I never said that Muse wasn't music. I said that their sound is boring. The only decent songs that they have ever made have been the ones in which they've ripped off other musicians. Their own songs are pretty godawful. They pass as "music" but come nowhere even close to true artistic expression.

Real music is something that moves you, not a mundane wall of noise, or something so boring that it might as well pass as elevator music. They have an uncanny knack for turning everything into the same old whiney drone. Their songs follow such a predictable pattern that I could probably make up an entire Muse song using their formula.

This is what I'm talking about. What you need to understand is that music is not just a collection of notes, keys, scales, chords, whatever - it's something that's wholly more than the sum of it's parts. Although those things are the building blocks of music, music is far more than that. Music is not just about what it's made up of, it's also about how it makes people feel, the emotions and thoughts that it provokes... dull music is music that does not provoke anything... at all. And that's what Muse is.

It's simply trendy, loud guitars, singers with spikey hair, and MTV overplaying them.

WRONG. Both on splinter cell and your definition of a shooter.

Again, please wait until you know what you are talking about before you make such statements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooter_game

"Shooter games cover a fairly broad spectrum of sub-genres that have the commonality of controlling a character who is usually armed with a firearm that can be freely aimed."

Shooter games do not have to be played with a gun - just anything that shoots. The game does not have to mostly involve shooting, but it is usually the case that they do - it is acceptable for a shooter to involve very little shooting, or for shooting to be entirely optional.

And splinter cell IS a third person shooter. There is no such genre as "sneak 'em up". It's full definition is Stealth Based Third Person Shooter. Stealth games are NOT a genre, they are just a style of genre, as outlined by wikipedia.

"A stealth-based game, unlike an action game, revolves around patience, avoiding combat, and using stealth and cunning to complete your objectives. It is not a genre unto itself (though it is usually found in shooter games), but instead a focus the game can have."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth-based_game

Actually I think you'll find magazines often refer to them as Sneak 'em Ups, and just because its not in your web-dictionary dosn't mean they dont.

what is up with your love of wikipedia? Do you constantly check it it to prove people wrong or something?

feel free to give examples

bombs don't count...

lol, and you are? Your profile says nothing about you working at a video game manufacture

really? a little further down...


then I suppose those millions of people who have bought games like Halo and Medal of Honor have no taste.

games are what you make them


(I made an edit and may have left a few mistakes)

We've consulted an online dictionary in a discussion about first-person shooters. This thread reeks of nerdiness.

Metroid Prime 2 was incredibly overrated. I played it once at a friend's house and my reaction can be summed up in three letters: WTF. What kind of decent shooter is it in which you have to hold down a button to look around? And spend your time running around holding a scanner up to things and reading multiple paragraphs of text? And, of course, it's yet another of those classic franchises that Nintendo has exhumed and desecrated, time and time again, coming up with a new gimmick every time to keep reeling in costumers. "Yeah, it's still Donkey Kong. But you play it with BONGOS! Sure, it's still the same ol' Mario, but this time he's two-dimensional and made out of paper!"

Nintendo in general is astoundingly overrated. It will be a joyous day when they finally go out of business.

Originally posted by Dino:

Music doesn't have to move you. Art doesn't have to "move" you. It doesn't have to make you feel awe, or make you feel inspired, or make you feel good or pretty or anything. Art can be a tool used to induce thinking. Art can make you say to yourself, "WTF?" and make you ask questions. Art can do many things. It can be a catalyst or a communicative tool, and that's what entertains us. It's all entertainment. Keys, notes, chords, and scales all do that. That's what they're for. If you wanted to "move" somebody you could do it in a movie or a book or in a painting, too. I do agree that without thought or feeling art is usually banal, but you shouldn't knock the importance of the tools used to make the art.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. :D Sorry, but I don't think it really needs the ' 'Em Ups' bit. :p

Yes. I mean, what are they, the wannabe 'cult movie' equivalent of the gaming industry? Sure, they're old, and I liked they're old consoles, but now they aren't very interesting. I mean, a TOUCHSCREEN? With DATING GAMES? I hate touchscreens bad enough already.

Speaking as someone who doesn't own anything from Nintendo, I think they should be commended for doing things that are different. I'm not saying that 'different' necessarily equates with 'good', but at least they are bucking the trends of the industry and if at least one 'different' game is successful, that may result in all the developers pulling up their straps.

Yeah, I salute them for doing what they do, but that's what I do for anything. :p

Plus, touchscreens make me mad hella lots. Yep.

