Abortion -

Gluk Schmuck · #61 02-21-2002, 01:32 PM

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Originally posted by Sydney
1. Poor diddums. The reality of it is quite disgusting, isn't it?

2. More than previously? Do you have a problem with me that you'd like to discuss?

1. Yes

2. Yeah, stop putting pictures in my head!

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Originally posted by ODDBODD
1. intelligent life

2. Dont risk it, get off your ass and buy a damn condom...

1. Most animals are intelligent. As far as I can tell, all animals are intelligent.
Define intelligent, please.

2. What about people who don't have access to condoms?

Danny · #62 02-21-2002, 09:08 PM

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Originally posted by Sydney
Define foetus. Is a foetus simply the state of the offspring in the time up until birth? You've already decided for yourself that a foetus is not a child, and that aborting a foetus is acceptable. Do you consider a baby born four months premature to be worthy of the title "child" or is it still a foetus, even though outside of the womb? Your dependence on strict definitions doesn't seem to work.

You have to draw the line somewhere.

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Originally posted by Pinkhaired Mudokon CWR:
fetus is alive

Who said it wasn't? I certainly never claimed that foetuses were not alive, and I can't think of anyone else who has...

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Originally posted by ODDBODD:
intelligent life

So are you saying that Foetuses are Intellgent? More intelligent than most animals? I don't want to start an argument, because that's the kind of argument that belongs in a different debate. Just giving you something to think about...

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If the wanna have sex for pleasure well ofcourse you use contraception. Contraception and abortoins do have a difference, with abortion there is a 100% chance of life but without its 50% or less if your use contraception. Just dont take the risk that might haunt you forever.

I know there's a difference. I was just pointing out that you can't say that every baby that could be born should be born, just in case it's a great person, which was what you seemed to be suggesting.

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dont mean to sound heartless but you shouldn't have been born at all.... hurts doesn't it, i know it hurts and it also makes you think

Look, I'm trying not to get angry, but don't twist my words. I didn't say (or even imply) that anybody should not have been born. I am not saying that every foetus should be aborted. In fact, I'm not saying that any specific foetuses should be aborted. Whether or not to have an abortion should be entirely up to the mother. So, did your mother want to abort you but was prevented from doing so by the State? I doubt it, somehow. If that is exactly how it went, then I apologise, and you can ignore this last paragraph. But if your conception and birth did not go exactly that way, then that was simply cheap points-scoring...

Sydney · #63 02-21-2002, 09:40 PM

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Originally posted by Danny
You have to draw the line somewhere.

Perhaps, but why is the place where you draw your line any better than where pro-lifers draw theirs? You've presented reasons for your argument: a lack of consciousness in the early stages of pregnancy. I agree that if an abortion must be performed, it should be done early, ie, within the first three weeks. Is it safe for me to assume you believe abortion is okay as long as we define the unborn baby as a foetus? I'm uncomfortable with your reasoning because there is no significant difference between a foetus of five months in the womb and a baby born four months premature, because you draw the line at whether or not the "organism" is in or out of the womb. I also disagree with what you said about abortion only being considered abortion within the first few months. As far as I knew, it's abortion up until birth, it just gets uglier the longer you wait.

Danny · #64 02-21-2002, 09:47 PM

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Originally posted by Sydney
Perhaps, but why is the place where you draw your line any better than where pro-lifers draw theirs? You've presented reasons for your argument: a lack of consciousness in the early stages of pregnancy. I agree that if an abortion must be performed, it should be done early, ie, within the first three weeks. Is it safe for me to assume you believe abortion is okay as long as we define the unborn baby as a foetus? I'm uncomfortable with your reasoning because there is no significant difference between a foetus of five months in the womb and a baby born four months premature, because you draw the line at whether or not the "organism" is in or out of the womb. I also disagree with what you said about abortion only being considered abortion within the first few months. As far as I knew, it's abortion up until birth, it just gets uglier the longer you wait.

The "pro-lifers" draw the line at conception, which is absurd. You imply that I draw the line at Birth, which is equally absurd. I do not know where to draw the line. That is to be left to the Biologists or (if it comes to it) the Mother. All I am saying is that you can't blanketly ban Abortion. Just because I am not at one extreme, that is not a cue for everyone to project my opinions right to the other extreme...

