You may have rested your case but it was not the luggage I was asking for. I wanted to know why Ann Neely, as a specific individual, chose to become a Goth.

I think its fine, just like Metalheads, as long as it doesn't unduly effect their attitudes. If you like it, fine, just don't be a superior asshole about it. I know one goth and a few metalheads and for the most part they are alright. They like good music, I'll give 'em that!

I think the majority of us are saying what I am saying
We are saying that we relize that they are part of society and we can see that, but we would rather not mingle with them too much, eh?

Shadowman, speak for yourself only. I'm fine with mingling with goths. I don't understand them as goths, but they're just people for god's sake. The fact that they're goths isn't going to stop me from hanging out with them. If I had any goth friends. Which I don't. But that's beside the point.

Exactly, if they where true goths would they have friends? No there is nothing wrong with goths, they could likely give you a good reason they are goths like I said maybe they are the only white kid in there school and dress that way because they know people will not mess with them. Its the fact that they want to be different so they act like alll the other goths to be different. Thats not different. Who someone REALLY is, is different enough. But after talking to a goth who is telling you how meaningless life is, I wouldn't want to talk to them much I'd say, but not all goths are real goths, there goths for another reason. I don't communicate with them much becuase they don't look like the kind of people who want to have a conversation. I don't really pay them much attention, just another face I suppose.

What you just said had nothing to do with your previous statement. You totally changed the subject. It would appear that you simply read the last three lines of my post and deduced my opinion from that.

Like I was saying, your opinion is yours and mine is mine, and mine is that goths are people and their being a goth has nothing to do with whether or not I choose to hang out with them.

So you mean they walk around with a little label on them saying "Hi I'm a goth"? No, I don't think so.

What is the benefit in identifying YOURSELF as anything? The whole point of identification is so OTHER people know who or what you are... not so that YOU know what you are. Who cares about what other people know about you? Why dress in a certain way just to let others know what you're like? If this is what goths were truly trying to do, then they would've all bought custom printed t-shirts with a synopsis of their personality and interests written on it.

And "Goth" is not an identity, because it doesn't identify anything. It's simply a loose term for a particular style of appearance, revolving around dark clothing. That's not an identity, that's a stereotype complex.

You don't look at a normally clothed individual and say he's making an goddamn identity statement with his clothing do you? Clothes are a personal choice, they reflect nothing other than taste in clothing. If someone is happy wearing it in public, then that means that they don't give two steaming shits about what you or any other person thinks of it. Their clothing suits them, and if you don't like it, it's fine by them, because they probably don't even want to KNOW people who're going to make comments about the way they dress every day.

Just because a bunch of kids who don't get it say that "goth is a statement", doesn't mean that it's how every "goth" feels.

Pwned? This isn't a game, it's a debate, grow up. On any other forum you'd be warned and have that post deleted for being a cheap shot, having no content, and being blatantly immature flaming/shitstirring and generally disruptive behaviour. Inciting forum fights is NOT a good way to stay friendly with moderators. Unfortunately, due to the limp-dick lax attitude of the staff here, little pseudo intellectual freaks like you manage to slip through the net. I wish you good luck when someone like DI finally gets pissed off with you. :banghead:

Wow. I'm going to wholeheartedly agree with this statement and loosely agree with some of the rest of it. If you ignore how pissed off he sounds, its not a bad little manifesto. On the other hand, the above quote only applies to how you percieve people who look "goth" and doesn't apply to how they percieve themselves.

I would make an adendum and say that some people probably are trying to identify themselves. I know people who dress like skaters, talk like skaters and think about things skaters think about because that's what they want to be percieved as: Skaters. I imagine its the same for some people who want to be considered "Goth". It seems Reptile labels himself Goth, and would like for other people to identify him at least partially in that way. Just because you don't wear a sign doesn't mean you can't let people know.

By the by, I don't even know what Pwned means, and unless it somehow has the power to offend me--which I doubt--it seems that at its worst its a bit out of place. I wouldn't even necessarily say it was that--since I don't know what it means.

And that is exactly what I beleave too, if they are a good friend then who cares if they are a goth or not. Is that what you beleave too?

heh...pwned. :)

Exactly, Shadowman. I think some things got lost in translation there. That's exactly how I feel.

Okay, let me rephrase my previous statement: "I agree whole-heartedly." I was not attempting to "flame" or "shitstir" in any way. But I see your point. Editing post now.

I commend you on your pedantic . . . ness (Dictionary.com is not as helpful a resource as I had thought), but I think you're overreacting. And don't presume to tell me about the rules, please. I'm fully aware of them.

You'll have to excuse the fact that I sound pissed off, because I am easily annoyed over such things. It really, really bugs me that a civilization which so arrogantly considers itself to be advanced, mostly still looks at people who appear "different" to the "norm" and makes up a load of crap about them.

What is the point in rediculing diversity? I mean, we don't laugh at someone because their nose is curved and not straight, so why laugh at someone just because they look different to the next person? I could redicule them by saying "HA! Look at you lot trying to copy each other but can't because your faces all look different!".

