be, because you sympathise with them.'

To some extent, i suppose i do. In referrence to the Knights, i sympathise with them because they are actually against the killing of non-whites, yet due to racist Fags who have used the KKK has a guise to viley kill non-whites (mainly Blacks, as you said) they have all been branded horrid thugs.

It could be likened to camp Fruits who, because of their put-on, over the top dramatics, have caused many a Muffy and female alike to think "Oh...Queers...all camp!"

[Dino]

Yeah, I guess in a way that's the same fate as the Nazis, you can't help feeling sorry for the original political group, because they had nothing to do with racism, and merely wanted to regenerate Germany.

I do feel sorry for and empathise with any honest organisations who have had their reputation permanently spoiled. Although I can't say I sympathise with the ideals of the KKK, I can definately understand how frustrating it must be for them.

[used:)]

Yes, even the republicans wren't as evil as they are now. Abraham Lincoln is a good example. Whats ironic is that the republicans were formed by break away democrats and the failing whig party, makes you wonder.

Jacob, it's not necessarily having to understand their point of view. If they do something horrible then people have a right to have a resentment against them. I won't sympathise with the KKK because they have comitted acts of prejudice against prosecuted races and peoples. Al Quaida I am a little more soft towards becuase they are the product of our pressence in the Middle East and what America has done in the past. So in way, we had it coming.

[Nate]

Damn, this thread started up 3 days after the last time I was on the forum. Well, Speaking as the token Jew on the OWF, I'll put in my two cents.

Firstly; I have no problem with Jacob starting this thread. He made it very clear that he was just trying to come to terms with something he did not know enough about. That said, there are plenty of websites that respond to Holocaust denial that he could have checked out. I've taken a few classes about holocaust denial but it was a while ago so I can't give you details. The one thing I remember was that we were told to never get into a discussion with a denialist as a rational person will always lose because they rely on facts whereas denialists have no problem in making up crap. A perfect example is what Jacob posted and Dino corrected about the Zyklon B gas (BTW 10 points to Dino for that).

A lot of people have made mention of the other groups killed by the nazis and other recent genocides. There seems to be the perception that Jews demand all the sympathy for themselves and do not accept anyone else. This has never been 100% true and is certainly not true now with the second and third generations. Jewish people have been the strongest to demand action against the various genocides occuring around the planet in the last few decades. As an example, the Israeli government has been working with the Armenian people to raise awareness of the Armenian Genocide (by the Turks) - which is itself remarkable as Israel is dependant on its good relationship with the Turkish Government for a number of resources.

I still have to put up with all this crap and the word "Jew" has become a sort of buzz word that you have to be careful with otherwise people might think you're a nazi.

As compared to the word 'Black' or the word 'Oriental'? Any descriptive word can be insulting in the wrong context. As Kate Monster* says, people should just be more careful about the touchy subject of Race.

It doesn't have an importance at all. It's clearly rediculous to say "we can look back on it and learn from our mistakes" because that's like saying world war two consisted of "oops! I tripped, fell, and accidentally gassed several million jews, oppressed an entire nation, and went to war with most of europe!".

What can we learn from World War II? Don't become an evil nazi dictator? I'll try to remember that valuable nugget of wisdom.

You must not forget that Hitler did not suddenly pop on the scene. He started off sounding oh so rational, talking about national pride and the shame of the WWI reparations and everything went down from there.

A few years ago there was a far right politician in Australia called Pauline Hanson who was advocating various policies that would disadvantage Aboriginals and Asian immigrants. Similarly there was an Austrian politician called Jourg Haider (?sp) who's policies were similarly controvercial. In both cases the problem was that they sounded so reasonable until you read the fine print. My point is that we must always be looking out for the next Hitler/Pol Pot/Saddam and never give them the opportunity to come to power because one day you'll (metaphorically speaking) open the newspaper and read that the Reichstag has been burnt down and your country has a new chancellor. And then you'll be up shit creek without any rowing instruments or a life-vest.

If you need an unbiased opinion on whether the holocaust occured or not you should look at David Irving v Penguin Ltd and Prof Deborah Lipstadt. David Irving (the most famous current holocaust denier) sued Lipstadt for writing a book saying how full of shite he was. The case in the British High court weighed up the evidence from both sides and eventually decided that, not only did the holocaust occur but the methods taken by Irving and his peers to disprove it are immoral and unconscionable (my words).

