Let's Talk About Abe's Exoddus

[Nepsotic]

So I know that AE is most of your guys' favourite Oddworld game. That makes sense in a lot of ways, but I feel that for all the gameplay improvements it makes (Gamespeak and Quiksave namely) it has too many issues to compete with Oddysee.

We've talked about this at length before but I found a review which perfectly encapsulates the way I feel about Exoddus and so maybe when I refer to Exoddus being boring as shit you'll understand why.

Skip to 24:00 into the video to see exactly what I'm talking about, but if you have free time I recommend you watch the whole thing because this is a really great review, and it's kind of crazy that this guy only has 8 subscribers. He's also done an Oddysee review and an editorial on Oddworld and its problem with comedy. I actually advised the creator to join this forum because he has a lot of interesting points that I haven't actually seen be brought up yet.



So what do you think? Hopefully this gives you a better understanding of why I (and Lorne, apparently) believe Exoddus to be the weakest of the two.

[kjjcarpenter]

Some very interesting points. I'd argue that Exoddus is my favourite game of all time, however, I can absolutely agree with everything this guy is saying.

It's the same reason I think Crash Warped is inferior to Crash 2. There's just too much going on in Warped, too many goals, too many repetitive elements/levels, and instead of just giving the player the basic game mechanics with a few improvements, you're given an entire arsenal of abilities, including a motherfucking bazooka. The whole time-trial element is also kind of moot once you add in the running shoes. It's still an amazing game, but the developers obviously threw everything at the wall and tried to make something grandiose, as opposed to something with heart and soul.

Without the nostalgia goggles, I can see Exoddus having many of these similar issues: Abe has a literal arsenal of tools to fight the Cartel with, yet most of these abilities are only used a handful of time, and implemented poorly:

- The power to heal Mudokons sick from brew? He used it what? Five times? And the only time it was important was when he saved his five friends in Necrum, and in the Brewery once he releases the Mudokons from the Tear X-tractor.
- Shrykull; I distinctly remember only using this power two times in the entire game, so I suppose it's more of an easter egg than anything else.
- The invisibility puzzles don't really do much for me, in hindsight. There's no element of skill; it's just running as fast as you can from one safe platform to the next.
- Possessing the Wildlife. Not really a fan. Even though they correspond with Abe's Gamespeak, I find myself constantly being confused. It's also a gimmick for the first disc, and only plays a minor role in the later game (if at all, I don't really remember).
- The farts. Yeah. Farting is cute. It's a kind of trademark. I don't care for the possession of them though.

There's also a lot of screens that simply exist for Abe to come out of a door, walk across the screen, walk across another screen, and enter another door—specifically in Necrum. They can kindly piss those off. You could argue its an effort to make the world feel bigger, but the backgrounds accomplish that task on there own.

I love the story, but there's definitely improvements to be made. I never really liked the Weirdos appearing to Abe in a sudden dream moments after the first game. The entire opening is severely rushed actually, so it will be great to have that fleshed out in Soulstorm. Abe is also absent from the cutscenes in the second-half of the game, and while I won't be too pleased if we lose the M.O.M. segments, I'd like to see some more of our hapless protagonist as we move forth. He feels way too distant once you reach Feeco.

So despite my affection, I'm all for updating the experience, and I can fully understand the criticism.

(I didn't watch the entire video, so my points might be nothing more than a rehash. I also apologise for the stream of thoughts; there's probably a dozen errors strewn throughout.)

[Jordan]

Honestly I am unable to take off my nostalgia goggles for this game so I can't make a fair judgement on it.

I love Abe's Exoddus. The music, the environments, the cutscenes etc. I've always liked it more than Abe's Oddysee on these fronts. I can always just sit and play the game and feel relaxed, and it brings back memories of me playing it as a kid, which is nice. Personally I find it very difficult to find flaws because of what the game means to me. I'm not one to often let nostalgia cloud judgement but in this case it does. Maybe when SoulStorm is released I can get a different perspective.

[Vlam]

I'm searching for Lanning's interviews concerning Abe's Exoddus. Please help.

[Xavier]

http://oddworldlibrary.net/archives/...es/interviews/

Enjoy...

[Vlam]

http://oddworldlibrary.net/archives/...es/interviews/

Enjoy...

Thank you!

[Havoc]

The reason I like Exoddus over Oddysee is because the narrative is expanded and the locations are actually interesting to visit. I never liked Oddysee because the locations are boring as fuck. RuptureFarms as a location is boring, especially in AO where you can barely even make it out as a meat factory in most screens. And the nature levels in both AO and AE have never captured my interest at all. Whenever I play AE I hate having to play through Necrum and the temples and would much rather just skip to FeeCo, because from that point onward is where all the fun mechanics live.