Just another one of those things I suppose. "The stupid laugh at the intelligent, but the stupid get hit by busses and walk off cliffs."

Not all people are like that just the averag bastard.

Might I ask, the average bastard is that of the average Joe? If so, don't you think the majority of us are bastards making fun of people who aren't like us, yet we show this type of behaviour to hide our fears of what they could do to us.

"That guy's wearing black, let's beat him up." That really annoys me, beating someone up just because of their clothing. The Republic of Ireland (or so I hear) is very violent against Goths.

Usually I'd be angry bout that comment but I don't know if it's true but where I come from all our goth's haven't been attacked.

The Republic of Ireland is also very catholic, I heard. Seems that some (ultra christian / conservative?) people have problems with things they don't know and of course don't want to know. It might bite 'em! ;( Fear is a bad thing.

I don't belong to any church and I'm unbaptised but I never had any problems because my "missing religion" and never had problems with other people when I were a goth. But I found that changin' your clothes don't change your mind and a little bit more colour in life cannot be wrong ;)

Quit slaggin off the green isle

Hey I like Ireland very much and want to visit it some day ;)

Heres a tip If you like warm climates do not come here.

Goths are most likely to come under attack from chavs, not religious fanatics. No-one deserves to be beaten up on the streets, least of all goths. They cause no harm. Chavs on the other hand...

What are CHAVS?

I think Leeum put a link on earlier. www.chavscum.co.uk

Allow me to repeat an earlier announcement I made. So long as I am a moderator of this forum, there shall be absolutely NO "owned/pwned" posts. Period. They aren't funny. Ever. In fact, there was NEVER a point or situation in which they were funny. There are very few things that I go "all-out Nazi mod" on, and this is one of them. Cut the shit.

--------------------

As for the topic at hand, remember that there are some major culture differences between the US and UK. This includes social sects. I don't know anything about Goths in the UK (or any British social sect for that matter), but goths in the US are generally just angsty high school kids. I mean, I hate to stereotype, but most of the "goths" over here are like that. And yes, often times "goths" in the US will actually claim to be, and label themselves as, "goths."

Generally, rejected children will try the hardest to fit into an "alternative" group while keeping scorn for other groups. Of course, what they generally don't realize is that they are conforming to a "non-conformity," effectively defeating the purpose of becoming whatever the hell they decided to become in the first place. In the US, much more than other countries, stress is placed on individualism. Everyone is "unique," and if you're in an "alternative" click, you're somehow more unique than everyone else. Now you've got superiority complexes and a bunch of other superfluous bull shit. The point being, you can NEVER say that you're more unique than members of other groups when, in the end, you're really just an honorary member of another everyday group.

And don't think that I'm saying this with hubris, either. Trust me, I've been there.

Of course, you can't really blame a teen for trying to "belong" to something. It's really just part of growing up. Search for identity and all that sentimental shit. However, when adults stay in a phase they should have grown out of years back, that's when the problems occur.

(Everything in the above post refers to US "goths." I've already stated that I don't know shit about social sects in the UK. For the love of god, no one start harping on that.)

It's pretty much the same in the UK. At least with the goths I know.

Who was harping?

No one. That's the point. I don't want anyone to start.

No one, but he didn't want anyone to start.

Yep, this is the sad part. Some people think they're being so daring and nonconformative by joining a group that they perceive to be out of the norm. Even if that group is so positively unoriginal and normal that they're just making themselves blend in more.

I like the goths (and non-goths) that don't try to fit in. Like, the ones that dye their hair some eye-watering color and spike it up and do whatever kind of crazy thing they want. Of course, some of these people may just be trying to get attention, but I think some do it because they honestly just want to do it. That's cool. For example, the guy at my school who wears like old-school Converse and plaid old-style lounge pants that stop several inches above his ankles, and a jacket and shirt that make him look like a geeky anchorman. And he took his ID tag (everyone at school has to wear these ID cards around their necks, it's total crap) and scanned it and made a copy of it about ten times larger which he wears around school. But no one would say he's uncool. He's one of the coolest kids at my school. It's awesome. Everyone should be like that guy. (please laugh at the irony of that last statement) But seriously, I think he exemplifies what I'm talking about.

I heard in the US Goths don't envy the popular folks. I was reading an article in a magazine where a Goth guy was stabbed in St. Stephen's Green, in Dublin. Ireland, as far as I can tell, is a catholic, christian filled society where religion is deep, and I don't think the Irish take kindly to 'Pagans' or 'Satanists' as they are falsely accused of being.

I'm right here you know.

This is a pretty cool debate that you guys have cooked up here. :)

I have a question for you:

Some people have called me a goth before, but I don't identify myself as that. I don't identify myself as anything. My clothes are mostly black, and I tend to lean toward a more alternative appearance. But does that actually make me a "goth"? I guess what I'm trying to ask is, do you define yourself by what other people say you are, and if you're unique, do you simply adopt the culture that is the most similar to what you are?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what I was trying to ask/say anyways.