I would urge everyone to research this matter further but be warned that there are way more websites by deniers than real historians.





*If you haven't seen Avenue Q yet, go now and see it. Even if you have to stow away in the luggage compartment of an airplane to get to NYC, just go.

[Jacob]

It's also worth noting this thread was started when there was a drought of interestingness on the forum. At least this got people thinking/arguing/debating. Sadly, however, many of the forumers are too young to understand the concept of 'playing Devil's advocate', which is a shame.

I will, however, be thinking up more interesting topics for discussion later on.

In the mean time, just remember whatever Nate says, he's lying. He's part of the ZOG conspiracy to take over the world.

Don't. Be. Fooled.

[Dino]

Sadly, however, many of the forumers are too young to understand the concept of 'playing Devil's advocate', which is a shame.

And all of the ones that are, aren't wise enough to realise you're using 'playing devil's advocate' as an excuse to cover your ass.

Just admit it Jacob, you'd like to give hitler a rim job.

[used:)]

Why does everyone on here use the term "young" to describe people who are too dumb to get the message? It's pathetic, just say dumb. Saying young only increases the segregation between older people and mid teens lkike me. Take me and Another Forumite Of Same age, we have the same amount of youth, yet one (me) is much less spammy.

[Dino]

Old people say that young people are stupid because it makes them feel better about the fact that they're closer to death, greying at the temples, and wrinkling like a grape in the sun.

[Jacob]

'Just admit it Jacob, you'd like to give hitler a rim job.'

Okay, but only if you admit you want sex with toddlers. We can have a little share session. You bring the tea and i'll bring the scones.

Oh and don't forget the closet packed with all those Skeletons. Otherwise we wouldn't get to share and hold each other in a loving embrace that just makes me go all tingly on the inside.

'Why does everyone on here use the term "young" to describe people who are too dumb to get the message?'

I didn't. But if you want me to, i'll do so in the future.

[Nate]

In the mean time, just remember whatever Nate says, he's lying. He's part of the ZOG conspiracy to take over the world.

Sidenote: I don't get it. I'd use the acronym PotEZ (or PEZ for short). What in Zog's name does ZOG stand for?

[Jacob]

ZOG - Zionist Organised Government.

What the PotEZ is PEZ?!

[Rich]

What the PotEZ is PEZ?!

*avoids unescapable urge to make a comment about the sweets/candy*

[Shrink]

the Armenian Genocide (by the Turks)

...Never happened.

Just to clarify.

[LoboDiabloLoneWolf]

...they may be vile, arrogant, narrow-minded people, but you're no better.

And neither are you. You preach about being so 'open-minded' and how this makes you so much a better person then other people, and in other threads you say you're so superior. And you call other people arrogant? Stop trying to be so high and mighty.

Why, if you're so open-minded can't you accept you could have offended people? What about their views?

And someone who says all 'ugly, geeky, townie' people should be castrated and treated no better then animals are as narrow-minded as they get. As if there ain't enough slaughter and discrimination as it is, you have to go and bring up some more. That's depressing.

So don't you go around saying how tolerant you are because it's a load of crap.

And if anyone wants to yell at me for going off topic then go ahead, I couldn't care less.

[Jacob]

'And neither are you. You preach about being so 'open-minded' and how this makes you so much a better person then other people, and in other threads you say you're so superior.'

Homo-Superiors on a whole are more Superior to the common Muffy. It's a fact not yet discovered by Science. Now, go put on that dress and make me some tea, woman!

'Why, if you're so open-minded can't you accept you could have offended people? What about their views?'

Oh, i can accept it, i just couldn't care less. Quite a few people obviously don't care about another person's views that differ from theirs, so why should i pay the same courteousy.

'And someone who says all 'ugly, geeky, townie' people should be castrated and treated no better then animals are as narrow-minded as they get.'

Nora, go put on your reading spectacles and read the last few pages of that topic. You will notice that i say i'm not fussed about the ugly/geeky people anymore, but the Lower Orders NEED to be controlled.

'As if there ain't enough slaughter and discrimination as it is, you have to go and bring up some more. That's depressing.'

