the Defence of Zion. I could have done better.

Fez · #1 11-15-2003, 07:48 PM

another Matrix thread, but its about what i think of the defence of Zion. If Neo hadnt *Bleep* with the machines (damn that sounds bad) then Zion would have been f*cked.

First of all, when the machines attacked, they used bullets. Sure they were in the .50 BMG range, but that was a very bad blunder. The APU's shouldnt have been so close together. It would only take one of those bombs to screw a whole squad. They should have stayed behind cover with ammo in with them and be scattered about better. So they can attack from 360. The whole idea of people running out to reload them was crap. Also, you saw how affective the missles were against the drills, then why dont you put that sort of thing on the APU's? make them heat seeking and high-explosive, and you'll be taking out sentinals in about 5-10 per missile.

They should have had more heavy artillery. A few hundred cumbersom, slow APU's wouldnt work. A coupleof tanks with big ass cannons could have slowed the sentinals comeing from the hole.

why did those girls wait untill they got to the drill to reload? its stupid!

also i was thinking they should have had some airburst EMP missiles. Airburst meaning that they would blow up when programmed to. Shoot one of those into a hole and ya got thousands of f*ucked up sentinals.

how come they have energy weapons for simple grunts and not bigger ones for ships and APU's?

so overall i'm not saying i could have defended it better, but i would sure as hell f*cked them up abit.

so what are your ideas on the topic. BTW this could sort of be that matrix disscussion thread that Mac wanted.

***Wil*** · #2 11-15-2003, 08:09 PM

I don't know much about defence and weapons and such, but I'm pretty sure there was a panoramic shot where you saw the APUs spreading around the hall they were in.

But also, there is one fundamental thing they missed: fitting EMPs all round the perimeter of Zion. It boggles the mind to think that they didn't do that as 'standard practice'. What are they, utter imbeciles?

Joshy · #3 11-15-2003, 09:13 PM

I think that some people should ride on the apu with gun to guard the backs of the apu.

Also how the hell did they sentinels get through??? its like only a small dam hole and everyone was shooting at it.

Why dont they shoot the dam bazooker at the hole, it would rip tons of them apart.

I agree with ferill about reloading the bazooker part, they should've loaded before they shot the thing.

But i think the best plan would've been everyone committing mass suicide so when the machine comes there is nobody for them to kill.

Also, they should've all stayed in the matrix, so they wont have to suffer the horrible death by the sentinels. Also they would be able to eat steak and shit, since they dont have any good food in zion as it seems....

also in the matrix they can see the sun and stuff....

***Alcar*** · #4 11-15-2003, 11:09 PM

:

Originally posted by Joshy
Also, they should've all stayed in the matrix, so they wont have to suffer the horrible death by the sentinels. Also they would be able to eat steak and shit, since they dont have any good food in zion as it seems....

I'm not completely sure what I'd rather for myself. To live ignorantly in the Matrix, in a life I love. Or live outside the Matrix.

It is a hard decision.

Alcar...

Majic · #5 11-15-2003, 11:30 PM

In the matrix, they would've been infected by Smith, moron

Do you not remember it was dark, rainy and conquered?

EMPs also shut down everything with a huge radius if you remember. Rigging them around the edges would be suicide. Discharging one would leave a gaping weakness to enter through. EMPs being discharged right next to the APUs would then disable them all, allowing the other 200,000 thousand sentinals to kill them all.

Also, the APU's had limited space to work with. If you don't remember, the dock was the best place they had to fight the things off. Put up your fight there where it would be the most effective. And if you saw the tracers, they DID have 360 degree cover. Simply put though, the falling destroyed ones merely served as cover for the rest of the ones pouring out.

You don't want missles going off inside of a tunnel by accident, especially with you right next to it. Thus, don't reload in a place like that. There are limited amounts of missles, too. And you DID see how effective a missle was agaisnt the machines. The miss hit a sentinal, and it blew it up. No huge thing to blow up everything in a 50 foot radius. The drills had a weak spot or whatever on top, anyways. Arming APUs with the missles would also be dangerous, due to easy friendly fire and blowing yourself up if you shot a sentinal too close. If you noticed, the bullets didn't cause explosions.

Big ass cannons could only fire so fast. And just like with the bullets, the falling destroyed sentinals would still serve as cover from other explosions.

I'm not sure about the energy guns, as we have no clue how they're made. Not everything can simply be made bigger.

Lastly, the fact still remains that there were 250,000 FREAKING THINGS! That equals constant stream. None of thoses ideas could have continuously done the same. Their setup was just as good as any other.

mitsur · #6 11-16-2003, 01:14 AM

:

Originally posted by Majic
In the matrix, they would've been infected by Smith, moron Do you not remember it was dark, rainy and conquered?

