Darwinism vs. Fundamentalism
Wow. I just got done watching a Nova video (yes, people actually watch those) on different views on how God put us into existence. I just thought it would be interesting to see other people's views on the matter.
First, some backround Fundamentalist Christians: Will believe nothing but the Bible, some cases they do not belive that the dinasours existed, and they think that the theories of evolution are evil. (That's the extreme view) Darwinists: Don't belive there is, was, or ever will be a God of any kind. We purely evolved out of natural selection, and they burn the Bible. (Another extreme view) I just want to hear your views on the matter, because I may want to majour in Anthropology when I get out of school. Like, maybe you belive in a combination of both, or something completely different with a whole nontraditional story of Adam and Eve. If this topic doesn't go to sleep within the next few hours, I will post my views as well. And please, no one-liners! Thanks a lot (I hope this gets good...) PS and NO BASHING! I don't want a religious argument on who has the better religion. |
While I don't believe in God, I thought I should point out that not all Darwinists are non God-believers. Creationism, while I don't beleive in it, is totally compatible with evolution.
Edit: 'Nova' videos are often simply repackaged British 'Horizon' documentaries, which are actually quite fascinating. [ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: One, Two, Middlesboogie ] |
Other topics have done this to death, but it's refreshing to see a thread asking for clear-cut honest answers from people without starting the discussion with "Evolution vs Creationism: Debate with a burning fury."
I most certainly believe evolution is the process that results in life's diversity. To me, there's no other plausable explanation that takes into account the overwhelming evidence supporting evolution. I suppose bible literalists are raised with their beliefs, it must be extremely hard for them to deal with something that would hit hard at the core of their faith. It depends on how you interpret the bible (or other holy book of your choosing), you don't have to discard your faith simply because reality interferes. |
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Black & White includes giant beasts which learn from your omnipotent examples, which isn't far off evolution. *can't wait to watch his giant cow-beast destroy a city* Just 2 more months... I like Horizon whenever I watch it... My views are that the Big Bang happened and that evolution happened and that there is no God. If there was a God it would be called Microsoft and all its wares were cheap and its avatar of hope ( ;) ) would be named Xbox! |
well I don't believe in god but I don't go around burning bibles either. I watch Nova(horizon) whenever I can.
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I believe in evolution, yet I do believe there is 'higher life form' (think the Q from Star Trek and you are on the right track). These 'gods' (they are only called that because the lower life forms, us, refer them to that), do use there powers to create, destroy, and to guide us mortal beings.
Demonakos: pifff....you just described us to a tee... So I believe a verson of you guys exist... Demonakos: just wait...soon you'll be using our names as if we really DO exist... *rolls eyes* yeah...right...get out of here Demonakos: *folds arms* make me *sigh* and I misplaced my big eraser.... |
I used to say I believed in God because the Religious education teacher wouldn't take no for an answer. She was very scary and all she talked about was people who don't believe in God are going to hell. When I asked a question on how can you prove that god is real she bit my head off (not literally) so I decided I better not piss her off but now that I am in year 10 I don't have to do RE. I am not fussed with religion. I do believe in the evolution theory because it makes more sense.
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Um Mudokonball,
Yeah, we do believe in dinosaurs because the story on how they were created and destroyed, is in the bible. God did not make dinosaurs. Satan did. I use to believe in evolution..I don't anymore. |
why can satan make dinosaurs yet not rule earth? it seems like with the ability to create hundreds upon thousands of species apear he could at least stop a flood from killing them.
down with spontaneous generation! |
I believe in both evolution and God. I think that the bible is not completely literal. The messages are still important and the stories are more like metaphors than 100% actual fact. I believe that God created the universe through the big bang, and created all the animals of the earth through evolution. Honestly, until a year or two ago, I thought that most Christians believed in both...Guess I was wrong...?
What is a Nova video? Is it like discovery channel or TLC? (I watch those channels) [ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: RoN_Rancor ] |
I think that I've got enough responses...