It's people like you that make me feel glad i'm a Misanthrope.

If only you were around in the early 1940's. In Poland. And Jewish.

[LoboDiabloLoneWolf]

Now, go put on that dress and make me some tea, woman!

You don't want me to make your tea mate, it wouldn't work, trust me.

Oh, i can accept it, i just couldn't care less. Quite a few people obviously don't care about another person's views that differ from theirs, so why should i pay the same courteousy.

So why should anyone take your POV seriously? You got a vicious circle going there...

It's people like you that make me feel glad i'm a Misanthrope. If only you were around in the early 1940's. In Poland. And Jewish.

What's a Misanthrope? And I thought you believed that the Holocaust was a hoax or did you suddenly change that opinion as well?

Nora, go put on your reading spectacles and read the last few pages of that topic. You will notice that i say i'm not fussed about the ugly/geeky people anymore, but the Lower Orders NEED to be controlled.

LOL! Your insults are very amusing! But back on topic. Lower Orders?? What are you, some kind of dictator? What makes you so much 'higher' then us puny mortals?

Just a side note, if I need reading spectacles and I am younger then you, does that make you a dodery old fool then?

But excuse me, I need to go and clean my false teeth.

And thank you for giving me a laugh.

[Rich]

LOL! Your insults are very amusing! But back on topic. Lower Orders?? What are you, some kind of dictator? What makes you so much 'higher' then us puny mortals?

He doesn't mean us. He means the disgusting people who currently inhabit and polute the UK.

[LoboDiabloLoneWolf]

No no, I mean insults directed at me, I find them amusing. And who are these disgusting people that are polluting the UK?

I think it's people like dear ol' J over there that need to be dealt with (not that I have have any ideas on how they are to be 'dealt' with).

[Jacob]

'(1)What's a Misanthrope? (2)And I thought you believed that the Holocaust was a hoax or did you suddenly change that opinion as well?'

(1) - A Misanthrope is somebody who has a dislike/distrust of humanity.
(2) - Thank you for confirming your idiocy. Have a nice day.

'And who are these disgusting people that are polluting the UK?'

General scum who bring society down. The UK is going to the Dogs pretty quickly and it's something i loathe to see. I, personally, love the UK, i think it's one of the best countries in the world. But when i see Lessers polluting it with their vile behaviour it makes me a sad Panda. It makes me an Angry Rabbit, however, when people tell me my way can't be used to get rid of them, because it goes against their human rights.

Ugh.

[LoboDiabloLoneWolf]

'(1)What's a Misanthrope? (2)And I thought you believed that the Holocaust was a hoax or did you suddenly change that opinion as well?'

(1) - A Misanthrope is somebody who has a dislike/distrust of humanity.
(2) - Thank you for confirming your idiocy. Have a nice day.

'And who are these disgusting people that are polluting the UK?'

General scum who bring society down. The UK is going to the Dogs pretty quickly and it's something i loathe to see. I, personally, love the UK, i think it's one of the best countries in the world. But when i see Lessers polluting it with their vile behaviour it makes me a sad Panda. It makes me an Angry Rabbit, however, when people tell me my way can't be used to get rid of them, because it goes against their human rights.

Ugh.

Well then, I guess I'm a Misanthrope as well, well at least a part-time one, sometimes I don't trust humanity either... And how have I proved my idiocity? And I prefer to call it naivety thankyouverymuch. But glad to be of service anyway your dictatorship *salutes*. And I will have a nice evening thank you.

I love my country too, and I agree with you, it is going to the dogs on some fronts. But I'd still like specifics of who you class as 'the general scum'.

Awww, poor sad panda, here, have some bamboo, or if you're an angry rabbit, have a carrot.

And I think everyone does have equal rights, and just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you have the right to just get rid of them. They are still human.

For example, I don't particularly like you right now but that does not mean I want to get rid of you, because you have the right to say and be what you want, and I have the right to disagree with your views, heck, we even have the right to insult each other 'til the world ends...

[used:)]

(1) - A Misanthrope is somebody who has a dislike/distrust of humanity.
(2) - Thank you for confirming your idiocy. Have a nice day.