The narrative in AO has much less going for it, taken at face value the story is incredibly weak. You escape, get power, break back in and rescue everyone. Whereas in AE, there is a much bigger story and the break in to the Brewery is an actual process instead of 5 screens.

I also think the guy in the video completely missed a large part of the intended narrative. The reason Abe goes to Slig Barracks and Bonewerkz is because the Glukkons who can deactivate the gates are located there. They aren't 'random' in that regard.

But I will give him the hubs issue, and that is something I have always complained about. The hubs in AO were already stupid, there is no reason a series of puzzles can't just be a linear path. There is NO added value to returning to a hub all the time. But AE took this to the fucking extreme and especially in the Brewery it just got ridiculous.

But despite all that, AE is still the better game, both from a narratieve and from a gameplay point of view. It may be a bit too long for it's own good, especially near the end. But it makes up for that in so many areas that I can't justify claiming AO as the better title.

[MA]

I never liked Oddysee because the locations are boring as fuck. RuptureFarms as a location is boring, especially in AO where you can barely even make it out as a meat factory in most screens.

i couldn't disagree more. RuptureFarms was supposed to look like a dangerous, alien meat-packing plant and i think they achieved that. there are barrels of meat in the background of most screens, blood-splatters all over the walls, various posters and signs dotted about the factory regarding meat products and meat-processing, meat-grinders are everywhere and a few screens have falling rib cages that you have to dodge or activate once you pull a lever. i don't see how that doesn't look like a meat factory from hell. there's fucking meat and blood all over the place.

also the Stockyards and Free-Fire Zone are so atmospheric and Scrabania is very aesthetically pleasing to me and is a place i would love to go on holiday to. i didn't think they were boring. if anything i thought the most boring location in AO was Monsaic Lines, mainly because not a lot happens there and it isn't that dangerous in comparison to other locations.

[Havoc]

It's iconic, yes. But it's also boring. Compared to places like Necrum Mines and FeeCo Depot, those places never seem boring because the background art is very detailed and deep. RuptureFarms and by extension also the Brewery are constantly the same around every corner.

[Varrok]

I love nearly every screen of AO, and most of the screens in AE, though AE was the one with the biggest number of bland, forgettable screens (Necrum)

[Manco]

Exoddus is my personal favorite game from the main Oddworld storyline (SW is too much of its own beast to really compare to the others). I think the environments feel much more varied and interesting than in AO, the storyline fleshes out more of the world in a way that feels consistent with what AO introduced, and I don’t think I can point to a single gameplay mechanic that doesn’t work well.

I think the largest point in the video that I disagree with is how possessing Paramites and Scrabs makes them less unique and how it makes the gameplay feel more same-y.

Paramites and Scrabs are both still very dangerous when you encounter them, as in most cases you are prevented from possessing them unless the puzzle specifically requires it, and you can’t use possession to break any puzzles you’re not mean to. Their unique abilities are still utilized in puzzles, and they still look, sound and feel like very different and dangerous creatures. If anything, the problem is that too many of the puzzles push Fleeches as the main threat instead of the Paramites and Scrabs themselves.

I can understand why he thinks more possession and Gamespeak-related puzzles in Necrum vaults makes the gameplay more same-y, but I don’t personally agree purely because so many of the puzzles throughout the game rely on you not being able to possess enemies. There’s so much variety in the puzzle structure throughout Exoddus that I don’t think it’s fair to accuse any section of the game from overusing a mechanic.

The criticism of overuse of hubs does make sense, but I think he exaggerates it a little. Feeco is as much a hub as the Monsaic Lines were in AO; he incorrectly stated Bonewerkz uses a hub system when it’s actually a linear level; the Slig Barracks hubs are fairly short in comparison to the rest in the game; and the hubs in general are quite evenly spread out. the Brewery is definitely where the hubs the worst offender though – it could have been mitigated by just trimming a couple of levels out and maybe adding a better indicator of progress between each Zulag, but as it stands it does go on too long.

[Varrok]

I think both games would benefit if the most obvious hub systems (temples, zulags) were dropped entirely in favor of just progressing from one level to another. They don't actually add anything good, except the possibility to do them in random order which doesn't matter at all, because you have to do them all anyway.

[scorptatious]

Exoddus I feel does a fantastic job at expanding on Oddworld's universe. Particularly during the second half of the game. Each of the factories or areas run by Glukkons or Sligs you go to have some part in the whole Brew making process.

