I'd like to tell Mudling how much I disagree with him. Look around you. Most adolescents (even most young children) are dick-heads. Sure, there were bad children around when I was a kid, but not as bad as today. And that's because a lot of us were beaten. We had something other than fear beaten into us. Something that most children lack today:

DISCIPLINE

Just you think about that.

I have thought about it.

There is no such thing as discipline, it is intangible. The thing you are describing is obedience.

Obedience is formed through fear and fear is bad, much better to form respect through love.

The kind of parent who would do that probably wouldn't care about how legal it is.

I remember when the school starting rewarding Ipods to kids who behaved. I was good as gold in school so my good deeds went by unnoticed. all the dickheads who did ONE good thing were given an Ipod. Did this make them behave better? Not when they got the Ipod.
How come they get an Ipod for being good once, and I get fuck all for being good. I became a real wanker in order to get my Ipod :) It was worth it though.

I'm joking. But I know what it's like when "bad children and rewarded." Seriously, it makes you consider becoming bad yourself.

How is obedience any more tangible than discipline? There's no such thing as justice, duty and mercy either. But we make them real because they make narrative sense.

Discipline cannot be objectively measured, Obedience however can.

My link also shows why it is a good thing that authority is now subject to more disobedience than it used to.

The occasional smake by the parents should be fine but by a teacher or a "complete stranger" i think is a large no no.

I mean, you may know your parents measure of the amount of force required BUT a teacher's could be totally different.

I remember my mum telling me that one of her teachers THREW A BLACK BOARD RUBBER at one of her pupil, giving her a large black eye and a bloddy nose.

That shit is not going to enforce disipline

If you're going to do it that way, discipline can also be measured. Last semester I took a course on animal behaviour, and discipline is merely the voluntary adherence a certain order, which can be observed in the form of behavioural patterns. These can be recorded and statistically analysed.

Some of you may find this dumb and disputable, but I think some of the influece is from teacher's. Now, I'm not that old myself but seriously, how can you not blame teacher's. I remember when in elementary, this grade 2/3 teacher, would actually yell at student's, like me, for not playing a game with rules of our own making. None of this "I play by my own rules" shit but all kids, grade's 1-6, knew these rule's, and abided by them. We actually had neutral(of course) people who would be referee's and, until teacher's came and ruined, never called people for breakin' rules.

i think the parents dont really care much about their own kids, thats why theyre the way they are now, well thats my opinion

Kastere, firstly, the statement, "Look what it has done to me" Was meant to trap people like Ghost into agreeing with me, and also, I wasn't serious, also, just look it up in google, there are plenty of cases of children and teenagers getting beaten up, and isolated cases of 17 year olds getting beaten up. Sure it doesn't happen alot, but it still happens.
Look, I know it may seem like a good disciplining system, but there are plenty of other ways to punnish a kid.
Oh and I agree, teachers influence you too, aswell as your freinds, in fact, everything that a child remembers when he/ she grows up is going to have an effect in what they have become.

If the stupid parents that go as far as to beat their children that badly, then these laws aren't going to stop them at all. That kind of thing isn't the reasonable, discipline we're talking about, it's abusive parents. That's something quite different. Most parents are going to be reasonable with their children. It seems to me that Mudling here doesn't seem to understand that there's a difference between reasonable discipline and child abuse here. OddjobAbe has a point.

Look, this is getting off the toppic on kids in general, should I just create a new toppic about child dicsipline and beatings.
In Answering the above statements:
But my point Zerox, is that what if they think they're being resonable and they're not. Yes, I know OddjobAbe has a point, actually we all do.
Also, if you're talking to me, why do you refer to me in 3rd person (Am I denied even being talked to :P).

*Summing up*
For now, I'll say ok, I know there is a difference, but I still think that beating a child is wrong, no matter the circumstances. But I guess it all comes down to the fact that we trust parents knowing what's best for their child, but for most cases, they don't, becuase their own feelings get in the way.

I know it makes us feel better when a smug little bastard who annoyed you is getting beaten up by their parents (I actually feel guilty though), but I still think it's better to get a kid to apologise, and fix/ mend what they've brocken/ wronged rather than beating the crap out of them, sure, they may need a little persuasion, but it by no means has to be physical.
Also, how does beating the shit out of your kid translate to: Don't hit anyone ever again?
I'm sorry, but hitting someone becuase they hit someone else doesn't make too much sence to me, you're not going to teach them anything, other than to fear you.

*Main point*
We need to get to the source of the problem, as I said before. Beating them realy doesn't teach them anything, but to fear you, they won't be bad while you're around, and when you can find out about it, but if they can get away with it, they'll do it. You need to show them what they do is wrong. That's why plenty of people go around cleaning up, and telling kids to fix their ties in order to please teachers, but when their backs are turned, they're out kicking the shit out of some innocent boy.

The discipline treatment doesn't work, it just get's rid of the symptons, you haven't removed the bomb, you've just removed the fire (which sets it alite), but at the end of the day, your kid is still screwed up, if not more.

Exactly, it gets them to fear you. Therefore, they will not hit someone again, as they fear that you will hit them for doing so. I take it you're one of these 'if someone hits you, don't hit them back but reason' people, aren't you?

No, as long as there is a threat of them hitting them, they won't hit someone again, but if the parent is gone, there's nothing stopping them.
You haven't changed their morals, all you've done is made sure you don't see the problem, so in your eyes, it doesn't exist.
You have to draw it out, and stab it at it's heart, figurativly speaking.

We need a WWIII. Fucking bring little shits into line

AND WE'LL ALL DIE LOL

People seem to be retarded and not understand the border between "Correcting", "Hitting" and "Beating the crap out of".

