Mos Def Force Fed a la Guantánamo Convict Style

[STM]

So this is something that's really trending in the news at the moment:



Basically, Mos Def is a famous rapper (for those unaware) who's experienced the procedure of being force fed in an attempt to highlight what the American government is doing.

From the video description:

As Ramadan begins, more than 100 hunger-strikers in Guantánamo Bay continue their protest. More than 40 of them are being force-fed. A leaked document sets out the military instructions, or standard operating procedure, for force-feeding detainees. In this four-minute film made by Human Rights organisation Reprieve and Bafta award-winning director Asif Kapadia, US actor and rapper Yasiin Bey (formerly known as Mos Def), experiences the procedure.

So, opinions anyone? I personally think this is an abhorrent way to treat another human, whatever the crime they are guilty of. America is supposed to be a beacon of democracy or some shit, so why are they doing this to people?

[Bullet Magnet]

The actual agreement between government and citizen is "justice and liberty for some, miniature American flags for others".

[OANST]

Oh, these aren't citizens.

[STM]

And that makes it okay.

[Bullet Magnet]

Be assured, America gets all the attention but every developed nation in the world does this in secret. That doesn't make it okay, it only means that the sort people capable of getting into power should not be allowed to have that power.

We live in the world in which the largest arms dealers on the planet hold permanent seats on the UN Security Council. "Fucked up" is quite literally the best we can possibly expect from our leaders.

[OANST]

And that makes it okay.

Didn't say that. Just pointing out that they're foreign so we don't have to give a fuck.

[Manco]

I hate the attitude of “they aren’t from our country, so fuck ‘em”. We’re all people.

[OANST]

It ain't great, but it exists everywhere.

[Wings of Fire]

It's disgusting. They march into our concentration camps, using our taxes and then they have the nerve to complain when we try to keep them alive.

Fuck'em all.

[OANST]

It is pretty ungrateful of them. We don't even charge them rent.

[STM]

We all the seem to agree really, how boring, someone find Jacob to spice things up!

I'm personally against any form or torture or cruel punishment, doesn't matter the crime, you could be a petty thief or Hitler, no one should face such disgusting treatment.

[OddjobAbe]

This is how I have to feed all the time in my decrepit state.

Really, I don't know what I can say that wouldn't be obvious to any good human being. America, like many places, is highly adept at demonstrating hypocrisy, and not only to treat a person in the way you see above, but out of disrespect for their beliefs does nothing to help their image, especially not in the eyes of those who they claim are their enemies.

[OANST]

Yeah, but they're Muslims. They're kind of gross. Barely people at all.


Honestly, I do think Muslims are gross, but I think that of all religious people.

[Bullet Magnet]

Farms treat livestock raised for slaughter better than these people are treated by their captors. Who is worse?

[OANST]

Well..... don't get me wrong. I won't condone these techniques. They are awful, and need to be stopped. But the people they are being used on have either murdered innocents in some of the most cowardly ways possible, or helped in the planning of those murders. Soooo.... if you want to compare levels of gray to black...yeah, they're worse. And to be honest, they probably deserve far worse. However, they have gone through no court system, and a civilized world cannot be brought about by Draconian tactics. It's all terrible, and everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves. But yeah, the indiscriminate child killers are worse than the people who torture them to get information to stop more indiscriminate child killing. Definitely.

[Vyrien]

Farms treat livestock raised for slaughter better than these people are treated by their captors. Who is worse?

Foie Gras?

It's cruel whether done to human or animal.

[OANST]

See, I took his meaning to be that the captors are worse than the detainees.

[STM]

Well..... don't get me wrong. I won't condone these techniques. They are awful, and need to be stopped. But the people they are being used on have either murdered innocents in some of the most cowardly ways possible, or helped in the planning of those murders. Soooo.... if you want to compare levels of gray to black...yeah, they're worse. And to be honest, they probably deserve far worse. However, they have gone through no court system, and a civilized world cannot be brought about by Draconian tactics. It's all terrible, and everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves. But yeah, the indiscriminate child killers are worse than the people who torture them to get information to stop more indiscriminate child killing. Definitely.

What about the convicts that have been found, and no doubt will be found in the future, to be innocent? No one deserves such treatment, you conduct a trial in a civil manner and then you can put them in prison in a civil manner, treating barbarism with barbarism is pointless and destroys your image as a moral western country.

