[REDACTED]

Macs do look nice though, I just hate the OS.

I creeped out me media teacher when I asked if I could feel his disk drive. I meant it literally, you dirty bastards.

It’s a fucking operating system. Oh look, I can install and uninstall apps at my leisure, customize its appearance, and accomplish typical desktop tasks!

I bought a Mac because I was sick of my old, cheap pile of junk pre-built PC. I’m enjoying the extra little details that OSX has which Windows lacks, I’m running all the apps I need flawlessly, and it’s running on a pretty airtight set of hardware.

I’ve got a huge monitor with great color fidelity, a keyboard and mouse which are totally wireless without taking up USB slots, built-in wi-fi, plenty of ports, and a pretty nice set of speakers with good bass.

Was it expensive? Yes. But the extra OS functionality, the sleek hardware design (this iMac has a ridiculously small footprint on my desk compared to my old PC), and the nice integration of everything into a minimalist form factor was worth it.

And I didn’t have to source a whole bunch of parts, then stick them all together.

I’m happy with the damn thing and I knew exactly what I was buying. You don’t like Macs? Fine, but get the stick out of your ass – I’m not going around criticising your choice of OS.

Depends what PC you were talking about, some PC's are much better than Macs, most aren't, but you see My point.

Don’t get me wrong, if you take the time to sit down and build a PC yourself you can absolutely come up with a more powerful machine than any Mac, and probably at a reasonable price.

With a Mac you pay for the OS and the design of the hardware, and you get a decent—but not top-of-the-line—set of specs.

Stuff for lazy

Stop being so assmad.
You yourself admitted that building your own PC is a better way to go, which is exactly the advice I'm giving. If you're pooperpeeved over being called a sucker for investing in what a guy on the internet considers to be an overpriced crapbox, then either your skin is thin as meringue, or you know I'm right.

It's not like I'm indoctrinating him against Macs, just stating the facts. Just to be a good sport, I'll list both the cons and pros of Macs based on my experiences with them.

Pros:
Apple has a large and well-rounded tech support community, and their computers come with - at the very least - the promise of great graphics, stability, ease of use (for some), and sexy looking hardware with good onboard sound and video capabilities. They rarely overheat or freeze, and are whisper quiet (if you're on a newer model).

Cons:
They are way overpriced, especially considering you can get your hands on a custom rig that is (>) or (=) the power of a good Mac. It is incompatible with countless programs, file extensions, and executions unless you jump through all kinds of silly hoops to override the system's assumption that the user is a braindead monkey. Also, and this is entirely my personal opinion, the interface is annoying as balls.

In a nutshell, Macs are the ideal computer for people who don't know how to use computers and like Geek-Chic technology. If you're a guy with disposable income who isn't going to be doing anything too wild, then go for it.

He said that he could potentially build a better PC for less money. That's not the be all and end all of a better computer for everyone. If you weren't willing to build your own PC I would definitely recommend a Mac. As you said, they're also probably a bit better for people with low computer skills.

He's 14 and any computer he gets will likely be coming from his parents. If they aren't giving you a spending cap, then buy the fanciest shmanciest piece of hardware you can find. That's my last bit of advice. :3

Macs are PCs.

Technically yes, but it's universally accepted to refer to them as separate entities.

It may be ubiquitous, but it's ubiquitous bullshit. It helps perpetuate the irritating notions that Apple is somehow apart from and superior to other PC manufacturers and that Windows is the default OS.

I think even Windows loyalists are okay with differentiating Macs from PC for the exact opposite reason; Macs are inferior.

But then Linux is often differentiated from PC as well.

Find a nice PC you like maybe, or do you still want a laptop, anyway i was going to suggest finding out how much your current laptop costs, then finding a decent pc around the same price and then sell laptop and buy PC. (Copy all data onto USB first though.)

My laptop won't be worth shit now, compared to the rig I want.

If they're not buying it, JG's parents might.