Mudling: Several kids have died from being hit by their parents? So you're comparing a corrective smack on the back of the head to a bunch of parents who dropkick their kids out the 70th floor window while they are asleep? Nice argument there man.

When we say "Hitting" we do not mean that you should throw your kid all over the livingroom, or throw him infront of a car, or rearrange his face with a bat. By hitting, we mean a small 'tap' on the head or the butt or the hand or the arm or whatever. Something that hurts enough for the kid to think twice before pulling shit like that again. Kid's arn't stupid. If a kid throws his food on the floor you warn him once. If he does it again you warn him again. If he's lucky het gets a final warning and after that you take your kid and give him a smack somewhere where it hurts (and continues to hurt for a while after that). After giving him a smack you tell him why you smacked him and that you will smack him again if he throw more food on the floor. And average 3 to 10 year old will listen to this and stop being a jerk because they don't wanna be smacked again because it hurts.

Now take a kid who also throws his food on the floor but who's parents just constantly give him warnings. He still does it after the third warning, then what? Send him up to his room? Be his guest, all his toys are there. He can entertain himself long enough there until you decide to let him off again. Kids arn't stupid and will see through their parents punishments after one or two times. After putting your kid on the stairs for being bad twice, the third time he's gonna see what happens if he just goes off the stairs. And then what are you gonna do? Tell him to go back? Once kids discover a weakness they will exploit it. Once they see that being sent up to their room is the worst you can do, they will try you to your very limits.

In short: A kid knows damnwell when he's doing something wrong if he's been warned about it before.
A kid who gets smacked will think "wait, if I do this now then my dad is going to smack me. Better not do it, not worth the trouble."
A kid who gets sent to his room wil think "If I do this now their gonna send me up to my room or something, but throwing my sisters piggybank out the window is just way to funny, it's worth it."

And don't make the mistake of underestimating kids. Just because they can't to math yet or have a mature debate or something doesn't mean their stupid.

Haha, yes, altough shooting down hoards of kids by your feet would be incredible fun. :D
That's it, I'm starting a new thread specifically on child beatings.
*Edit* Ok, started a new thread on it, so we can get back to the general bitching of kids here.
Now Havoc, I skimmed over your post, I'm short on time, but the term beating doesn't imply a smack on the back of the head (Altough if I middle aged strong man, as alot of fathers are, did that to a five year old boy or girl, I know that would realy hurt), no, it's implying that a child is repeatedly hit several times with force (at least, it's implied by the way we use the word), and the child is undoubedly hurt from this (which is exactly the point), and quite often, children carry scars from this (Nearly every adult I know from the beating era has some kind of purple bruise or scars where they were hit). In saying that, I ask you, do you think it's humane to hit a defenceless human being, for a crime that won't even get them fined by our police. And most kids that do get caught and punnished are the good behaving ones that made an honest mistake, whilst the naughty ones are experianced at getting away with it.
Now I'll leave the rest of my comments to the other thread, unless everyone would rather talk about it here.

Disipline in early life = a rebel in later life

All teenagers rebel, thats in their nature.

Really? I never rebelled.

And I was never spanked either. :pirate:

You rebelled, you just think you didn't because you thought you were always right. Believe me every teenager is like that, spanked or not.

People should just stop getting kids altogether!

I don't know how teens acted 10 or so years ago (I was only 5 back then). But I agree, most are complete assholes, it is even more so when another poor soul believes differently. Then again my experiences as a fifteen-year-old agnostic living in the Bible Belt might have greatly impacted my views.

Edit: I took an off topic question off of here :)

What specific age are you talking about?
Or is it in general?
Anyway, I'm 13, and I too have noticed the bratty kids.
You know what I hate the most?
Seeing a 9-11 year old girl, in the mall, acting like she's 15.
They are complete and utter brats and bitches.
Idk, it's just something about them.
A way to tell they are a bitch by quick glance?
Look for a big purse with make-up, and look for a cell-phone.
Seriously, wtf. You don't need a cell-phone.
And, this is boys and girls, no matter what age,
can someone tell me why people TEXT instead of calling?
Why not call the person and tell them, instead of
frantically searching for the letter "h"?

Wolfie has wondered this as well. I guess it's easier for them to break up with their screw buddies over text.
Also, does the "boys and girls no matter what age" include adults? My parents and one of my aunts text each other all then time and send pictures of grown-up things that gives me nightmares (such as a face that looks like it has a penis nose :( ).

I much prefer text and always have because I fucking hate talking on the telephone. Why is everyone so conservative about txt messaging vs. calling? Obviously you shouldn't break up with someone through a txt, but I'm not gonna call someone just to say "HI MEET ME AT X LOCATION AT Y TIME".

Then again I'm not 13, people with cellphones under the age of 14 is a bit overkill

I really hate it when people have their nose stuck their phone 24/7.... My sister does it constantly... We're in the middle of doing something together. but OH! SHe has to check the message se just got or she will have withdrawal symptoms. Fucking addicted if you as me. It's rude though. Then she spends 5 minutes having to text back an forth and then she gets back to me.

Not necessarilly. When I was an adolescent, I never rebelled, and I didn't always think I was right. But that might just be because of my upbringing. I had (and still do have) very strict morals.

Then again, my friends said I was a 'meganerd' because of my interests. I might just be a bit of an oddball.

This is what's happenning to kids these days, proof that it's all tv's fault:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BewhKk_rBo0
There's actually alot fo these, haven't watched any of the other "reviews", so don't know if it's the same kid, or several others, but this is what is happening to the new generation *shivers*.

Oh, and don't ask me how I found this.

Think that might confuse the child a bit?

I don't think there's any ultimatum on this type of issue (smackin' them kids). Everything depends on everything else. In conclusion, God bless America.