EMPs also shut down everything with a huge radius if you remember. Rigging them around the edges would be suicide. Discharging one would leave a gaping weakness to enter through. EMPs being discharged right next to the APUs would then disable them all, allowing the other 200,000 thousand sentinals to kill them all.

Also, the APU's had limited space to work with. If you don't remember, the dock was the best place they had to fight the things off. Put up your fight there where it would be the most effective. And if you saw the tracers, they DID have 360 degree cover. Simply put though, the falling destroyed ones merely served as cover for the rest of the ones pouring out.

You don't want missles going off inside of a tunnel by accident, especially with you right next to it. Thus, don't reload in a place like that. There are limited amounts of missles, too. And you DID see how effective a missle was agaisnt the machines. The miss hit a sentinal, and it blew it up. No huge thing to blow up everything in a 50 foot radius. The drills had a weak spot or whatever on top, anyways. Arming APUs with the missles would also be dangerous, due to easy friendly fire and blowing yourself up if you shot a sentinal too close. If you noticed, the bullets didn't cause explosions.

Big ass cannons could only fire so fast. And just like with the bullets, the falling destroyed sentinals would still serve as cover from other explosions.

I'm not sure about the energy guns, as we have no clue how they're made. Not everything can simply be made bigger.

Lastly, the fact still remains that there were 250,000 FREAKING THINGS! That equals constant stream. None of thoses ideas could have continuously done the same. Their setup was just as good as any other.

I agree with Majic. The only thing they should have done different though, was attach an EMP to a pure metal ball or something else thats really hard and shoot it straight up the hole with a cannon and detonate it when it went to the top of hole. Can you say huge clean up after that?

Joshy · #7 11-16-2003, 01:46 AM

How about shooting quick solidfying concrete into the opening to stop the sentinels from breaking thru??

Facsimile · #8 11-16-2003, 03:01 AM

How about ferill they didn't have the resources for your royal commands. How about it was in the heat of the moment,you are thinking about living, not reloading rocket launchers. How about it's a movie and you're a psycho with a weapon addiction. How about that, huh?

Hobo · #9 11-16-2003, 08:13 AM

:

Originally posted by Facsimile
How about ferill they didn't have the resources for your royal commands. How about it was in the heat of the moment,you are thinking about living, not reloading rocket launchers. How about it's a movie and you're a psycho with a weapon addiction. How about that, huh?

Don't say that, you'll just make him mad, and he'll eat our Rugby balls.

***Wil*** · #10 11-16-2003, 03:17 PM

If EMPs cause long-range damage to all electrics, move them further away from Zion so that they don't destroy the command centre, holographics et al. It's perfectly simple. Of course they did send the hovercraft with EMPs to shut down the machines, but Smith/Bain screwed that up. But still, in a city that's standing against an army of beasties which can most easily be shut down with EMPs, then surely it makes sense to fit EMPs so they get the enemy before they reach the city. It's simple, surely.

Okay, now I do have a question - if an explosive device takes out part or all of the human-pod places (not the fields), what happens to the "humans" in the Matrix world? They can't just appear to die, because without feed from their brains, their "program" can't exist in the Matrix. Do they, like the glorious Lord Lucan or the lovely ladies of Hanging Rock, just disappear?

nads · #11 11-17-2003, 10:56 PM

damn technology...

Mac the Janitor · #12 11-18-2003, 01:22 AM

:

Originally posted by Facsimile
How about ferill they didn't have the resources for your royal commands. How about it was in the heat of the moment,you are thinking about living, not reloading rocket launchers. How about it's a movie and you're a psycho with a weapon addiction. How about that, huh?

Lol...hilarious, yet so true. I love you, Fac.

Al the Vykker · #13 11-18-2003, 02:26 AM

Going with the perimeter defenses. I think they should have implemented EMPs in certain areas that would not harm zion yet would be close enough to wipe out the machines above the city.

I also like the idea that someone mentioned about a kind of emp filled missile or projectile that could have been shot up through the breach in the dock walls.

Stanley · #14 11-18-2003, 03:02 AM

I agree with Al more emp's would have gave Zion a better chance... Even know in the end Neo stratigized perfectley.

But then again with out us haveing parts of the movie to coment on, it wouldent be much of a movie. Would it.?

Yet no matter what Matrix kicks @ss.. plez join me at ZION forums linked to www.enterthematrix.com hope to see you there.

mitsur · #15 11-18-2003, 01:33 PM

:

Originally posted by Al the Vykker

I also like the idea that someone mentioned about a kind of emp filled missile or projectile that could have been shot up through the breach in the dock walls.

I said that about the projectile.

Whats weird is if Neo is the one but he can only do stuff in the Matrix, how does he stop the machines OUTSIDE the Matrix? I mean come on, the phophey(god I hate this word)said he can change things in the MATRIX not the real world.