What you need to get music software to run efficiently, especially if you're going to be running huge sound libraries, is a really good processor. Nothing less than quad core, 2500k, with hyper-threading.

It’s funny, because you see all I did was make a flippant suggestion that Nepsotic “get a Mac”. It was you who decided to sperg out about how Macs are awful awful things, for ... some reason.

Think you’ll find I suggested that you could build a more powerful computer. I never used the word better in the way you suggest.

As for the status of my skin, it’s pretty thick. I think you’re being incredibly close-minded, dismissive and snide however.

Your “facts” stink heavily of biased opinion. Might wanna check that.

Which is exactly what I said.

Problem: you’re judging the prices based purely on hardware specs, ignoring build quality, convenience, and ergonomic design; and the fact that a custom-built PC cannot run OS X.

Purely on specs, yes you can build a PC with superior hardware, no doubt. But will it have as good build quality, will it be as quiet, will it take up the same amount of space, will it have so much out-of-the-box functionality, will it have all the same “little details” as a Mac?

It runs every browser except IE natively, runs Adobe apps, there’s a version of MS Office (and an Apple-made suite in competition), Steam, Skype, Twitter apps, IM apps, and a ton of design/web development/creative industry-related apps. It’s true that Mac apps are outnumbered by Windows apps (especially in the games department), but the general consensus is that the majority of bases are covered and Mac apps generally make up their lack of quantity with quality.

Oh, and I can create a partition for Windows. There’s a built-in feature for that.

You know Macs handle files in exactly the same ay as Windows, right? If file extension is linked with application > file opens in application.

I have no clue what the hell you mean by this. I open apps, move windows around, manage my files, do all kinds of shit in exactly the same way I would in Windows. I don’t know what kind of hoops you’re talking about, so please do explain.

The interface is not perfect; no interface is. However, it does feature a hell of a lot of shortcuts, utilities and hidden shit which Windows does not. I can cite a few if you’d like?

Macs are just as capable as Windows PCs, stop touting them as some kind of “baby’s first puter”.

My initial response was just as flippant. It's the internet, of course I'm going to sperg out. People don't talk this way in real life.

Regardless, buying a new PC, especially one you're going to be using for artistic purposes, is a decision that shouldn't be made lightly. I made my initial point (albeit churlishly) that building his own would be the best choice for price+usability. Plus, do you know how much pussy Nep would get if the ladies found out he was building his own rigs since he was 14? Oh, lawd.

It's a two-way street. Yes, Macs are great computers if you're only using them to browse, stream movies, and listen to music. They have great picture, sound, and speed. However, if that's all you're going to be doing with your PC, then you might as well get something far less expensive.

Macs may be as good as Windows at handling more complex tasks, but certainly not better, and OS-X allows for very little customization should you need to elevate to more complex tasks or run more obscure programs and filetypes. It's an operating system specifically designed to not be tampered with, because it's specifically marketed to people who don't know how or won't need to.

If Mac is indeed superior to other PC models, then it's by a negligible amount that's not worth the insane price. And yes, it is insane. Versus a Toshiba W7 laptop with almost all the same specifications and graphical capabilities plus a larger screen.

"Build quality" depends on your opinion. I determine build quality as the level of customization a pre-built allows. Apples, Acers, and many other pre-builts make it a chore, if not impossible, to adjust adjust/upgrade internal hardware without either voiding your warranties or having to rely on the paid services of a technician. This is where Mac's streamlined design comes at a disadvantage.

To answer your other questions; yes, you can achieve all of those things for less than what you would pay for a pre-built Apple computer, and by a significant margin if you're a smart shopper.

It requires you to know how to assemble the parts, of course. Learning what parts fit together. I managed to learn these things in one afternoon on Google. A little extra knowledge and elbow grease still beats the price of laziness.