Necrum Mines gets the bones, Bonewerks grinds up the bones, Soulstorm uses the bones for the brew, and Fee Co. serves as the middleman via transporting everything from one place to another. It's a very neat way of showing how big the Magog Cartel is, how it works, and how much influence it has on Oddworld.

All that being said, I still prefer Oddysee in terms of story. It's not too heavy of a story, but the usage of visuals, symbolism, atmosphere, and the traditional three act structure made it a very compelling journey for me. Plus I just felt the game was paced a little better overall.

[Holy Sock]

I'm actually genuinely interested in seeing criticism for a game I love. I can totally see an argument structured around Oddysee beinga a natural progression of storytelling and gameplay while Exoddus is almost like a DLC expansion pack that uses its story to loosely justify its progression. I’m gonna split this in two because I got carried away.

Story progression

I haven't watched the whole video, yet. I started at 24:00 as suggested but, so far, his criticism of Exoddus' narrative progression isn't holding up. It seems like he actually didn't pay attention to the game or ignored all the story stones you read throughout.

Now that's a possible critisim. That the game relied on story stones to inform Abe/and thus the player on what his goal is. But the goals are still clear.

For example he says the goal of healing your sick Mudokon buddies trapped in the Necrum Mine ruins to progress from Necrum to the FeeCo Depot is poorly telegraphed. That the goal comes out of nowhere without any setup. However this isn't true. When you first arrive in Necrum you use a bird portal which teleports you to your sick buddies. There you are told that you need to heal them to progress and shutdown SoulStorm Brewery and are teleported to Necrum. In Necrum you are told you need to free the trapped spirits to get this power.

Then you are informed you need the access from the three Executive Glukkons to get into SoulStorm brewery. Not JUST in that cutscene - which is largely there to introduce the villains. All they say is that they're gonna lock the place up tight. It's in the actual FeeCo hub that the player (and thus Abe) learns they need to disengage the main gates.

And, then, there's still the overall goal of shutting down Brew Production. The three acts of Exoddus are much more distinct than Oddysee. Unlike Oddysee there isn't a main antagonist. Perhaps that's another criticism worth exploring? The progression of Abe's goal is what drives the tale - stop the Glukkons digging up Mudokon bones, learn that it's SoulStorm Brew they're making, free their spirits, then tasked to personally shutdown SoulStorm brewery yourself, gain access to the Brewery, destroy the boiler.

In the cutscene with the Three Weirdos Abe also says that "but I've gotta save the Mudokons there first". Which, I guess, justifies the idea of these random smattering of puzzles - each one has Mudokons to rescue which is Abe's secondary goal.

So, yeah, I think there's definitely a clear progression for Abe and justification for the game's structure.

Hubs

Now in regards to hubs. I think he’s missed the mark a little here – or perhaps it comes down to personal preference. I think the FeeCo hub is a perfectly justifiable hub since it’s a train station and I think there’s actually a certain amount of satisfaction returning there after taking down a Glukkon executive. Now you return there 3 times in the game which I don’t think is gratuitous.

Now his criticism of the hubs in Exoddus is problematic, I think, because he gives Oddysee a free pass. Why? Because a couple of the hub levels have their own interior mini-hubs. But this is only a couple of the levels out of how many exactly?

The hub level structure is definitely overused in Exoddus. Nep’s said this before. I’ve never had a problem as, like others have said, nostalgia. I think when you’re a lot younger grinding and repetitive structures aren’t really a problem. If I played the game for the first time today perhaps I’d get tired of it – but it’s certainly a lazy way to progress a game. I can see that.

Slig Barracks, Bonewerkz and the Brewery could have had more of a linear progression in this regard. Although I do wonder if the Hubs give the player a better sense of progression? If there were no hubs in the Brewery would players get frustrated that they have no indication of how far they have to go? Particularly since Exoddus isn’t segmented into levels. There’s no clear The hubs would be a way to do this but keep the game continuously flowing.

Perhaps this is just the problem then. Exoddus has too many hubs. You can only get away with so many (like Oddysee did) but Exoddus just doubled that number without much thought. It’s an interesting question. Games like Limbo work well without hubs. I guess it takes more thought to keep the player interested as opposed to the artificial progression. I’m rambling here. But the point still stands. I think the problems with Hubs extends to Oddysee. There’s just more of them.

Ending

His final summary is good. I certainly think there’s something to be said about that and perhaps the first 24 mins does a better job at putting that across! I’ll actually watch that later cause it’s interesting to see perspectives like this. But after the 24 min mark I don’t think his two main arguments about actual story progression and his problem with the hubs were that interesting. I hope this reads half as decent as it sounded in my empty head.