Stanley · #16 11-18-2003, 04:41 PM

ITS a kick ass movie just leave it...

Mac the Janitor · #17 11-18-2003, 08:37 PM

:

Originally posted by mitsur

Whats weird is if Neo is the one but he can only do stuff in the Matrix, how does he stop the machines OUTSIDE the Matrix? I mean come on, the phophey(god I hate this word)said he can change things in the MATRIX not the real world.

He could do that because in the 3rd one we found out he isn't just a glitch in the matrix who can defy the rules...he actually has real powers. He really is like a saviour of the human race.

There are many, many, many religious references and themes in the three movies; so many, in fact, that I've concluded that Neo is basically Kung-Fu Jesus.

Majic · #18 11-18-2003, 10:26 PM

Macs point is true.

Yet still, I say lining the perimeter with EMPs would be in vain. One discharge couldn't make a dent in the number of sentinals.

Fez · #19 11-19-2003, 05:10 PM

:

Originally posted by Majic
You don't want missles going off inside of a tunnel by accident,

i meant to load them but not to arm them. When they were put in the black girl flipped a switch on the back to arm the missle.

there was plenty of places for cover to be made, so why didnt they make some? APU's hide behind it, and have ammo right there.

Going full auto on those guns was a bad idea too. For about 4 minutes (i aint kidding) they fired. There would be problems of overheating, warping the barrel to the point of uselessness and such crap accuracy.

i dont think FF would have been a problem either.

now...you could have everyone retrete into Zion, lock all doors, and use weapons with out electricity and constantly use EMP blasts, untill they are all dead.

***Alcar*** · #20 11-20-2003, 02:39 AM

Mac is right, I read something earlier that detailed all the parts in the first Matrix that referenced Neo to Jesus. Here are the important parts.

:

Originally posted by this guy
Morpheus is the John the Baptist figure, awaiting the Second Coming. Trinity comes the closest to playing the God role—notably when she brings Neo back to life at the end of the movie (a clear reference to the Resurrection). Cypher is the Judas Iscariot of the story—the traitor who betrays Neo and his disciples. Cypher is so called because of what he does (decode the Matrix) and what he is—a clever encrypter of his own character and motives (no one can decode him till it is too late). Neo doubts his own status as "The One", as Jesus must have, but eventually he comes to realize his destiny—as would-be conqueror of the evil Matrix.

Early on in the movie a guy refers to Neo as his own "personal Jesus Christ". Cypher says, "You scared the bejesus out of me" when Neo surprises him. Mouse says, "Jesus Christ, he’s fast" while Neo is being trained. Trinity says, "Jesus Christ, they’re killing him" while Neo is getting pummeled by the Agents. And his civilian name, "Anderson", suggests the antecedent cognomen "Christian".

Alcar...

racla · #21 11-20-2003, 04:12 AM

Well for one thing about the defense...IS THAT ZION DOESNT HAVE ALL THE RESOURCES AND MAN POWER TO DO SUCH THINGS!! Heres a list for ferill :

1. The APU's werent all bunched together like sardines...it was only that Captain and his two officers that were ever side by side while all the other APU's were strategically placed and you can see that just by looking where the gun fire was coming from on the docks

2.Well...yes, the people coming out to reload them was a crappy idea but i dont see you thinking of a better idea...and by the way it made it seem more real then just having the APU's with unlimited supply of ammo. Im guessing only the grunts have the electrical weapons as APU's were mechanical and werent powered by electricity

3. Those missles were too small to be taking out 5-10 Sentinals per hit and it was a good idea too place them with Grunts as the bulk of Sentinals would most likely go for APU's with guns blazing then a small 2 person team.

4.It seemed like the launchers would be a lot more bulky if it would've been pre-loaded so that the bulk of the load would be shared between two people and only loaded when needed.

5.Airburst Emp-missles would've been a good idea but it really was better invested with the ships but they probably didnt put into the fact later..that the whole fleet was wiped out but two ships.

6.That thing about the tanks once again relates to my opening statement 'IS THAT ZION DOESNT HAVE ALL THE RESOURCES AND MAN POWER TO DO SUCH THINGS!!' after building all the ships, all the APU's look like they've been made from the left over metal.

Joshy · #22 11-20-2003, 04:14 AM

Agent smith = Satan??

But Jesus didnt show off like Neo did. + Neo used his power to kill, did you see how many sentinels he killed??? Jesus only used his power to heal. i dont see much healing but neo... except the selfish act of saving his girl friend.

Facsimile · #23 11-20-2003, 05:47 AM

:

Originally posted by Joshy
did you see how many sentinels he killed???

Joshy, a machine cannot be killed.
They were murdered!

Alcar, the stuff about everyone saying Jesus Christ was looked into far too much. That's a pretty common saying nowadays.