Let's not forget that Macs - for no reason I can think of other than to make money through 'specializing' their hardware - does not embrace many industry standards such SATA, HDMI, and HD optical drives (which is especially ironic given that Mac's are touted as the leading "movie" computer). This may have changed recently, the last Mac I used was at least a year old.

As for space, Macs are indeed the winner for taking up the least amount of space, but the difference is maybe a square foot at most. An extra foot of space isn't worth an extra 500 dollars. Not even if you live in a shoebox.

I'm not comparing to Windows specifically, just to be clear. I've been teaching myself Linux lately, and I could make a laundry list of why Linux is better than Windows.

Mac can read all the standard file types, from what I've experienced. But again, taking into consideration that Nep will be using music-making software like Ableton, which uses VST libraries, DLLs, VOBs, and packaged files that are typically not compatible with OS-X, he's going to run into trouble. I could be wrong, I haven't used Ableton specifically, but I've used similar software and many of their components are not supported by Macs.

OS-X's onboard media software and interface is bloatware that takes up twice as much space as it should because of it's more aesthetic than anything. Without installing Mac-specific drivers and plug-in components (which also tend to take up more space than their standard OS counterparts), Mac is only capable of reading about half the file extensions it normally could. That is one of the "silly hoops" I was referring to.

Again, if you're not going to be using your Mac for anything too complicated, this probably won't be an issue.

Sorry for the textwall. TLDR: Even if Macs were superior to other machines in every way, they're still not worth the price. That's my biggest beef with them. If I didn't have the savvy or resources to build my own, I'd still go with Windows.

Is this a thing that's happening? Does it have to?

Oh, and I forget the lack of right-click. That was one of my biggest peeves. Yeah, you can still copy/paste and access a file's properties, but with only half the efficiency. Not to mention the issues this poses in programs like Photoshop and probably Ableton.

I know Mac has two-click mouses now, but from what I understand, there's still no actual right-click.

Yeah, if you only want a computer for basic media tasks you can go either way. What exactly is wrong with spending more money for a higher quality set of components, even if the tasks accomplished are identical?

Except I’ve seen plenty of comments with regards to docking around with Terminal? Or apps which alter replace OS functions?

Are the ergonomics the same? Is the hardware of equal build quality? Are the speakers as good? Does the keyboard have the same level of media controls and OS integration? Does the trackpad have as good/any multitouch and OS integration? How much bloatware does it come with? Does it come with OS X? What built-in wireless connectivity does it have? Is the battery life equal? Is it built as slim? How’s the pixel density?

You … do know that isn’t what build quality is? Like, at all?

You’re comparing hardware upgrading and customisation with build quality. These are separate concepts.

So, and let me clarify this, you can buy a computer with OS X preinstalled, with no bloatware, with decent-spec hardware components, inside a robust slimline casing that isn’t made of plastic, which runs whisper silent, with good monitor colours and great speakers, with completely wireless and port-free peripherals, with good ergonomic design, for less than the price of an equivalent Mac?

Down to personal taste. I have a couple of friends who take the time to put together their PCs. I personally don’t feel the need to, and I appreciate that a Mac “just works” without me having to plug the right parts together in the right way.

That would be because they’re hellbent on promoting Thunderbolt – which adapts to pretty much all other cable types. Which, yes, Apple sells to you at a premium.

Also this iMac has a SATA drive. It’s right there in the About This Mac window, plain as day.

Personally I went from a small form factor PC and a standalone monitor to an iMac. The iMac base takes up less space than the old monitor alone, and that’s before we take into account the old base unit and the mass of cable behind the setup. That’s a couple of square feet, and it makes a helluva difference to my desk. Maybe desk space isn’t an issue for you, fine, but it makes a difference to me.

Pretty sure sound editing is the one of those industries where the vast majority of industry veterans use Macs. But of course all that software is incompatible.

Next you’ll tell me InDesign relies on files that Macs don’t support.