Sydney · #65 02-21-2002, 09:51 PM

I didn't "imply", I asked. Your previous answers were blurry at best, only stating that a line must be drawn. I wanted to establish where you believe that line should be drawn, now you've suddenly said you don't know.

Danny · #66 02-21-2002, 10:12 PM

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Originally posted by Sydney
Perhaps, but why is the place where you draw your line any better than where pro-lifers draw theirs?

Apologies. This line implied that you thought I had drawn a line.

I find the use of the word "suddenly" in your latest post odd... What are you insinuating there?

Sydney · #67 02-21-2002, 10:32 PM

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Originally posted by Danny

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Originally posted by Sydney
Define foetus. Is a foetus simply the state of the offspring in the time up until birth? You've already decided for yourself that a foetus is not a child, and that aborting a foetus is acceptable. Do you consider a baby born four months premature to be worthy of the title "child" or is it still a foetus, even though outside of the womb? Your dependence on strict definitions doesn't seem to work.

You have to draw the line somewhere.

Was it unreasonable for me to conclude that your sentence "You have to draw the line somewhere" as a response to my post was an indication that you agreed with what I thought were your opinions? I used your rigid definitions and logic to produce an argument, I asked questions for which your only answer was "You have to draw a line somewhere." It certainly does suggest that you were in agreement with what I proposed were your beliefs on "where to draw the line".

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Originally posted by Danny
I find the use of the word "suddenly" in your latest post odd... What are you insinuating there?

Your earlier posts seemed to suggest that abortion was okay as long as it was performed on a foetus, therefore drawing a line. A foetus is the baby while it is in the womb. Now, suddenly, you claim you don't know where to draw the line.

Danny · #68 02-22-2002, 09:32 PM

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Originally posted by Sydney

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You have to draw the line somewhere.

Was it unreasonable for me to conclude that your sentence "You have to draw the line somewhere" as a response to my post was an indication that you agreed with what I thought were your opinions?

This was actually in response to your thing about Rigid Definitions. It was more or less an objection to your implication that I was basing my argument on rigid definitions, when the whole point of my argument has been that you can't simply unilaterally generalise and say that Abortion should be banned...

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I used your rigid definitions and logic to produce an argument, I asked questions for which your only answer was "You have to draw a line somewhere." It certainly does suggest that you were in agreement with what I proposed were your beliefs on "where to draw the line".

I'm sorry if I didn't answer your questions. I thought they were rhetorical...

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Your earlier posts seemed to suggest that abortion was okay as long as it was performed on a foetus, therefore drawing a line. A foetus is the baby while it is in the womb. Now, suddenly, you claim you don't know where to draw the line.

Did they? I never got that impression, although I suppose I am biased in that I wrote the damn things...

EDIT: Tom has just pointed out that, although I apologised for not answering your questions, I didn't actually answer them. I will do so now...

Hmm. Having looked back over your questions, there isn't much I can say. Not being a biologist, I have no idea how "Foetus" is defined... You'd have to ask Abby or somebody... As for premature births, I'm almost certain those are defined as Children, although I could be wrong...

[I'm doing a Biology A-Level, I ought to know things like this... :S]

Steve · #69 02-22-2002, 11:22 PM

I believe that they should draw the line as before it even becomes a foetus (yes there is a line, I don't know what the line is but I know it exists and is generally between 10-13 months(if anyone know's anything(say, someone in biology A(sorry about the direct referance rettick)) please ellaborate))

in case you hadn't noticed I was trying to get a record for most parenthasies(sp?) inside each other while remaining slightly sensible.

Danny · #70 02-22-2002, 11:31 PM

10-13 months/ isnitthe baby born by then oir it is a foetue for much longer

Steve · #71 02-23-2002, 02:24 AM

sorry I mean't weeks. I can just imagine a small blob of cells in a maternaty ward and someone saying "awww. isn't it just so beautiful?"

Disgruntled Intern · #72 02-23-2002, 02:38 AM

Since Pinky has failed to provide me with a link to a site PROVING abortions cause breast cancer, i was wondering if anyone else can?
i've tried researching it, but to no avail.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #73 02-23-2002, 09:23 AM

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Originally posted by Disgruntled Intern
Since Pinky has failed to provide me with a link to a site PROVING abortions cause breast cancer, i was wondering if anyone else can?
i've tried researching it, but to no avail.