EDIT: formatting

[JayDee]

I'll post my full two cents about Abe's Exoddus in a little bit, but in reference to the video in Nep's original post I found his description of the Quintology and especially the descriptions of the Oddysee and Exoddus titles a bit peculiar.

He described the Oddysees as being about a single underclass Oddworld species rising up to become a hero, but honestly with Munch's Oddysee I never felt close to that. It was more akin to The Artist Formerly Known As Abe's Super Exoddus Now Featuring The Vocal Talents Of Munch.

[Nepsotic]

Yeah but we all know the shitfest that MO turned into and we're semi-aware of what it was supposed to be.

[STM]

MO was the best MO.

I thought they were both pretty good tbh, Ao and Ae. I've always said the slam-door bit with the spastic mudokons was fucking dumb, as was t-KILL-EM-KILL-EM-KILL-EM-KILL-EM.

[Alf Shall Rise]

AE is the best Oddworld because the line, "Screw you Aslik, you ain't runnin' nothin'," made me laugh when I was about 6 years old.

[Crashpunk]

A lot of what I originally wanted to bring up has already been bought up, so I won't go repeating all the same points over and over.

What I will say though is I think Abe's Exoddus was a fantastic sequel to Abe's Oddysee. It added a lot of new content with the new creatures and I loved how the majority of them were playable. It also did a fantastic job of world building.

In fact, the way Exoddus showed us much more of Oddworld was probably one of the best things about the game. It gave Oddworld a sense of scale. Rather than being centered around a factory in a small part of Oddworld. It went everywhere. Off on a train somewhere else then back again to visit another unique location. I loved it so much. It made it feel like a bigger adventure.

The only locations I wasn't fond of too much were the vaults. Don't get me wrong. They had really good puzzles, a brilliant aesthetic and the mechanic of possessing Scrabs and Paramites was really neat. I just feel it was just a copy/paste of the temples in Oddysee. And I've got the biggest feeling they'll do something to them in SoulStorm. Perhaps combines them into one big temple?

Also yeah, I do agree the game goes go on for a bit too long and some of the areas do feel like filler. FeeCo and The Brewery especially. And even Necrem Mines feels like a drag. But I don't personally mind it too much. But it's definitely a pacing issue.

So I hope SoulStorm they'll revamp the progression, sort out the padding by getting rid off or revamping the different hubs yet still keep every location from the original. I'm going to be pretty upset if a location is missing.

[kjjcarpenter]

AE is the best Oddworld because the line, "Screw you Aslik, you ain't runnin' nothin'," made me laugh when I was about 6 years old.

Profound.

I thought they were both pretty good tbh, Ao and Ae. I've always said the slam-door bit with the spastic mudokons was fucking dumb, as was t-KILL-EM-KILL-EM-KILL-EM-KILL-EM.

Some of those puzzles were a nightmare and probably could have been thought out better. I still get stuck on the "KILL-EM" segments and end up abusing the Quik-save function because I accidentally end up asking the slig to shoot too many times. It's not difficult, just an incessant exercise as you learn when exactly to stop instructing him.

I look forward to not having to do that in the remake. I'd rather have Abe possess the Glukkon, and rather than forcing the player to complete incessant puzzles, have it more like MO. A simple officer, but with a few things to investigate if the player so chooses, such as a computer, a newspaper, additional news segments, etc. Put the Gluks in a position they would ACTUALLY be in, rather than surrounded by a dozen fucking drills and killer slogs, while providing the player with an opportunity to learn more about the state of the world.

Better yet, give the player an option to render Bonewerks destitute by having Director Phleg deposit the factory's funds into a brand new crowdfunding campaign for Lil' Lucky. That'd be kind of cool.

(Maybe.)

[Nepsotic]

The only locations I wasn't fond of too much were the vaults. Don't get me wrong. They had really good puzzles, a brilliant aesthetic and the mechanic of possessing Scrabs and Paramites was really neat. I just feel it was just a copy/paste of the temples in Oddysee

I think the whole Necrum/Vault area was completely useless. It didn't add anything to the story and the whole Scrab/Paramite possession mechanic was just a waste, it didn't have any purpose other than "hey, look what you can do now!"

[kjjcarpenter]

I think the whole Necrum/Vault area was completely useless. It didn't add anything to the story and the whole Scrab/Paramite possession mechanic was just a waste, it didn't have any purpose other than "hey, look what you can do now!"

True. Thinking about it, if Abe fled the mines, wandered Necrum for a few scenes, then found himself in the Weirdo's Crypt, there would be absolutely no sacrifices to the story. Actually, I would very much prefer it.