Nintendo just make kiddies games. So are boring
(Generally, that is)

Oh and Dino, dont you find it a little hypocritical that you describe music as 'something that moves you', whereas you use Wikipedia definitions against descriptions other people use?

Never heard the phrase sneak 'em up before? It's well used...

I've never heard of that heinous term before. "Shoot 'em ups" was a fairly common term... like, 10 years ago, but never "sneak 'em ups." How do you sneak someone? :p

Hmmm?, wannabe's? explain more

It's kinda ironic, it's just a piss take of beat 'em up, shoot 'em up, as it falls into that kind of violencey genre. Or something. God history revision sucks.

I wonder if those new Sex based games like 7 Sins will be called "Touch 'Em Ups"

Should be "fuck 'em ups".

'Porn 'Em Ups'. I mean, hey, a dating game for DS? Get out of here.


No apostrophe needed. That's how we can all tell you are thirteen. :p

In other words, shit. As in, they wish to be different, but they really arent. Hence, 'wannabe'.

Maybe he's just missed an extremely popular word in the language, and thought it meant Wann-Abe's, instead of wannabes?

Wikipedia isn't a web dictionary moron, it's a free unbiased encyclopedia.

It makes no difference that a bunch of limp dicked magazines make up silly names, "Sneak 'em Ups" is not a genre, it's just bullshit.

No, I actually never check it unless I'm researching something. I cite it to prove the validity of my point and to demonstrate that I am not merely posticulating. If you bring the validity of Wikipedia into question, then you are a moron.

What? That's a completely invalid argument. If a description made by someone such as yourself, does not match up to a Wikipedia definition, then the description is incorrect. I don't understand how you've made a connection between music being something that moves you, and wikipedia being something that disproves the deranged rabbling of idiots. Nor do I understand how through this you came to the conclusion that I am a hypocrite.

Why do bombs not count? Are you simply saying that because you feel that bombs are something that I could use against you?

I could come up with a list but basically, but really I'd just be expanding on splinter cell and metal gear solid, which both made innovatative and interesting use of items other than weapons. My point has already been proven by the success of such games - gamers prefer games with more depth, and more to do. The days of the simple arcade shooters are long gone, which is why it puzzles me that games where the only form of gameplay is shooting are STILL being made.

Firstly, I wish to express incredulity at the fact that you seem to question my credibility because my chosen career is not listed in my forum profile.

Secondly, to answer your question, YES, I work in the games industry. I attended the last two (excluding this year) E3 trade shows as a result, which was not a pleasant experience. The reason I don't like to mention it is because people make a big deal out of it, or accuse me of boasting.

That quote from Wikipedia just proves my point. Way to have an argument so weak that it does me more favours than you.

No, some of them have taste - some of them stopped playing it, or don't play it often. The ones that lack taste are the people who play it for hours on end.

Um, no they aren't. Not unless you're a game developer. Games are either shitty or they're not, and if they're not shitty, they either appeal to you or they don't. Games are what they are - linear games are linear, repetative games are repetative.

Yeah, you did leave a few mistakes, IE the entire post.

For the last time, it's an online ENCYCLOPEDIA. The clue is in the wikiPEDIA part of the name. And it was not consulted, it was cited the prove validity so that nobody could accuse me of conjecture, since that tends to be the recourse of the weak minded.

A pile of steaming shit in the middle of a sidewalk could be a catalyst for a long debate on how best to prevent dog's shitting, after which the conclusion is reached that some form of anal cork is in order, however that doesn't mean it's art.

This kind of attitude is one that's spawned the inane, banal works of art you might see in the tate modern. A pig sliced in half, an unmade bed, and the classic heap of scrapmetal or rubbish. It's one giant parody of itself, punctuated by moronic 'art students' who mill about hmming and striking various thoughtful, studious poses, all while polluting the environment with the sound of the verbal diarrhoea that is the hopeless reading between the lines and seeing something that isn't actually there. Years ago we locked people like that up in padded cells (or just cells) and threw away the key. Now they're free to roam streets (and galleries) and are available in fourteen shades of gucci, and 9 different pungent unwashed fragrances.

As wierd as it feels to say this to Dino; Amen brother!

I remember I had a huge fight with someone here on the forums a few years back about whether art is the highest truth and is, in essence perfect and uncriticisable. Bullshit, I say!

Exactly!

"Art" is overrated.

Originally posted by Dino:
The difference between Good Art and Dog Shit is personal preferance. What makes one form of art important and what makes another Dog Shit? Why is a tampon in a cup less important than The Rite of Spring? It's preferance, baby. Your twelve-page essay is due by tomorrow.

