Religious Debate - Homosexuality

[Nate]

When it comes to some of the stories in the Bible, I would always keep in mind the basic principles of ancient literature. From what I've gathered in my time, many stories are based on exhaggerated events and characters, perhaps based loosely on real characters. Not to mention the history of the book itself. Back in the days of hand copying books, there's nothing to say certain individuals of the church (which has a touchy history in itself) didn't make their own interpretive alterations to the text. The translation from Latin to the old (more or less) tribal-esuqe language of Enlgish didn't happen for a good while, presenting plenty of oppurtunity for editing by the upper class, literate church. Add to that none of the original texts have been discovered...

I don't much find The Bible's word to be a solid argument. To each their own, however.

Yes, but... Genesis is from the Old Testament, the Hebrew version of which has remained virtually unchanged for at least 2000 years and probably much longer, based on the Dead Sea Scrolls. The translations are shonky in parts
(eg Moses with horns) but have gotten better over the centuries.

An extra Gerald Schroeder reference for Ambi's enjoyment:

Before the big bang, there were no dimensions. After it the universe spread out, taking with it space and time. One theory is that the amount of the time dimension is finite and fixed so that as it expands, time slows down. Now, take the estimated age of the universe and divide it by how much it has expanded and you get... Six days and twenty-something hours! Thus you could say that we are still in the seventh day of rest.

Make of that what you will.

[Alcar]

Put very simply, I follow my heart. My heart tells me that everyone is equal, and everyone should be treated equal, regardless. I don't need the Bible to fall back on, I use it to strengthen my faith by interpreting its meaning for myself - what my heart tells me is right. You'll find that the more you let your brain run your actions, the more you hurt others. Because your brain has its own interests, survival. And it can be easily illustrated: Injure someone to the point of inducing shock, and watch as the brain shuts down organ after organ, in a bid to save itself. Until only the brain remains, and by then, no other organs exist to sustain it.

My heart tells me that homosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, transvestites, blacks, women, everyone deserves fair treatment. One of the biggest mistakes people of western religions make, is to completely make themselves hypocrites - treat others how you would want others to treat you. Jesus taught this thoroughly by socialising, healing, and what not with harlots, outsiders, pagans, the poor, etc. And yet by discriminating against homosexuals, westeners slander everything he has taught. And more and more people are seeing this hypocrisy, by opening their minds and listening to their hearts. I preach, people, cast out the demons that plague your minds, listen to what God has instilled with you all, your soul.

Apart from my tongue in cheek preaching, I'd just like to point out that women are still oppressed by Catholicism. It's an interesting fact, too, that in early Christian times, women were not barred from being priests, and priests did not have to practice celibacy. Certainly something for you to think about.

Alcar...

[Jacob]

I heard a while a go, and from some random source about Religion, that somewhere in the Bible Jesus says that Prostitutes will be the first to get into Heaven. But this is kept on the "down-low" for obvious reasons. True?

And of course there's going to be a minority of people who choose Homosexuality. I know one Gay guy who has chosen to be Bisexual, and although he hates for thought of being with a girl, he feels it's the only way he can be, thanks to his family et al.

[Majic]

I heard a while a go, and from some random source about Religion, that somewhere in the Bible Jesus says that Prostitutes will be the first to get into Heaven. But this is kept on the "down-low" for obvious reasons. True?

That's actually a well documented fact, kept under wraps by Christian conservatives from the medieval ages. And Bill Gates is really giving away billions of dollars because of an Intel/AOL merger.

[Jacob]

'That's actually a well documented fact, kept under wraps by Christian conservatives from the medieval ages. And Bill Gates is really giving away billions of dollars because of an Intel/AOL merger.'

I think only somebody of Higher status, and Bible-bashing shenanigans, is the only person qualified to mock me in such a blatant manner.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Alcar:
My heart tells me that homosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, transvestites, blacks, women, everyone deserves fair treatment

I thoroughly agree with you

Buddhist teachings state that a buddhist is to abstain from sexual misconduct, Not to dissaprove of it and discrimate against others.

Originally stated by the Buddha:
Compassion and kindness are the most important principles for a person to live by.

[Majic]

I think only somebody of Higher status, and Bible-bashing shenanigans, is the only person qualified to mock me in such a blatant manner.