No, I was busy this weekend I was'nt able to but I will so chill out. You could of had some time to look it up for yourself too. I have a life.

Gluk Schmuck · #74 02-23-2002, 12:01 PM

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Originally posted by PinkHaired Mudokon CWR
You could of had some time to look it up for yourself too.

Read his last sentence.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #75 02-23-2002, 12:04 PM

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Originally posted by Gluk Schmuck

Read his last sentence.

He's not lookin hard enough. Why don't you try google.com or the public library.

Here's one:
http://www.w-cpc.org/abortion/b-cancer.html

ODDBODD · #76 02-23-2002, 12:19 PM

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previously posted by dany
So are you saying that Foetuses are Intellgent? More intelligent than most animals? I don't want to start an argument, because that's the kind of argument that belongs in a different debate. Just giving you something to think about...

your not starting an arguement your just being stupid. Im talking about the finished product the humans. Its not like the foetus will turn into a vampire zombie and fly off to live with the marbats of tangor! I see that you like animals more than humans.

nuff said

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #77 02-23-2002, 12:28 PM

...HUH? What the heck is going on here? I mean, what are you talking about?

Gluk Schmuck · #78 02-23-2002, 12:37 PM

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Originally posted by ODDBODD

your not starting an arguement your just being stupid. Im talking about the finished product the humans. Its not like the foetus will turn into a vampire zombie and fly off to live with the marbats of tangor! I see that you like animals more than humans.

nuff said

I think he's saying that human foetuses will be intelligent and that things that aren't intelligent but will be intelligent shouldn't be aborted.
He's also drawing a thick line between humans and other animals for some strange reason.

Very important qustion, please answer it:
Animals are intelligent. Why do you value life that will be intelligent over life that is intelligent?

Edit: I don't understand how not having an abortion can lower the risk of "Dying in a car/truck crash," could you explain please?

ODDBODD · #79 02-23-2002, 12:53 PM

you dont abort animals! nuff said. Dont put words in my post saying that i wanna kill all animals im totally against killing animals except for stupid animals that just eat and shit. Like cows. Thats was all i was saying about intelligent life.

Now that i have explained it, continue

Gluk Schmuck · #80 02-23-2002, 01:32 PM

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Originally posted by ODDBODD
1. you dont abort animals! nuff said.

2. Dont put words in my post saying that i wanna kill all animals im totally against killing animals except for stupid animals that just eat and shit. Like cows.

1. Considering you mean 'animals other than humans;' It's possibble although I don't know if it's practiced. If you meant 'animals;' It happens all the time.

2. I'd bet that a cow is more intelligent than a two-week old foetus.

Disgruntled Intern · #81 02-23-2002, 02:20 PM

Hey, Pinky, i have been using google, and found nothing.
You're the one who promised me the link, why should I have to look for it?
OddBODD..there is really no reason to call Danny stupid, especially when he's obviously quite intelligent. I thought this discussion was goign well, but i can see some of us can't stay away from the name calling game for too long...

ODDBODD · #82 02-23-2002, 03:25 PM

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Originally posted by Gluk Schmuck
2. I'd bet that a cow is more intelligent than a two-week old foetus.

F-u-cking hell what do i have to do to get you people off my back.
Fine animals are super.. They are groovy and should be served by all humans.. Feotuses suck! they ALL should be killed! Skinned and deep fried for that extra crunchy flavour!
Kill alll babies and mate with cows so we dont have to deal with abortion because ****ing a cow is worth having a little baby calf to call Fred and play catch with. Feotuses should be sucked out and stomped on because they are stinky overpopulated freaks that dont deserve to live because they are weak and BELONG to the parents!
Contraceptivs should not be used because it doesn't matter if the mother gets pregnent because it can supply good firewood in the furture.... Come to think of it i better meet my COW girlfreind at the macfeatus for some great tasty GAY BABIES!

HOORAY FOR LIVESTOCK!!!
BOOO FOR BABIES! FEOTUSES SUCK ASS AND I HATE THEM AND SO DO YOU.