I prob can't be bothered flaming anyone, but I'll say some genre stuff.
Although Wikipedia is an extremely good free encyclopedia, I think things such as genres etc are always shifting and the definitions are arbitrary. So Wikipedia is smart and says sneak-em-ups are not a genre, but maybe in 10 years sneaking games will be more common than shooting games somehow and another encyclopedia will list different genres. There's no Central Bureau of Genre naming who has a government granted right to define them or anything, although certain definitions might make more sense than others.
Incidentally, where should encyclopedias get game genre names from if not magazines? They're not supposed to just make stuff up.

Someone disagrees with you, so they're a moron, Dino?
Wow you are such an asshole...

And have you ever thought that no one gives a flying-**** whether wikipedia is an encyclopedia or a dictionary? Because, really, they dont.

Well, it is called Wikipedia... not Wikinary. :p

I will repeat a question asked earlier: How do you sneak someone? Do you sneak up and go BOO! Or do you sneak up and shoot him? Wouldn't both be considered shooting games then? Heh, like I know anything about gaming.

And random question(s) for Dino: Didn't you say you're taking chemistry in college? Was that required for a career in the gaming industry? And I find your taking a general chemistry course strange during your last year (or at least very close to your last year, I assume, because of your age) in college. Things must be so different over there.

"I will repeat a question asked earlier: How do you sneak someone? Do you sneak up and go BOO! Or do you sneak up and shoot him?"

lol, like...that guy....whoever he is...said earlier, it dosnt specifically mean anything, its just a mickytake/continuation/or something of Shoot 'Em Up and Beat 'Em Up.
It was probably first use when Metal Gear Solid for the PSX was first noticed to be a 'gaming mircale' etc, and someone used it as a joke, and it stuck I guess

At least somebody gets it.

Your opinions are no better then anybody elses Dino, we all view things differently depending on our experiences. Art is not as black and white as you make it seem, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Hmm first off I know what wannabe is, second why do you think they "try" to be diffrent?. If you ask me they are original because they don't just focus on the one type of music (regardless of the electric guitar in almost every song.)

You don't have to be any particular age to go to college. I left college ages ago (when I was 18) and started university immediately afterwards. I took several courses, but one of them had a requirement that my current credentials don't allow me to enter into, so I went back to college to acquire that qualification, which was an A level in chemistry.

My title will soon be;
Casper Cabral, BEng (Hons), BSc (Hons), BA (Hons), Dip Chem (Open).

That's 3 postgraduate degrees, 1 diploma. Bachelor of Engineering, Bachelor of Science ICT, Bachelor of Arts, and Chemistry. One of them is an Open University qualification which I will be taking in my free time.

Look, they're not special. Just come to terms with the fact they're not anything new, they're Alternate Metal, they sound almost like every other band in this genre. I'm not criticising liking something that sounds exactly like something else, as I do myself.

Thank God this isn't the 'Ugly people - Should they really breed?' thread. :p

There is no such thing as a Sneak 'Em Up. They are called STEALTH games. :rolleyes:

There seems to be two groups of people.

Those who seek and appreciate meaning in art.

Those who actually appreciate it for what it is aesthetically.

The latter being the most logical method of appreciating art. Appreciating a concept or meaning, by way of appreciating the beauty of the meaning as a work of art (sculpting emotion) is (in my opinion) invalid. There are better means of doing it. Art that attempts to have a meaning is art that wants to be literature. Film and literature are (I believe) where this meaning should be expressed, because they are a better stage for it. The majority of the time you'll find some truely great concepts and meanings that have been totally wasted in a work of 'art', when really they perhaps deserve a book or film, or to a lesser extent perhaps a piece of music. 99% of the time it's because the means of conveying the meaning itself is ugly (IE scrapmetal, a pig cut in half).

To be honest Super Munch, it requires more talent and artistic ability to make a good song with the same essense, atmosphere, and continuity of style with another song, but still retain originality. No matter how similar it is to something else, if it still sounds recogniseably different, and is still rockin, then it's still originality and artistic creation, just within different parameters, different borders. Rather than working with a completely blank canvas, it's like painting a paint-by-numbers in a really funky and different way. You've still got the same image, but it's arranged in a totally different and very creative way.

Look at graffiti for example - there are some noticeably prolific styles, but that does not mean that they are copied. Each work tends to be completely original, but it's still very definately graffiti. If it strays too far from what it is, then it loses it's identity, but if it hangs too close to one idea, it becomes repeated.

Basically, there's a difference between being a copycat, and working within a genre. At the end of the day, it's up to you to use your better judgement and disgretion to work out which one of those two things something is.