Now now, I'm not trying to mock you specifically. More along the lines that any religious source would ever claim such a notably silly stance. Though, I'm a tad puzzled as to why a man of your intelligence didn't catch on to the stench of falsifications right away

[Nepharski]

In an effort to make this simultaneously brief and understandable, I shall ignore my usual verbose writing style.

Here's my upshot people. I'm not asking you to agree with me, just understand me.

-I believe Homosexuality is wrong
-I believe it is a choice. Never been proved natural in the first place.
-I will tolerate it. I will live in peaceful co-existance. Everyone has free will, and I shall not be judgemental of other's choices.
-I will not approve of it, or engage in or say yes to anything that shows approval.
-The Bible, if nothing else, is a moral guide, and it clearly states in both testaments the sinful nature of Homosexuality. All that changes, is that we should be tolerant, not judgemental.

As for everything about religion and stuff...wait. I said earlier I would make a Thread about the Bible, and I will, but not now (Homework...plus my mom needs the computer again).

Finally, a poser for Athiests: How did everything get created (according to you). Last time I checked, you guys insist that everything has a begining and an ending, and that nothing was there forever. With this in mind, answer the question. PM your answers, or write them here. Thank you.

[Jacob]

It was a question. It was apparently stated on some random programme about Religion - which i didn't see...but was told of. That's why i asked. Or...at least, it was s'posed to have been asked.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Nepharski:
Finally, a poser for Athiests: How did everything get created (according to you). Last time I checked, you guys insist that everything has a begining and an ending, and that nothing was there forever. With this in mind, answer the question. PM your answers, or write them here. Thank you.

Well, this is a difficult question. I believe that the universe was created by an explosion (big bang) but then it gets more difficult.
Did God, create the big bang to kickstart the universe?
If the explosion was not caused by God then what else could cause this?
What came before the big bang?
And most importantly if everything must have a beginning where does God begin?
Where did God come from?
Who created God?

If the response to the above question is like this we've heard it all before:

"God is almighty, he cannot be created or destroyed nor can you, a mere mortal, comprehend his everlasting existence"

Opinion: No creation theory or speculation is any greater than another as they cannot be proved wrong or right.

The universe was created by three giant, pink bunny rabbits who, following it's completion, destroyed themselves and their remains formed the vast expanse of matter we see today in space.

That is my theory, prove it wrong and you shall win some giant pink bunny rabbit merchandise.

(This thread could have so many spin-offs, someone should create some more)

[Nate]

I've always thought that the universe was created by accident by a bunch of NASA scientists researching time-travel techniques.

[Nepharski]

Opinion: No creation theory or speculation is any greater than another as they cannot be proved wrong or right.

My point. Many individuals shun away from various religions, because the aforementioned faiths are, "too far-fetched." In truth, all religions are somewhat, "fantastic," and that includes Atheism.

Very quick my friend. You are deserving of a cookie.

*Passes a plate of fresh cookies to Rich.*

By the way.

The universe was created by three giant, pink bunny rabbits who, following it's completion, destroyed themselves and their remains formed the vast expanse of matter we see today in space.

I've always thought that the universe was created by accident by a bunch of NASA scientists researching time-travel techniques.

I do not care what religion you have positioned yourself with, these are hilarious (My appologies, if you are not joking).

[TheRaisin]

Oh, I'm sure they're dead serious.

Atheism isn't a religion.

I don't find the God Version of Creation particularly far-fetched in itself, I find most concepts of what God is and most religious beliefs far-fetched. I believe in science, though, so I am a supporter of the Big Bang theory. If that makes any sense at all. Probably not. Oh well.

To me, the word "immoral" suggests that something in some way hurts other people. Like, it's immoral to sell your multi-billion dollar corporation off and fire all your employees. Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone, therefore I don't consider it immoral.

As for the naturality of homosexuality, I don't really have any proof either way. The one thing I go by is people who hate themselves for being what they are. Either they subconsciously choose homosexuality because they want to hate themselves (this would involve one of those complex psychological explanations), or it's beyond their control. The latter seems the simpler of the two, so I assume it is correct.

