https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeqTyM7XIAA8N0g.jpg
They already do, and it's disgusting.

It's not fun, its not silly, it has nothing to do with being a samurai-based killer. It just reduces him to another bland male sex symbol.

Is it just me, or is that pose of Tracer not sexy? I could understand the argument if she was suddenly in lingerie and was bent over a few notches.. But she's turned about, with her hips quirked. I'd argue that if you feel like this pose is sexy, you're sexualizing it yourself.

This is seriously a none-issue, imo.

Edit: Not that issues like this in general aren't real issues, this on in particular is a none-issue!

I, as a consumer, never wish to play a game, when there are a lot of non-oversexualized, ordinary men in a game.

Please, have some sympathy.

I would gladly play a game, where everyone is oversexualized. Expression is so much fun!

It wouldn't be a non-issue, if Blizzard ignored the irrational request to remove the non-sexual pose.

The issue is that they didn't.

Did they respond or did they actually remove it? Feed me the news, Varrok, don't hold out on me!

They both did repond to the original post (here) and said they'll remove it (here), and that's why the internet is angry over it.

They've also made an attempt of damage control by the long post here

Honestly, I wish that the culture becomes much more sexualized, but clean.
We need more revealed flesh and tempting poses.

And people say that feminists aren't ruining anything or censoring anybody's expression.

Please, act less like a sexual frustrate, Gishy.

This none-issue is a real issue. It's baffling sometimes.

I'll stand stalwart in the fact I'll never jump in on these arguments.

Edit: Thanks for the info Varrok.

Notice how his ass is not visible, highlighted or sticking out, and he’s standing completely upright.


No, you can see that she’s leaning forward and arcing her back as well, so her ass sticks out. Compare and contrast with the picture Varrok posted.


The article specifically states that Blizzard were already discussing removing it, nobody was “censored”. It also states that there are other characters in the game who are specifically designed with sex appeal in mind, and they’re not being changed.

Don't you remember that shit with MKX

It's nearly 1:1 the same pose as the one of Tracer. And it was the pose that gets removed, not her latex outfit.

Yeah... no.

Damage control. If the team was unhappy with the pose, they wouldn't have added it in the first place. It's the same standard pose (even of the same name) that other characters use.

When I said "bent over a few notches" I more so meant literally bent over. When I stand with a straight posture, my back arches too so I'm not really seeing a "sexy" correlation because her back's arched. I won't argue that she's not leaned forward at all though, because I honestly can't tell if she is or not. But I'll stand by the fact that I don't find it sexy, nor does it come off that way. But that's an entirely subjective stance. I still feel like this isn't something to be heated about (referring to the outcry on Blizzard forums, and the original "it's too sexzzzyyy 4 kids" post).

That particular picture of the male character in a similar stance isn't quite the equivalent of Tracers, imo, and isn't comparable. I feel like men can be sexualized just as much as women in video games. They're always burly, buff and toned, which is the unrealistic representation of men. But tha'ts an unrealistic representation and not exactly sexualized.

If Blizzard was already thinking about removing the pose, they were most likely waiting for the feedback. I believe the OG post (the one complaining about the pose) is a little ridiculous and overblown, but I don't see Blizzards removal as blasphemous.

I simply wish that people become much more expressive.
All this grayness is a bit depressing.

I'm in two minds about this; one the one-hand I don't see the pose as inherently sexual per-se, considering what's out there you know? I mean, her outfit is more revealing, that's what I'd take up contention with. On the other hand, it's just a pose, and it's just a game character...but then an obviously male-designed female character is kind of annoying; you could hire some female designers to work on female characters, if the sweaty neck-beard in-house male designers can't go five minutes without working tits 'n arse into the female's design.

Let women design male characters instead!

Here, I drew a diagram:

http://i.imgur.com/yOOGygc.jpg

Her back is more arched, she’s leaning forward while he’s standing straight, her hips are at an angle, and her legs are spread apart. They’re different poses.



Spoiler alert: the team could have initially been happy with the pose and changed their minds about it. They explicitly stated they were considering removing it, why would they lie about it?

EDIT: The game is also still in beta, so changes are perfectly normal.


Yeah I would agree with that. I wouldn’t care either way if it was removed, but I don’t think the decision warrants any backlash either.


My favorite example of sexualization of male characters is Metal Gear Solid. It has such a weird focus on macho men with nice asses I’m like 99% sure Hideo Kojima is bisexual.

The usual difference between sexualization of men in fiction is that it’s still aimed at men and is more about their power – when women are sexualized it’s “hey guys check out this hot bod”, whereas when men are sexualized it becomes “whoa look how STRONG and HARDCORE these dudes are”.

It still sets an unrealistic image and is really weird and gross, but for different reasons.

That difference is hardly noticeable for an average observer. It does not scream "rape me" or anything sexual in particular. They're removing a non-sexual pose for being potentially sexual. Everything is potentially sexual. The male ninja could be potentionally sexual. That was precisely the point TotalBiscuit was making in his Winston parody video.



Because avoiding as fire bad press (even if it's totally unjustified) from overly sensitive feminist groups isn't a good motivation, right?

I haven't even played Overwatch, it doesn't affect me at all. But it's still a stupid decision made because of a stupid post.

That's a dumb reason to assume that. Also, it's wrong.

How do you know how most people react to it, exactly?

I never thought a game featuring scientific super gorrilas should be realistic.