I’m sorry, what? My Mac has a CD/DVD player, an SD card reader, a wi-fi connector, a Bluetooth connector, an Ethernet port, and USB slots. It can handle all of these types of devices out of the box.

The “aesthetic” you‘re talking about doesn’t exactly count as bloatware because it doesn’t affect the performance. At all.

What exactly is complicated to you? Using application-specific proprietary file formats? Because hey, there’s Mac versions or alternatives to almost every kind of app you could think of. Is Ableton supported? I have no idea, but it’s far from the only sound editor out there, and many of them have Mac versions available! Holy shit.

Then what have I been doing with my second clicker this whole time?

Christ, apparently we really do have to do this.

Don’t tell me you don’t like nerd fights.

Pretty boring, actually.

OANST loves nerdfights. Almost as much as he loves Dr. Who.

Buying something at a capacity you won't use for double the money is exactly the kind of consumer hook that a smart shopper avoids. Go bare bones and work your way up. Like I said, if you have disposable income, this isn't really an issue. I consider this a moot point though, as I still don't think a Mac's advantages are worth the sticker price anyway.

That I've built my own rig for about 600 that rivals a 1200 dollar Mac in function, customization, and graphical capabilities is why I will always recommend building your own first.

I also think the ability to customize both the hardware and software without limits or additional price is the ace in the hole. Windows offers this more than Mac, and Linux offers this more than both. There is no argument here.

Still easier to accomplish in Windows or Linux.

Nearly everything you listed amounts to practically nothing. This is exactly what I mean by paying extra for stuff that makes an insignificant difference. But I'll be a sport and hit you point for point.

- All computers are ergonomically sound. Some are bigger/clunkier than others. As with all technology, you get more stability with bigger and hardier hardware. They are all exactly as large as they need to be. In this case, it's a laptop that weighs about the same.

- You have no control over the build quality of your hardware. You don't know where it comes from if you're buying pre-built, and therein lies the opportunity to get screwed. Apple can charge you whatever they want for shitty parts, and is partly why they have such fat profit margins. Unless you open the laptop yourself (which as I said before, is more difficult with streamlined designs and voids your warranty, making the company no longer liable if they did fuck you over) and have the savvy to identify the quality of the parts yourself, you will never know what you're getting. Apple is clever in that some industry hardware is incompatible with their builds, so you have to buy stuff made specifically by them for a nominal fee.

- See point two.

- Keyboard is standard on all machines. The only major difference is that Mac labels theirs differently and key placement is slightly different. Both have the same amount of OS integration and both have shortcuts and hotkeys. A keyboard is a keyboard. If you get a shitty keyboard, see point two. Be it Mac or PC, all pre-builts can potentially fuck you over with slipshod hardware.

- See point three. Replace "keyboard" with "trackpad".

- Bloatware is negligible. Unless they strap you with something really nasty like Norton. Toshiba is pretty good about not saddling you with unwanted programs in my experience.

- No. It comes with Windows 7. OS X is not inherently superior, and you don't need it.

- See point two.

- See point one.

- Pixel density is also negligible. Any monitor built after 2009 has as much pixel density as anyone will ever need, unless you're editing super duper HD video. In which case, you're still better off building custom.

The quality of a build is only as good as the parts put in it. The ability to change parts that may become damaged or obsolete over time is a mark of quality in any machine, because it guarantees a long lifespan and doesn't try to screw you over by forcing you to replace the whole thing. You can upgrade the individual components as they become outdated as opposed to buying a whole new machine every few years. If you're not chincy with the mobo, a custom rig can last you 20+ years, barring a complete format overhaul in the near future.

The actual pieces you put in can, of course, vary in quality. Chances are if you're attempting to build your own machine, you also took the time to understand the quality/price ratio. If not, then go pre-built, but buyer beware.

More plug-ins than drivers, though I've had trouble finding Mac-compatible drivers for hook ups I've used for video and sound editing. This issue may have been rectified by now. Company programmers are usually pretty cool about developing universal drivers these days.