The Buddha. . . what a great dude. I could probably do Buddhism but for two things: 1) I'm American-- love of the material has been instilled in me since day one, and 2) the whole abstinence thing. I'm a little odd in my thinking about that. I think lust is bad to give in to, but I don't believe in total sexual repression. I think a balance of sentient thought and animal instinct is necessary to live neither as a savage nor as an animal that lies to itself for the sake of feeling special.

Shintoism, I think, sounds awesome. From what I've heard of it, it's basically small god worship. Like, spirits of the land worship. Sort of nymph-like deities, if you will. Worship of things neither here nor there. I've probably read way too many fantasy novels about tapping the mana of the land and using magic and whatnot.

Speaking of which, if anyone is interested in the whole "spirits of the land" sort of thing, I highly recommend the book "Found". It starts off like some kind of boring survival novel, but it quickly becomes deeply supernatural in. . . nature. It's set in the Scottish moorlands or someplace like that, and there are all these ancient ghosts and things haunting the place and it's just spooky as hell. But it's also about these two abandoned children born into a society in the future with no room for them and they find an abandoned infant and have to survive and learn to deal with each other and assume the roles of mother and father and take care of it/him/her (forgot the gender, not important anyway). Anyway, it's cool.

And I'm done. This took a while.

[Majic]

I'm no scientist; any theory I attempt to conjure would be subject to immense plotholes. Someday, we may know how the universe was created. Or, we may not. It's a bit illegitimate to ask a question based on theories and scientific knowledge we haven't discovered yet. You couldn't ask how a lightbulb worked 500 years ago. You couldn't ask how a digital projector worked 50 years ago. You can't ask how (arguably) the most important event in the history of the universe occured at this present day.

Neither side can prove anything, as of yet. And our generation (most likely) will never know. But quite personally, that's just dandy with me.

[TheRaisin]

Indeed. How the universe was made is never going to affect me or anyone on earth in this day and age, so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

That was a pretty obvious answer. Why did I not see it? Majic, you cut through that dilemma like a hot knife through bullshit.

[Rich]

Dumb ass double post...

Edit: I'll say something constructive and relevant.

Only the strong forms of Buddhism make you give away stuff and live in a monastery.(Kinda like orthodox people)
The western types let you keep your favoured stuff but teach you to accept that material possesions are not permanent and ultimately stand for nothing.

[Rich]

Atheism.

Ummm, what is the definition of atheism?

Is it the belief that God doesn't exist? If so then some religions can be classed as atheism...

Shite. Double bloody post...

[AquaticAmbi]

In response to Alcars's last post, I also follow my heart on such matters discussed in this thread, which is probably fairly obvious. My heart tells me God created everything and everyone, and that's all that really matters. My heart doesn't care how it happened, but that doesn't mean my brain isn't curious and sometimes wonders if it could be this way or that. I know the difference between my brain and my heart, and I think when combined, they both work at their full potential.

[Nepharski]

Oh, I'm sure they're dead serious.

Hey...trust me. In my life, I've learned not to jump to conclusions. You would not believe some of the strange individuals who we co-exist with.

Atheism isn't a religion.

I hate to disturb your thought process, but you have made an error in this assessment. A religion is a belief system. As such, you believe there is no deity.

In fact, after reviewing recently reviewing Atheist beliefs, I find it quite difficult to understand why they are not the most tolerant people on the planet. They should be, but they (seem to) fail at this...at least, the ACLU and Mike N...

Neither side can prove anything, as of yet.

A fair assessment. Well...there is Archeology...but I digress.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Nepharski on the subject of atheism:
As such, you believe there is no deity

Buddhists believe there is no deity. Does that make them atheists?

[Majic]

Trying to nitpick isn't cool, chap. Even if Bhuddism could be classed under atheism, i's nothing more than a novelty act to consider it as such. A square may be considered a rectangle. But do we call a square a rectangle for reference purposes? They have seperate names for a reason.

That is all theoretical, of course. Just because atheism/Bhuddism may share one trait, doesn't mean they're the same.

[Nate]

I had a teacher who described atheism as idol worship, because you are saying that humanity is the greatest thing in the universe. I remember I had a bit of a fight with him about that one.

Come to think of it, this was the same guy who said that the sun went round the earth.