PinkHaired Mudokon CWR, I am not saying that all fundamentalists are that way, but I was just giving a scale for responses. Like a scale between 1 and 10, and That's what I gave you. 1 and 10. Not, 1 or 10, but somewhere between. I'm sorry if I implied that everyone was one or the other. Because they're not. Anyways, I was thinking of some more indepth theories on Evolution, and here's my view (please don't hurt me!). I think that how we evolved from primordial slime is true. As with the dinos. And I also belive that the Big Bang really happenned. (I know that it doesn't say this, but I think that the story before-Genisis should really be "And He said: "BANG!!!" and there was a bang...") My theory is that the first generation of fully eveolved Homo-Sapiens popped up all over the world, and all of them were dubbed Adams and Eves. All majour religions that I know of have their own story of Adam and Eve, and each region never really had contact with each-other, so it really can't be reincarnations of the same story. However, God probably DID name them Adam and Eve, and we didn't all come from Adam and Eve, because there were lots of Adams and Eves, and other Homo-Sapiens popped up shortly thereafter. Also, I think, no, KNOW that the Bible was passed around by mere word of mouth for thousands of years, and in at least 2 or more languages. And the fact that people wrote their own portrations(sp?) of The Bible, that it is not entirely correct in some aspects, since humans are imperfect. I don't care if you really ARE a princess or not, you're not any more perfect than him or her, or even I. In the end, God and Jesus did (or, rather DO) exist, but the story of them was badly told by some possibly exaggerated people about 5 or 6 generations after it really happenned. I think that the Big Bang, Evolution, Jesus rising from the dead, and Dinosaurs really happenned, and I see no reason for these stories to not coexist. At least, that's what I think. |
well most modern religions have some basis on summarian and they had an adam and eve story. most of our units of time are based off summarian for example(some modified)/
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I don't believe in evolution, but entropy. After God created the world, he gave all living life a certain kind of gene structure, and the species that exist now are really degenerated versions of the first species.
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you know, its funny you should mention this. Let tell a little story. My brother is a science teacher, a sorta "substitute-for-hire." Once he taught at this yeshiva, which is like a Jewish school for Hassitims. (there are quite a lot of them in Brooklyn) Well, when he taught about the geologic time table, the students were all laughing under their breaths, since the earth is roughly 4.6 bollion years old. Yet according to Judaic teachings, god created the world about 2000 years ago, or something like that. He also said that the regular teachers of the school, who are also Jewish may teach things that are not in the Bible, but they take off their yamaka.
There is a theory that the universe was created for humans, by whatever supreme beings exists in the heavens beyond our mortal world. I am more of a naturalist, but still hold my Christian beliefs. (i won't let them go, not after 8 years of Sunday school.) Anyway, as it goes, the universe, with all of its galaxies, and star clusters and nebulas is all aranged that way to suit humans needs. I personally think this too much of a self-centered view, but then again humans are self-centered. |
When I saw this topic, I resolved to stay out of it, but it was just tooooooooo tempting...
Firstly, I would like to point out that Pinky is lying. The bible does not, in any way, shape, or form, mention the Dinosaurs. I defy her to quote the relevant section... Secondly, I would like to mention that I have never burned a bible. I would, just to piss the Fundamentalists off, but I don't have one to burn... Anyway, on with the Row - Umm, Debate... I believe in Evolution. Well, I don't exactly believe in Evolution, any more than I believe in Death. It happens. Get over it. There may be no direct Proof, but then there is no direct proof of anything. There is Overwhelming Evidence. Ditto Big Bang. The simple fact is that there is a lot of Evidence to support the scientific theories, and not a shred of evidence to support the religious ones. Anyone with any evidence, I'd like to hear it. It'd be news to me... |
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I believe in evolution, though I dont believe in god, I believe there is some strange non-living non-thinking matter that caused the big bang.
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I don't know what to believe anymore. :(
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hey rettick if I ever go to england we can have a bible burning party. it's just about the only book I'd be willing to burn.
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I've got a Bible and a box of matches, but I don't want to contribute to global warming. It wouldn't actually benefit anybody either.