Also, I find what you said about Muslims to be gross as a bit worrying, providing you were being serious. I agree that organised religion is a predominantely bad thing but I know plenty of Muslims and some of them are far far nicer and more charitable than the irreligious people I know, and they talk less about their faith than some of the atheists I know who complain about people of faith too.

[OANST]

What about the convicts that have been found, and no doubt will be found in the future, to be innocent? No one deserves such treatment, you conduct a trial in a civil manner and then you can put them in prison in a civil manner, treating barbarism with barbarism is pointless and destroys your image as a moral western country.

Also, I find what you said about Muslims to be gross as a bit worrying, providing you were being serious. I agree that organised religion is a predominantely bad thing but I know plenty of Muslims and some of them are far far nicer and more charitable than the irreligious people I know, and they talk less about their faith than some of the atheists I know who complain about people of faith too.

First part is pretty much exactly what I already said. Thanks for backing up my point, I think?

Second part was hyperbole just for fun. Because fun is in short supply, so don't take away my fun.

[Bullet Magnet]

See, I took his meaning to be that the captors are worse than the detainees.

In some ways they are. The detainees have not been convicted, and the corner that the US has painted itself into means they never will be. America has not been consistent in its prosecution of its "war" on terror, and Guantanamo Bay is the focus point of the consequences. The problem is this: if you treat them as criminals then it is only a law and order question, you are not fighting a war. But if you are fighting a war then these are enemy soldiers, which means you cannot try them as criminals. What we get is people being held as criminals but being prepared for a military tribunal. If they ever get to that point they will be able to say "thank you for admitting that I am a soldier" when the whole point is that the Geneva convention says that they're not because they target civilians. Extraordinary rendition is not allowed and neither can they be returned to their country of origin in case they are mistreated by their own governments (would that be worse, I wonder?). Which leaves two other options: take no prisoners or let them all go.

The situation is utterly impossible in every respect and they should have seen this coming to begin with.


We end up with a situation where people are effectively being indefinitely detained with no legal rights whatever, under brutal conditions in which torture is the order of the day. We all know that torture does not get you reliable intelligence, it just gets you information that the captive thinks you want to hear with no way to verify it. Even an innocent captive will incriminate themselves and spin a wild tale of intrigue and manoeuvres to make the pain go away, and with enough such experiences may actually come to believe their own fabrications. Of course, without trials we have no idea if there are innocent people in there are we are not allowed to find out.

Ultimately we have people holding a great deal of power over other individuals and breaking both national and international law to which they are signatories and we have only their word that it is justified and absolutely nothing preventing any one of us from being put in their ourselves.

I think that maybe those who claim to be on our side in this are worse because we hold them to a higher standard and they deliberately fail to meet it. And I doubt there are many crimes that those detained are accused of that our own militaries have no themselves committed by some means in the prosecution of their various wars, and as we have seen, those on our side who expose such crimes are quickly silenced and imprisoned themselves.

Honestly, I'd not feel safe in the company of either faction. But only one faction already has power over my life.

[OANST]

In some ways they are. The detainees have not been convicted, and the corner that the US has painted itself into means they never will be. America has not been consistent in its prosecution of its "war" on terror, and Guantanamo Bay is the focus point of the consequences. The problem is this: if you treat them as criminals then it is only a law and order question, you are not fighting a war. But if you are fighting a war then these are enemy soldiers, which means you cannot try them as criminals. What we get is people being held as criminals but being prepared for a military tribunal. If they ever get to that point they will be able to say "thank you for admitting that I am a soldier".


We end up with a situation where people are effectively being indefinitely detained with no legal rights whatever, under brutal conditions in which torture is the order of the day. We all know that torture does not get you reliable intelligence, it just gets you information that the captive thinks you want to hear with no way to verify it. Even an innocent captive will incriminate themselves and spin a wild tale of intrigue and manoeuvres to make the pain go away, and with enough such experiences may actually come to believe their own fabrications. Of course, without trials we have no idea if there are innocent people in there are we are not allowed to find out.

Ultimately we have people holding a great deal of power over other individuals and breaking both national and international law to which they are signatories and we have only their word that it is justified and absolutely nothing preventing any one of us from being put in their ourselves.