Exactly! Men and woman are different, media especially has created a dynamic where males and females are attractive for vastly different reasons. Woman need to be feminine, and have very define features of a femininity (big breasts, large hips, susceptible looking). While males need to be absolutely masculine, and need to physically be portrayed that way (muscles, intimidating, protective/savior).

Males and females aren't attractive for the same reasons (of course attraction is objective, but I'm talking in a bold sense here). So to some degree, I feel that the sexualization of men and woman in media are similar, just in different ways.. if that makes sense!

Edit: Varrok, it's also worth noting that there's more then likely hundreds of posts like the OG post that has gotten so much attention. I wouldn't correlate Blizzards removal of the pose to be the fault of that post, because frankly, it is a stupid post. They could have honestly been thinking about removing it.

On the other hand, Blizzard could verywell be saying that as a PR move, we simply don't know and never will know. There's not much use using it as an argument for either side, tbh!

Agreed.

It was noticeable enough that other people saw it and commented on it, and noticeable enough that Blizzard was already considering removing it.


Why is that the first thing you jump to when talking about sex? It doesn’t need to have anything to do with rape to have sexual connotations, chill the fuck out.


It does have sexual connotations. It’s not hardcore nudity or obscene gestures, but it has obviously been designed to accentuate the character’s sex appeal by drawing attention to her ass.

Perhaps you just have difficulty identifying that because of the oversaturation of female sex appeal in modern culture~


I watched the TotalBiscuit video, it was just a massive strawman, and TotalBiscuit has a history of defending sex appeal in games anyway.


What bad press was Blizzard trying to avoid exactly? A forum post from one person was gonna end up getting every gaming news website calling for their blood?

They could have completely ignored this and nothing would have happened at all.


“Man puts unusually large amount of male sex appeal and homoerotic subtext in his video games” is probably one of the best reasons to assume that. Regardless, the comment was made in jest, calm down.


How do you?


Yes, fictional media can absolutely never contribute to cultural trends and body image, you’re absolutely right.

Despite that my style of writing may suggest otherwise, I'm actually pretty chill. I don't know, maybe it's a manner of talking on my side.

I don't think Manco realises that the target audience for these games is men, and men like to look at sexy tits and arses, I'm sorry if that upsets you.

I can only help but agree.

A non-sexual pose, let's not forget about that little fact.

There is always a target demographic in mind. It's a good move to have sexy female characters, business wise, considering men play more games than women.
Actually this is totally false, that statistic includes mobile games, you know, shit like Candy Crush? I don't think 50% of Dark Souls players are female. (it's an example)

And?

Nobody said this?

Cool, but that wasn't my point.

Arguing with Manco...

Except that even if you assume that Overwatch is only targeted at men (and it likely is not), it’s completely unnecessary to include titillation to get good sales, which is why I highlighted TF2.


The study didn’t segregate by device for either gender, and if we consider the ubiquity of smartphones it’s likely that both genders play a high proportion of mobile games.

But if you want further statistics:

• Researchers find that female PC gamers outnumber males
• 44% of Japan's console gamers are women
• “47% of [UK] female gamers polled had played a disc-based game in the last six months, and 68% had played an online game. 56% of female gamers have played on a console.”
• 42% of American women stated they owned a games console

So it’s absolutely not a requirement to make a game for this demographic with titillating characters in it, neither is it a requirement to guarantee good sales or a strong player base.


The implication is there. The argument goes something along the lines of “more men play games, men like to be titillated while playing games, we should put titillation in our game to improve sales”. It’s the same argument that you’re trying to justify here.


Your point is “men like to look at sexy things while playing games”, my point is they don’t need to but there are still sexy things in this game anyway, so there’s no reason to complain about it.

I think that's a good time to say that my point was nothing in the pose alone was sexual, and yet they're removing it.

And it's hard to buy their argument of "we we're already wanting to remove it", especially since they do seem to have a history of censoring things that don't need to be censored:

It's not censorship if the person(s) removing the content is the person(s) that created the content

Do you think it was the same guy who modeled/designed the magazine that took it upon himself to delete its instances from the level?

Also, no, it still is a censorship, at least according to Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-censorship

I’ve already pointed out why I disagree with that. The pose has sexual connotations.


That doesn’t make it harder to buy, it makes it easier – if they have a history of removing things from their game then it stands to reason that they would be more likely to remove more. There’s no evidence that the magazines were removed due to complaints, so you’ll have to present some evidence of that before this point makes sense.


So unless the exact artist on the team is the one who deletes it from the game, it doesn’t count as a voluntary decision on the part of the development studio?

Self-censorship? That's honestly a ridiculous.

There's an entire debate in itself regarding censorship, and how adamantly people try to defend it. I get it, the right of free speech is very important, and we should cherish it. But removing a joke from a game isn't censorship of ideas or free speech, and it's beta - this happens, things are edited and removed to fit the ideals of the company and project leads.

The "ohno-censorship" boners need to go down already. There's a time and place to fight for free speech, a vague (possibly accidental) joke regarding a naughty magazine and masturbation, isn't the time to fight for it..

:fuzmad:

This isn't directed at you, Varrok. This just irks me, and I need to complain!

Edit: It also stands to reason, the people complaining about this form of "censorship" are SJW's in themselves.

Self-censorship is truly a form of censorship.

Overwatch developers did excatly what they said, and changed the pose.

Before:



After:



:tard:

It's an improvement.

It definitely looks better, but it's even more sexual :tard:

And it's based on a pin up

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...cef624c5ba.jpg