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Um, no. I am not lying. You just don't understand the bible and what it's telling you. The bible talks in spirit. But you won't know that either. If you reas the bible, and stop making such a fool of yourself saying that it's not in there, then you would know in the bible, Dinosaurs, are not called "Dinosaurs" in the bible. They have a name which is in hebrew, I forgot what it means but I will look it up. Did have life before Genesis also. It's in Isaiah and Job and ezekial. You burn a bible? See what God does to ya if you do. You dare to test his wrath? If you burn a bible you would not make me mad. That's between you and God, not me. There is evidence that the evolution theory is wrong and stupid. It would be unreasonable to content that man is merely an advanced fish or ape which has evolved to this present state. Only man has a conscience, a sense of right and wrong, the ability to consider the meaning of life and death, to comtemplate his orgin and destiny. Only man can reason and make plans to improve his conditions physically and spiritually. Only man can laugh and cry. The list of differences between man and other creature can be multiplied. All these qualities of the spirit could come only from a Higher Spirit. It is unreasonable to assume that man's spiritual capacity was imparted to him by the animal kingdom. No creature can give to another that which he does not posess. Thus, it is not possible that man's spiritual nature evolved from animals who have no spiritual nature. How can you have an animal cell and a plant cell when both the cells go into mitosis, making the same cells over and over? Where did all the atoms come from? They did'nt come from thin air ya know. |
how do you know that animals do not have religion? we can not judge those who we are not. we're the only animals that change to meet out eviroment HA. there was a group of monkeys that had to move to a new place (most likly because of us "highly spiritule" beigns) and the only food there to eat was yams. they would get sick if they didn't wash them, no food that they had ever eaten needed to be washed but they still washed them.
Bad for the enviroment eh? well could we recycle them into some scientific book explaining big bang/evolution or something like that? |
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Chimps are highly intelligent, but we have particular chararistics that they don't. You said monkeys can change there environment, what about other animals? If I can't judge what I am not, then why don't you tell Darwin not to judge and make think these theories are true, when he wasn't there and then that would make you judging also because you have the same views. When I meant high spiritually, I mean God. Please follow to what I'm saying. |
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2. I've done all kind of 'Blasphemous'[sp] things in my life, and I have led a fairly happy life so far. Either God isn't up there, or he's a less uptight guy than you seem to believe... 3. The why, O Great One, do you persist in not telling us what this 'evidence' is? 4. How do you know? 5. How do you know? 6. How do you know? 7. How do you know? 8. How do you know? 9. Your biological knowledge is appalling. 10. As can the list of differences between the Sparrow and other creatures. What's your point? 11. And why is that? 12. Whoa, slow down, Professor! Could you go back to the bit where you outlined the proof you have that other animals have no spirit, please? I can't seem to find it anywhere in your post... 13. And you claim to be a biologist? Your claims are become less substantial as the days go by... 14. :mad: Okay, that's ENOUGH! This is the fourth time you've asked this now, and I answered you every time you asked! I even started a new topic about it, for crying out loud! Now stop pretending to be ignorant and LISTEN to what I say! Okay? It isn't difficult... One last thing: Please answer to this with some kind of counter-argument. Don't just say "Whatever", "You're not making any sense", or "You're making a fool of yourself", as is your wont... |
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2. Neither can Illiterate Humans. Does that make them any less human? What about Children, do they have no spirit just because they can't sign some papers? Besides, how do you know they don't protest? You can't understand their language, so you have no idea what they do or say... 3. Ok, I am now convinced that you have made up you 'high scores' in Biology, because if you were good at Biology you would know that Chimpanzees do NOT have a single food, and that they DO adapt. Ditto for sharks, and for most animals. 4. They have particular characteristics that we don't, too. What's your point? 5. In what way does being able to change your environment mean that you have a spirit? 6. And you were there, were you? |
for changing the enviroment: overpopulation changes the enviroment(not a very good exammple), beavers change the enviroment, all nesting animals create small enviroment for their young, there are thousands of things ants do. I suppose you want examples only of social evolutions and not biological(the monkeys is the best example I know of exept for ravens). in respons for the judging I meant that we don't know how they think so we have no idea whats going on in thier brains.