***Alcar*** · #24 11-20-2003, 06:20 AM

:

Originally posted by Facsimile
Alcar, the stuff about everyone saying Jesus Christ was looked into far too much. That's a pretty common saying nowadays.

I understand, but that aside the other similarities can't be pushed aside. I think the Wacholwski (or however you spell it

) brothers intentionally created the Matrix that way to express the parallels between our worlds.

Alcar...

Mac the Janitor · #25 11-20-2003, 11:09 AM

SPOILERS AHEAD -

If you have not seen Matrix Revolutions yet, don't read this post.

:

Originally posted by Facsimile
Alcar, the stuff about everyone saying Jesus Christ was looked into far too much. That's a pretty common saying nowadays.

Not entirely. I also think it was done intentionally.

Think about it... in the first movie, he dies, but is then reborn with special powers. He is "The One", or the saviour for the human race from enslavement of the...robots. He then sacrifices himself for the human race. Heck, he even dies in the cross position (like Jesus at the cross) at the end.

Hobo · #26 11-20-2003, 01:38 PM

:

Originally posted by Joshy
Did you see how many sentinels he killed??? Jesus

Not to mention loads of innocent old retired security guards he massacred in the lobby.

Fez · #27 11-20-2003, 03:31 PM

:

Originally posted by racla
Well for one thing about the defense...IS THAT ZION DOESNT HAVE ALL THE RESOURCES AND MAN POWER TO DO SUCH THINGS!! Heres a list for ferill :

1. The APU's werent all bunched together like sardines...it was only that Captain and his two officers that were ever side by side while all the other APU's were strategically placed and you can see that just by looking where the gun fire was coming from on the docks

2.Well...yes, the people coming out to reload them was a crappy idea but i dont see you thinking of a better idea...and by the way it made it seem more real then just having the APU's with unlimited supply of ammo. Im guessing only the grunts have the electrical weapons as APU's were mechanical and werent powered by electricity

3. Those missles were too small to be taking out 5-10 Sentinals per hit and it was a good idea too place them with Grunts as the bulk of Sentinals would most likely go for APU's with guns blazing then a small 2 person team.

4.It seemed like the launchers would be a lot more bulky if it would've been pre-loaded so that the bulk of the load would be shared between two people and only loaded when needed.

5.Airburst Emp-missles would've been a good idea but it really was better invested with the ships but they probably didnt put into the fact later..that the whole fleet was wiped out but two ships.

6.That thing about the tanks once again relates to my opening statement 'IS THAT ZION DOESNT HAVE ALL THE RESOURCES AND MAN POWER TO DO SUCH THINGS!!' after building all the ships, all the APU's look like they've been made from the left over metal.

1. much more then just the commander were grouped together, and even if they were spread about, they had no direct cover and were using bullets for a ranged attack.

2. if they had cover then the reload guys could hid there with marines, reload the APU's and cover the APU's if a sentinal gets on them.

3. i meant having a small amout of HE (high-explosive) missiles on the APU's that were fired off at the start of the battle, and then the launchers could be discarded and picked up by other marines.

4. the launcher would not be much heavier with missiles loaded, but what i mean is that when they got to their destination they reloaded, leaving them open for about 10-20 seconds.

5. we agree.

6. i see what you mean there, heavy artillery is a bit much, but they should have covered up the APU's abit more so they had less important parts sticking out.

***Alcar*** · #28 11-21-2003, 12:57 AM

:

Originally posted by Mac the Janitor
Heck, he even dies in the cross position (like Jesus at the cross) at the end.

Lol! How funny, I was talking to someone today about that very thing. Curse you for bringing it up before me! Curse you!

Alcar...

oddguy · #29 11-21-2003, 01:36 AM

:

Originally posted by Mac the Janitor
Think about it... in the first movie, he dies, but is then reborn with special powers. He is "The One", or the saviour for the human race from enslavement of the...robots. He then sacrifices himself for the human race. Heck, he even dies in the cross position (like Jesus at the cross) at the end.

I noticed that connection in the first movie. The dieing, then comming back to life. I thought I was maybe looking to far into it and ignored it, because the movie was sooo cool, but in revolutions it was clear that that's what they were wanting us to think all along. I wathced the first movie again and noticed that when Neo hands that disk thingy to one of his friends, the friend says, "Wow! Man, you are my savior! My personal Jesus Christ." Appears that they were forshadowing. Also, ZION is a righteous city foretold in the Bible where Christ will teach in the second coming. I still like the Matrix, but this kinda bugs me.

-oddguy

Joshy · #30 11-21-2003, 01:39 AM

I felt Zion more like the city of Babaylon, all those wild orgy dances.... Machines everywhere.... people killing machines..... Zion should've gotten destroyed... Now the human race will rise again and defile the earth...

Kill All Humans!!