[Connell]

True. Thinking about it, if Abe fled the mines, wandered Necrum for a few scenes, then found himself in the Weirdo's Crypt, there would be absolutely no sacrifices to the story. Actually, I would very much prefer it.

Whilst I agree the Mudomo and Mudanchee vaults in Exoddus are easily the weakest part of the game, being, as people have said, just plain rehashes of the temples from Oddysee, I feel like there does need to be a larger break in the quest before returning to the solely industrial areas that fill the remainder of the game post-necrum. It would feel quite strange for the majority of the game to be in these industrial establishments. I feel like they just need to add a bit more purpose to Abe's venture through the vaults.

The brewery does come very close to being the weakest part of the game for me, however. I feel like that needs a redesign, more than the Rupture Farms exterior in New N Tasty did. That was perfect before, I've always disliked the interior of the brewery, and the insanity of some of it's puzzles. The endless supply of Glukkons is just so weird considering how much the rest of the game is intent on immersing you into this believable world.

[Nepsotic]

I like the way the Brewery looks, but it needs to be changed up every now and again. It feels like Zulag 3 of RuptureFarms but going on forever. It also doesn't have the same sense of isolation RF2 did.
Instead of any kind of temple or vault, they should just have the entire area be outside. Imagine Paramonia but orange, and slightly longer. That'd be way cooler.

[STM]

I think the whole Necrum/Vault area was completely useless. It didn't add anything to the story and the whole Scrab/Paramite possession mechanic was just a waste, it didn't have any purpose other than "hey, look what you can do now!"

Depends how you look at it, from a gameplay perspective sure, it's probably just Lorne giving us a little fun. From a story perspective it's pretty big: Abe is advancing on his quest and becoming more powerful, he's able now to enter the minds of other animals other than sligs. You could really say that any individual area of any level in any of the games has no purpose/adds nothing to the story. Mudomo and Mudanchee do rehash Paramonia and Scrabania but it's also showing that Abe is awakening more native holy grounds.

[Nepsotic]

Then how come he can just do it? It didn't at all seem like Abe becoming more developed, it just seemed like throwing in another mechanic for the fuck of it. If it were built up a little more and maybe had a couple of cutscenes in the same way that Shrykull did then that would make a lot more sense.

[Holy Sock]

Well how come Abe was able to possess at the beginning of Oddysee? That was clearly there for gameplay purposes and there's no story justification for it. Perhaps it would have been better if it did but it works fine not being explicit. Perhaps the power of the Shrykull allows him to do this? Do you encounter Paramites or Scrabs after gaining it? Or he's just steadily getting better at possession like one does with any skill.

[Nepsotic]

The whole point is that Abe is the only slave who has that power. Being able to possess Sligs from the start is suitable. Sure it would work better with some kind of explanation or him discovering his powers, but the mechanic was one of the main focuses of the game so it's easier to look past it. In AE, there is absolutely NO reason to be able to posses Scrabs and Paramites.

[Moot]

I agree the pacing in Exoddus wasn't as elegant as Oddysee. But I entirely disagree with the supposed redundancy of the story.

Abe effectively stumbles his way through Exoddus, because he's not supposed to be the Hero we want to be. He's a schmuck! He gets told to save their bones, so he goes to Necrum, shit goes wrong, he blows up the boiler and gets shot into the forest. He's forced down a path until he finds the three Weirdos, in which he saves his pals and continues on his journey.

I won't argue that Exoddus has the same heart as Oddysee, because it doesn't. But the reason I'd argue it's simply better then Oddysee, is that it isn't broken mechanically.

There isn't as many restart-parts: I've played Oddysee and have finished one of the two temples and have started the second, and I've already had to deal with a ton of restarts of sections, because I couldn't continue.

The team-speak isn't broken: Oddysee's team-speak sounds terrible, when I was little, I literally couldn't understand what Abe was saying, and Exoddus rectifies this. And obviously the lack of an "all-yall" button, in Oddysee I'm supposed to want to save all of the Mudokons, but honestly cannot be fucked because it's so brutal to deal with. That's some real mechanical-dissidence.

But I'm still playing through Oddysee, so I'll share more of my thoughts once I've finished it for the first time. Overall, I enjoy Exoduss much, much more.

Edit: Also, I'm colorblind so please confirm - Abe is blue, isn't he? And the other shamans are blue, right? Could Abe just be descended from a shaman family, and thus is able to posses? I have no idea if any of them are the same color or what, but it'd be cool if that detail was actually a thing!

[Holy Sock]

Well I'm the opposite. It's easier to look past that in AE because it's easier to explain away. Possession isn't a power up. He's just better at it or more one with nature and the creatures they worshiped or something. You really don't need a big cutscene showing this I think.