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Okay, I'm convinced you don't get A's and B's because you can't comprehend what people are saying! I was stating it as an example, I already knew that they don't have a food chain. Your not intelligent........ How would you know the evolution theory is just? In your face! And what is up with that children example? It's not relating to anything that I am trying to state. Animals and humans are different. Do you see a shark going to pre-school? So your statement right there, did not win that argument. Wow Rettick, I thought you can understand anything since you know everything. Oh well... Well atleast my less substantial claims are realistic! [ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ] |
come on you two...your endless bickering is pointless. Neither of you will give way on this subject so way bother? And dont start that 'humans are not animals' bit again. When it all comes down to it...we are all related in some way to every other living thing...no matter what you believe in.
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Yeah, your right. I apologize. What were we talking about at the beginning of the post?
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2. I will ignore this comment, and thus scuttle your attempts to turn this into a juvenile insult-hurling competition... 3. Umm... Because of the Evidence, maybe? 4. Do you honestly think that they would let a shark into pre-school? Your example prove nothing except that you clearly do not listen to anything anyone says... 5. At least I made a statement that was relevant, realistic, and reasonable. Let's see you attempt even 2 of those at once... 6. Nobody's perfect... :D 7. I would comment on this, but I can't see the screen very well from where I'm rolling around on the floor laughing... Now can you please stop trying to score cheap points against me and actually defend your own argument. Where is the Evidence for Creationism that we've heard so much about? |
These kind of topics are like Seinfield episodes:Entertaining yet pointless. Hey look, another religious topic, yeah!!Let's keep it going people :Define fundamentalism and discuss it's pros and cons. Man, I used to hate this type of topic and now I can't get enuff of 'em!
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I think the only thing that seperates animals from humans is that we talk in words they can talk but we can't talk in their magical language. We have no evindence that they DON'T have a religion or they cry and laugh No evindence at all at least what I've heard.
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2. LOL, what a hypocrite you are. Your a loser. *ROFL* 3. Um duh that's a stupid reply. 4. Shows that you know, your lack of listening and comprehension is making me sick. You did'nt even explain my reply correctly and you said some detail that was off topic. 5.Hahahah, your funny 6. Duuuuuuuuuhhhhhh! :p 7. No, your just blind. :D 8. You don't have evidence on creation or how humans were made or animals. Where's that information so smart man? |
*sighs* OY! You two are as stubborn as mules....*takes Pinky's and Dan's heads and smacks them together* Maybe that would knock some sense into you...
(sorry...just HAD to let that out...) |
*rubs head* Ooooooooowwaaaaaaaa! Thanks for getting rid of that itch on my head though! :D
I will stop if Rettick stops acting like a mean man! |
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear....