[Majic]

On a philosophical note, who's to say man isn't the greatest thing in the universe? Eh?

Anyways, what subject did this man speak? I surely hope it wasn't anything related to science (or at least astrology and the like).

[Nate]

Even if man is the greatest thing, that doesn't make it idol worship.

I think he was teaching social studies at the time. I should point out that I went to a Ultra-Orthodox school (even though I didn't grow up in an Ultra-Orthodox household. Long story).

On the other hand, he was also a science teacher as well. To be fair, when he was teaching biology, he didn't ignore or mock evolution. He merely stated that its not in line with the beliefs that the school follows.

[Majic]

Oh, of course it isn't idol worship. That's a silly notion in itself. But he... thought the sun went around the earth? They teach the oppisite at 5 years of age, nowadays. And I'm always up for a good story.

[Nate]

Well I already mentioned this in the "The world is NOT moving?" thread but anyway... some ultra-orthodox people believe that the sun goes round the earth, despite that not being said in the bible at all. There are references to the sun moving or standing still in the sky but most people (even most orthodox people) would assume that thats just poetic license. I'm not too sure how they justify it but its probably something along the lines of "this great rabbi said it was like that, so it must be true". Unfortunately these people tend to assume that anything a noted rabbi says is divine truth.

[Majic]

If we all believed what notable priests/rabbis/etc... said, the world would stop moving. In a metaphorical sense, at least. Pun intended.

[TheRaisin]

I think it's odd to generalize an entire belief system with a statement like "Atheists should be tolerant, but they're not." For the most part, I am intolerant only of intolerance and those who are intolerant. I will admit to losing my cool sometimes when I just really can't stand both the ideas someone is putting forth and the manner in which they're doing it, but for the most part, I am tolerant. And Nepharski, you are an odd one to talk about lack of tolerance.

A religion is defined by dictionary.com as a system of beliefs centered around a supernatural force or god. So by that definition, atheism would not be a religion. But I think the way we lable an idea or system of beliefs is trivial. The English language is gobbledygook. We should not attach so much importance to words (or at least have more homogeneous definitions that don't differ from reference to reference). So. Screw it.

Atheism? Worship of humans? What a jackass. Teachers need to educate kids, not opinionate them. I hate people like that.

I also have a kind of gigantic problem with religious schools. Somewhat irrational. I just hate them.

On a just barely related note, in Washington we recently had to put down an insidious motion called the charter schools act (or something very close), which would have, in effect, created essentially private schools receiving public funding. The argument was that tax dollars should follow students and not schools (quoting almost directly here). This would have taken even more money away from the already poor public schools we have around here. It pissed me off so much. I know schools differ from state to state. I think I must have been unlucky in being born in Washington.

[Nepharski]

I think it's odd to generalize an entire belief system with a statement like "Atheists should be tolerant, but they're not." For the most part, I am intolerant only of intolerance and those who are intolerant. I will admit to losing my cool sometimes when I just really can't stand both the ideas someone is putting forth and the manner in which they're doing it, but for the most part, I am tolerant.

I never pointed a finger at you, specifically.

And Nepharski, you are an odd one to talk about lack of tolerance.

Forgive me if this assumption is an error, but might I suggest catching up on the times. As you can see below, I had, not in the too distant past, modified my stance somewhat:

-I will tolerate it. I will live in peaceful co-existance. Everyone has free will, and I shall not be judgemental of other's choices.
-I will not approve of it, or engage in or say yes to anything that shows approval.

There is a differance between tolerance and approval.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Nepharski
I will not approve of it, or engage in or say yes to anything that shows approval

Sorry if you've already answered it but what is it about homosexuality that you find so unacceptable. Is it only because of your religious beliefs?

Also, whilst the topic is relevant, I attended a church of England school until I reached 'BIG' School and, as you know, I am not a Christian.
At this School we sang Hymns everyday and said the Lords prayer. Our assemblies were done by the 'Vicar' and he hammered home the Christian beliefs.

Also I was baptised for reasons I do not know. My Father is an atheist and my Mother has no idea what to believe. Thus I put forth my question(s):

Is it right to give children a birthrite ceremony? Or should they be allowed to choose their own beliefs when they are capable of doing so?