There...

Sydney · #83 02-23-2002, 03:41 PM

Well then, I'll just iterate my thoughts and reasoning.

Danny believes a line should be drawn somewhere, I agree. Unlike Danny, I have an idea on where that line should be: up until around 3 weeks of foetal development, later only if continuing the pregnancy threatens the mother's life or it's discovered that the baby will have deformities severely impairing its quality of life.

My reasoning is that both birth and conception determining the abortion cut-off point is a hokey way to look at it. Life is a gradient starting at conception, but the end becomes blurry as babies born premature can still survive, but they are not considered foetuses that the mother can abort even after birth. A woman who has an abortion at five months pregnancy isn't committing a crime, but if a woman kills her baby born four months premature, she's charged with infanticide. That's the crux of my argument.

Oddbodd, please don't swear. Pro-choicers aren't arguing for abortion, they're arguing for the choice to remain open to the mothers on whether or not they may kill their unborn babies.

ODDBODD · #84 02-23-2002, 03:48 PM

they can do whatever they want with their children, it wont help my life out at all. Just personally i find it horrible.

But tasttttay

dark_xinos · #85 02-23-2002, 04:15 PM

whell, someone sayd that "how knows what the chield might be... might find a cure fore aid...etc" Whell, that kinda depends on the parents and what scool you go to... Yes it is murder, but sence the kid hasent learned or experienced enything of life, its not a total loss for the kid... But in general no. Ya should ceep you're kid.

PinkHaired Mudokon CWR · #86 02-23-2002, 04:20 PM

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Originally posted by Disgruntled Intern
Hey, Pinky, i have been using google, and found nothing.
You're the one who promised me the link, why should I have to look for it?
OddBODD..there is really no reason to call Danny stupid, especially when he's obviously quite intelligent. I thought this discussion was goign well, but i can see some of us can't stay away from the name calling game for too long...

Um, if you were'nt too busy talking, you would of seen the link I posted. Google did had something. I found something. You were'nt looking right.

Disgruntled Intern · #87 02-23-2002, 05:41 PM

no, if you weren't so busy editing stuff into old posts to save your ass, i might have seen it.
trust me, unlike you, i read EVERYONE'S posts.
anyway, nice try.

Disgruntled Intern · #88 02-23-2002, 05:46 PM

Also, the link doesn't even work. so much for your proof, Pinky.

Danny · #89 02-23-2002, 07:45 PM

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Originally posted by ODDBODD

F-u-cking hell what do i have to do to get you people off my back.
Fine animals are super.. They are groovy and should be served by all humans.. Feotuses suck! they ALL should be killed! Skinned and deep fried for that extra crunchy flavour!
Kill alll babies and mate with cows so we dont have to deal with abortion because ****ing a cow is worth having a little baby calf to call Fred and play catch with. Feotuses should be sucked out and stomped on because they are stinky overpopulated freaks that dont deserve to live because they are weak and BELONG to the parents!
Contraceptivs should not be used because it doesn't matter if the mother gets pregnent because it can supply good firewood in the furture.... Come to think of it i better meet my COW girlfreind at the macfeatus for some great tasty GAY BABIES!

HOORAY FOR LIVESTOCK!!!
BOOO FOR BABIES! FEOTUSES SUCK ASS AND I HATE THEM AND SO DO YOU.

There...

Don't you DARE put these words in my mouth! When did ANYONE say that they valued animals above humans? Nobody does. That's just something that people make up whenever they want to argue with a vegetarian (or anyone who gives a f*ck about other species on the planet), but know that they have no argument...

You can do what you want, Nals. Nobody is trying to force anybody to have an abortion. I am just trying to say that women should have the choice, since you are trying to deny them that choice...

ODDBODD · #90 02-24-2002, 02:07 AM

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Originally posted by Danny
You can do what you want, Nals. Nobody is trying to force anybody to have an abortion. I am just trying to say that women should have the choice, since you are trying to deny them that choice...

yeah well so am i

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Originally posted by that sexy bastard ODDBODD
they can do whatever they want with their children, it wont help my life out at all. Just personally i find it horrible.

Sorry though, got a bit carried away with the baby eating and the gatoraid.