She wasn't being idiotic, she just didn't know what it meant. :P

[Jacob]

'She wasn't being idiotic, she just didn't know what it meant. :P'

Look at the quote i used. Look at where the number one is. Look down to my reply. Look to where the number two is. Look down to my reply. The numbers stand for what i'm replying to.

Meaning i'm not fussed if she didn't know what a Misanthrope was, not many do. But it's when she said "And I thought you believed that the Holocaust was a hoax or did you suddenly change that opinion as well?" that clarified her idiot status.

"How!? Why?!" i hear you whinge. Well, because i've repeatedly said i don't buy into that shtuffs and i was merely pondering the idea. Now hush.

'But I'd still like specifics of who you class as 'the general scum'.'

Apologies, i didn't realise you're from the UK.

Well, Chavs for one. Teenage pregnancy. Crime rates. Drug rates. And immigration. I'm thinking of making a new topic to discuss the issue of immigration, and as for the rest they're discussed in my Ugly people topic, do a search, you'll find that my 'dictatorship' is quite reasonable and would work if human rights didn't bound around being pricks.

Which reminds me, when i do become Prime Minister, i'm going to quickly wipe them out. Wankers.

[LoboDiabloLoneWolf]

Meaning i'm not fussed if she didn't know what a Misanthrope was, not many do. But it's when she said "And I thought you believed that the Holocaust was a hoax or did you suddenly change that opinion as well?" that clarified her idiot status.

"How!? Why?!" i hear you whinge. Well, because i've repeatedly said i don't buy into that shtuffs and i was merely pondering the idea. Now hush.

Then I withdraw that comment and apologise. But I object to 'whinge', I was merely asking nicely.

'But I'd still like specifics of who you class as 'the general scum'.'

Apologies, i didn't realise you're from the UK.

No worries, just a question, where d'you think I was from then?

Well, Chavs for one. Teenage pregnancy. Crime rates. Drug rates. And immigration.

Ah, well, I see you view completely. Stuff like that should be cut down, maybe not as harshly as you are suggesting, but anyway... I think really Chavs, (not to be offensive, but I was told this means like a Scally, but...more so...) and teenage pregnancy are a matter of choices. And there are sometimes good reasons for teen pregnancy and immigration.

Which reminds me, when i do become Prime Minister, i'm going to quickly wipe them out.

Good luck with that. Although, some friendly advice; 1, your new laws would never get passed by, the House of Commons is it? And 2, You'd get voted out as soon as your term ended, although that's quite enough time to create this lil' UK of yours.

And thank you for your defense used , it was very sweet of you.

[soulstice]

[I]'But I'd still like specifics of who you class as 'the general scum'.'

Apologies, i didn't realise you're from the UK.

Well, Chavs for one. Teenage pregnancy. Crime rates. Drug rates. And immigration. I'm thinking of making a new topic to discuss the issue of immigration, and as for the rest they're discussed in my Ugly people topic, do a search, you'll find that my 'dictatorship' is quite reasonable and would work if human rights didn't bound around being pricks.

Which reminds me, when i do become Prime Minister, i'm going to quickly wipe them out. Wankers.

I agree. People like that really are bringing down a great nation. But basically, remember that most chavs and teenage parents usually live in council estates in the outer parts of cities (stereotype?). Don't forget that the majority of people in the UK still do live in semi-rural/rural areas and are decent folk. But yeah, I do understand where you're coming from. I can't stand chavs and the above mentioned either.

[Jacob]

'I think really Chavs, (not to be offensive, but I was told this means like a Scally, but...more so...) and teenage pregnancy are a matter of choices'

I'm torn with this. I do believe to some extent that they're not as evolved as the more sophisticated people. I, for one, was brought up in quite a rough area. Yet i don't act in the abhorred way that, that kind do.

'Good luck with that. Although, some friendly advice; 1, your new laws would never get passed by, the House of Commons is it? And 2, You'd get voted out as soon as your term ended, although that's quite enough time to create this lil' UK of yours.'

If i did run for PM, it'd be in a good couple of years time. By which time the UK will be swimming in quite a large sh*t hole. And, with Germany as quite a goode example, when a nation gets desperate they turn to extreme measures.

And since i'm quite Right wing, yet i still retain a bit of liberalism, i'm hoping they'd find, hug and tickle my party with a great big rod of 'acceptance'. Huzzah!