This is just silly. How long was I gone? And I said specifically not to bicker over who was right and who was wrong. I think that you guys need to DROP it, and just move on with your lives. I bet everyone in this thread a new shiny penny that Pinky and Rettick left their computers REALLY mad when they got done typing. Okay, moving on...First and foremost, dinosaurs. They were there. Some peeps don't believe us, EVEN with the bones in the ground, they just won't belive they were ever there. Let's leave it at that. Also, the NOVA (or "Horizon"...i don't really care at this point) NAILED the spiritual decoding of the Bible thing. It's as if the people that wrote the Bible wrote it down in code or something... :
Next, Adam and Eve. RoN_Rancor, I agree with you completely. Evolution, at least I think, was, is, and forever shall be precise and gradual. I think that evolution is a way for species to change themselves to confer with the environment. And the term adaptation, if memory serves me right, means something like "personal evolution". When we learn a new word, we have adapted to the conversationalists around us. Not the whole species. Finally, I would address humans being "the chosen ones." Well, no, I don't think that God right off the bat chose US. Maybe He kinda closed His eyes (or, whatever He has) and stuck his finger down, and it turned out to be humans. I think that he wanted to create powerful, adaptable creatures that would eventually become a malevolent species to take care of the Earth, so that He could move on to making another Nebula. His first attempt was dinosaurs. They, well...sucked. They were "pessimists" (oo, big word!!). They stomped, destroyed and ate. Maybe He chose out some of them and sorta left the T-Rexes to do what they wanted, and kinda focused on moulding the Triceratopses. Anyways, I think He made a big comet, plowed them all over, and then made the ice age so He could start anew, and eventually He ended up with us. Pinky, Rettick, if your still mad at each other, be the better man and walk away. Just don't say anymore, and if you want to continue replying in this topic, please address each other like everyone else, kindly sharing and contrasting views with one another. PS: I have more to say, but ST NextGen is on... |
The only significant difference between humans and other animals is that humans build upon and store their knowledge. Remove our clothes, destroy our cities and burn our books: we're hairless apes. Perhaps we are the dominate creature on the planet, but that's no reason to declare with especial pride that other animals have no conscience. If you share your house with pets you should be aware of this. The line between us and them is not clearly defined.
Pinkhaired and Rettick, I don't mind you two debating. I enjoy these discussions. But please, both of you should know by now that slipping personal insults into your posts does little to heighten your argument. Pinkhaired, I've brought this up before in a previous discussion. How do you explain techniques using Mitochondrial DNA as evidence for evolution? As I've said, Mitochondria are organelles existing in each of our cells possessing their own DNA, they're only pased on through the mother as they're already present in the female gamete, but not the sperm. The rate of mutation in Mitochondrial DNA is known, so they can compare the differences in Mitochondrial DNA in two people, pinpointing the time at which they diverged. The method has been proven correct, so how do you explain that this same method has compared the Mitochondrial DNA in a chimpanzee and a human, calculating that we shared a common ancestor five million years ago? |
you cant neccesarily think that other creatures dont talk, communicate or understand us. I mean, why can we tame animals? because they knwo we take care of them. i must myself go with someone or somehting, the higher lifeforms we call gods, designated a path to start us then let us go our own ways. There is nothing to say that there arent other creatures anywhere else that dont think like us or are sentient. there aer always possibilities of anything, i mean how would we know if we were being controled if we were hypnotyzed (sp...)..... would you? how would you know if you have seeen a ufo and been drugged by the government to not remember it? there are things we know and odnt know, but the universe hasnt existed forever. in fact its almost painful to try and think how and when everyting did get created, i mean is there an eternity? there had to be a starting point somewhere if everything eventually led into a big bang. so where did that come from? where did it start. animals (including us) are just systoms of atoms that cooperate to preform a task, but why do we think? does soemone help us? maybe an individual god helper person for each of us. there are just endless possibilities as to why everything started when it did, i mean for a chain of events for the gib bang started somewhere and we think and have become what we are for a reason.if there was more powerful lifeform it had to have started somewhere, originated because can there just be something such as an eternity like that? its just mid-boggling the way everything is and how it is suppose to be, why we do what we do and such. there of course is a reason for everyone and everything, so what have we done? provided a tool or a living mass for gods, lifeless spirits and such? it just kinda makes ou wonder.............
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Demonakos: Yeesssss mortal....you are all nothing but play things to us! MWHAHAHAHHAHA-ACK! *gets whacked in the head with a massive frying pan*
Annoying pest... Back to the topic, I have always wondered what happens to your consciousness when you die...does to move on to a new life? Or does it simply cease to exist all together? I am hoping it is the first one... Things like this almost always send a chill down my spine when I think of them.... Demonakos: BAH! your souls we do as we please with! *gets whacked again* I still haven't found that eraser...oh and for those that don't know...Demonakos is one of my evil God characters...God of Chaos to be exact. Demonakos: *beams* and proud of it too! *looks at her pan and sees a bunch of dents in it* This is not working.... |
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Humans can tame animals because humans either care for them or because humans will abuse them if they don't comply. |