SATA or eSATA? I always get the two confused, and I forget which one is better. If it's the former, you win.

Everything but the OS X thing, yes, not that I would want OS X on my custom rig anyway. OS X is designed to hold your hand, and regarded as superior because of the negative stigmas created by Vista, which have long been extinguished by W7 (and partially reemerged by W8). Even then there are ways to install OS X if you insist on it. My techno-geek friend did a custom build with an OS X, but he said it was more trouble than it was worth. There's always a way.

Then what I heard was false. Good on them. Still, something has to be said for the fact that it took them this long to add in a right-click function.

While you are correct on Mac-supported alternatives of major applications, they are also often more expensive and take up more space. That one's nitpicky though, so you can have it.

I know from experience there are a few non-proprietary file formats that Mac does not recognize. I couldn't tell you which ones without Googling it, and I'm happy to say I'm not that dedicated to this debate.

Ableton and it's base components are supported by Mac, Im sure. I cannot speak for VST plug-ins and the like. They may be Ableton-supported, but not Mac-supported, which is a paradox I've encountered at least once or twice.

I'm going to conclude by repeating that custom is the way to go, unless you're a vehement Mac loyalist who absolutely has to have OS-X. If you want to provide me with a price cap, Nep, I can probably find a list of parts for you and tell you how to put it together. I promise it will be as good or better than a Mac for less money. It's the least I can do for hijacking your blog with this massive spergasm. <3

*looks at the lenght of the comment*

Take that, Manco!

Sorry to bring the inevitable car analogy out, but this is like suggesting you can build your own car from spare parts for cheaper. Yes, you probably can, and I have no doubt it would go faster than an assembly-line car.

But I don’t want that headache. I don’t want to shop around for parts, comparing tech specs, review scores, online retailers, etc. If you want to, be my guest, I’m sure you’ll be happy with your mechanical monster.

But I’d prefer to spend a little more to get something ready from the word go. It has decent—albeit not the best—guts, feels nice to use, looks attractive, and is perfectly capable of accomplishing the tasks I need it to do. Life isn’t about saving money.

Fine, I’m sure it is. I haven’t needed to do a whole ton of customisation on either Windows or OS X.

I won’t bother responding point-for-point because this statement alone makes me realise I’d be wasting my time.

All I’ll say is that a machine I use for entertainment, hobby and work purposes doesn’t just need to work, it needs to feel nice to use. It’s about aesthetics, ergonomics, ease of use, simplicity. If you think those aren’t important in a machine you use for several hours every day I don’t know what to tell you.

Again, it’s down to personal choice. I don’t want to run around replacing parts all the time, and I’m not too bothered about saving money.

As far as it being a mark of quality? Nope. All it says is “if this breaks you can rip it out” – it says nothing of the quality of the part.

Macs consistently score highly in customer satisfaction polls, and are generally regarded as robust machines with long lifespans – which is why even older models have high resale prices, and why the refurbished market is so strong.



You keep saying that OS X holds your hand, but I’ve experienced nothing of the sort. The main differences between OS X and W7 are that OS X has a nice selection of additional shortcuts, built-in apps, and GUI features which W7 lacks. But none of those constitute hand-holding, least not as in my definition of the term.

They’ve supported right-clicking for years. They just designed mouses which didn’t capitalise on it.

I’ve never heard of or experienced this.

I don’t know anything about this either. Seems to support all the file formats I encounter on a daily basis, but then I don’t delve into sound editing and whatnot.

Anyway no one’s going to respond to this now because it’s off the front page, so nyer.

No it isn't?

Personally I prefer PC, they're just easier to use for me and the stuff I do, well, MINE isn't but you see what I mean.

I'm sure though, if I used a Mac for a good couple of days and got to grips with it, I could learn to appreciate it.

Shut your fucking face, Cammy.