I think that maybe those who claim to be on our side in this are worse because we hold them to a higher standard and they deliberately fail to meet it. And I doubt there are many crimes that those detained are accused of that our own militaries have no themselves committed by some means in the prosecution of their various wars, and as we have seen, those on our side who expose such crimes are quickly silences and imprisoned themselves.

Honestly, I'd not feel safe in the company of either faction. But only one faction already has power over my life.

Mmmm. Slightly hyperbolic, but not much.

To say that torture never gets reliable information is very wrong. It gives you a mixture. Pretty much like any type of interrogation. Tons of useful information has been gotten out of these people by torturing them. That doesn't make it right, but let's not pretend like nothing good has happened because of it. Attacks have been stopped.

Look at it this way. We learned a great deal about hypothermia from the German experiments on Jews (Haha Godwin's Law, bitches!) If you were to say that there was no useful information gotten from those experiments, you would be wrong. They were sick, and they were disgusting, and those who performed are irredeemable. But, you can't say that information wasn't received. Because it was. We want to say that, because it was wrong. But the truth is the truth, regardless of morality, or ethics.

So, you shouldn't ignore the parts of my posts where I say that what the U.S. is doing is wrong, and should be stopped, and should have never happened in the first place, just because I mention that the vast majority of the people having it done to them are terrible, disgusting murderers, or that the reason for doing it is stop more terrible, disgusting murders. Because, again, the truth is the truth, regardless of morality.

[MA]

you're both right. obviously torture is horrible and there is a risk that information may be false/incorrect, but remember there are people who make torture and interrogation their profession, to them it's just a job. these people may not even exist in the official sense, but i imagine such a hazardous job pays well, and for some people that's motive enough. my point being people who are paid to do their job are usually adept at it.

talking of good coming from bad, half the scientists that joined/started NASA were originally working for the Nazi's on their 'space program'. they were pardoned or let off or whatever after the war because suddenly they were useful again as tools to help further a different faction's interests. basically their juicy brains. hypocrisy is everywhere and in everyone.

let's be honest, good and bad really are just points of view at the end of the day. if the Axis Powers had won WW2, or if Genghis Khan just hadn't stopped, or if the Romans had gone for world domination and come off on top, or all three, anything, we would all have very different views on good/bad, morality and ethics generally. that's because history is written by the victors, and we are the readers.

they tell us what is right and wrong, good and bad, because we can't think for ourselves. we're spoonfed their shit up until the point we refuse it, and make our own minds up. that's all governments are for; to keep the majority of the population under control via any means neccessary, and to do so as fucking stealthily and off the record as possible. that way the likelyhood of any unsavoury actions/decisions coming back to haunt them are eliminated, because they never did it. someone else did.

imagine if everyone just rejected their government, there'd be no need for it's existence anymore, that in itself means we're not allowed to do that. too many old men the world never see's chortling in smoking rooms have invested too much of their time and money and life to watch it all disappear. power itself corrupts.

[WolfensteinOdess]

-Post deleted-

[Wings of Fire]

What am I supposed to say to this?

[WolfensteinOdess]

Dunno, what do you want to say ?

[Wings of Fire]

That you should maybe think for yourself rather than spouting slogans that sound like they're out of a Hong Kong knockoff V for Vendetta.

[MA]

let's not forget the Nazi rocket scientists

also they never landed on the moon

EDIT: something similar to this happened when the Allied forces freed prisoners from deathcamps, except they were forced to ration the food given to the starving inmates in case they ate too much and died. the prisoners were moved to a secure area, basically another camp with fences and guards, but it was still chaotic due to the prisoners trying to escape and gorge themselves. to them it was happening all over again. the situation was handled badly.

those camps were kept under wraps due to the mess of the whole situation. people were still dying. so yes BM, our own armed forces are absolutely guilty of similar crimes if you go back in time, likely worse ones. most of the world's nations are. i'd like to say all, but obviously i don't know. i'd hazard a guess and say 'all' with humanity's track record, but it doesn't mean anything.

[Dynamithix]

Human is good but humanity suck.

Beautiful.

[WolfensteinOdess]

Ok, sorry, I delete my post x)

[OANST]

Don't do that. We like having evidence of you being a dumb ass when we want it.