Islam

[EVP_Glukkon]

MOD EDIT: The following 81 posts were split off from the US Presidential Election thread immediately after this post.


The Arab-States don't hold a lot of tolerance for Western culture and our views/customs. 'Us against them' mentality is justifiable.

US Immigration has become lax, and it has been the exact same situation in Europe. A US example according to the FBI as of 2015, was that the US was allowing approx 800 Muslims a month from Somalia entry in to the US. That's just one example.

You can all be vocal enough with denials about immigration issues, however there are enough statements from FBI and CIA officials to claim otherwise.

Most people choose to be ignorant about these issues because let's face it, it doesn't interest/concern them much overall. So I 'get it' if you choose not to agree. But if you have any data or counter arguments then by all means.

Nate, I see you have a bias towards Christians. If you want to use the data that
1: Large majorities of White males had a christian upbrining
2: White males have access to firearms
And reach the conclusion that you have, then I find it highly objectional for obvious reasons.

[Nepsotic]

Yes, their culture is utter shit and is based on a 2000 year old book of fairytales written by some illiterate desert dwellers, but if that's grounds for banning them from your country, then you're an idiot.

[Mac Sirloin]

EVP, was it a bunch of muslims who took over a wildlife reserve in Oregon?

No, it was a bunch of shit-kicking good 'ol boys who committed a felony by defying the federal government, trespassing on Native American land and choosing to go out in a blaze of glory instead of giving up and going home when the authorities gave them a big, fat window to stop committing what was, based on their professed ideals, treason.

Please, point me towards a report on domestic terrorism concerning radical Islam that can't be directly compared with alarming urgency to the pockets of Christian militias that are growing in the Christian population of the USA, which comprises 70% of the overall population.

You talk like the native populations of Muslims are at great risk of radicalization when they've been rooted in American culture at least as long as they were bringing slaves over from Africa.

The Arab-States don't hold a lot of tolerance for Western culture and our views/customs. 'Us against them' mentality is justifiable.

Only if you're a willfully ignorant, righteously indignant shit-paste who doesn't know jack about Islam and how it's divvied up into a collection of distinct subcultures.

Like any religion, Islam is as bad as what you bring to it. You bring the 'us vs. them' mentality to either your Faith or your Ideology, ergo you are representative of something just as toxic as any other radical ideology, such as the one you assert to oppose. You are the problem, not the refugees. You know, the same kind of refugees that have been entering your country for ~200 years.



Man, Trump really lit a flame under the world's ass by making self-righteous ignoramuses like EVP believe they have something worthwhile to say about the state of the world.

[Crashpunk]

Isn't Crashpunk muslim?

What?

no I'm not.

[FrustratedAssassin]

What?

no I'm not.

But I thought the UK was a Muslim sharia no-go zone

[Vlam]

Aren't Australians less liberal than others?

[Havoc]

Yes, their culture is utter shit and is based on a 2000 year old book of fairytales written by some illiterate desert dwellers, but if that's grounds for banning them from your country, then you're an idiot.

Wait, are we talking about the Muslims Trump wants to deport, or about the American values he wants to protect?

[EVP_Glukkon]

EVP, was it a bunch of muslims who took over a wildlife reserve in Oregon?

No, it was a bunch of shit-kicking good 'ol boys who committed a felony by defying the federal government, trespassing on Native American land and choosing to go out in a blaze of glory instead of giving up and going home when the authorities gave them a big, fat window to stop committing what was, based on their professed ideals, treason.

So insert X and Y incidents of domestic violence in the US to counter my point that FBI and CIA have made public statements that there is a credible threat with current Muslim immigration in to the US?

Please, point me towards a report on domestic terrorism concerning radical Islam that can't be directly compared with alarming urgency to the pockets of Christian militias that are growing in the Christian population of the USA, which comprises 70% of the overall population.

Point me to a report that states there are growing Christian militas.

IIRC there has been intelligence that National/home based militia groups are on the rise since 2010-2013, but there is no such evidence to suggest there is a common affiliation with some kind of Christian motiviation/cause to it.

You talk like the native populations of Muslims are at great risk of radicalization when they've been rooted in American culture at least as long as they were bringing slaves over from Africa.

Negative.

To be clear there are individuals within the poulation that may be subject to radiclization, and there are documented cases of this both within the US and Europe, (Australia as well). We know that ISIS have drawn members from 51 countries, and have been sending members in to countries acting as refugees.

Only if you're a willfully ignorant, righteously indignant shit-paste who doesn't know jack about Islam and how it's divvied up into a collection of distinct subcultures.

They are not called subcultures, but are a series of various denominations of Islam. I am familair with them and I am aware that none of them are comparable or tolerant to Western culture/social norms.

Like any religion, Islam is as bad as what you bring to it. You bring the 'us vs. them' mentality to either your Faith or your Ideology, ergo you are representative of something just as toxic as any other radical ideology, such as the one you assert to oppose. You are the problem, not the refugees. You know, the same kind of refugees that have been entering your country for ~200 years.

They are not all the same 'kind' of refugees anymore, that's the issue here and the reason why intelligence agencies ( FBI, CIA, MI6, ASIO.) have raised their concerns about it.

I know you are excited to argue that not all Muslims are the enemy, yet I never said they were. The only kind of toxicity that I notice is from your attitude in your responses to me.

Man, Trump really lit a flame under the world's ass by making self-righteous ignoramuses like EVP believe they have something worthwhile to say about the state of the world.

I'm just a guy that puts stock in to what US and other intelligence services claim is going on. If you don't believe them, then by all means voice your displeasure to them, it doesn't have anything to do with me.

Being hostile towards me, not actually countering anything I put forth and discrediting me just for my opinion is a display of self-righteous, bigotry on your part. I'm not surpised by it, some people get their kicks stirin' the pot around here but it just bores me. Still I at least try to respond to your points, hopefully you manage to return the favour.

[STM]

Hahahaha, "prove to me there's correlation between lunatic white militias and Christianity"
...
ISLAM IS FUCKING CRAZY THEYRE ALL MAD BECAUSE THEY MUSLAMIC.

[Varrok]

@EVP_Glukkon you use orange text whenever you speak in your Glukkon character, right?

[EVP_Glukkon]

Yes, their culture is utter shit and is based on a 2000 year old book of fairytales written by some illiterate desert dwellers, but if that's grounds for banning them from your country, then you're an idiot.

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Illiterate people writing books huh.

[Manco]

I know you are excited to argue that not all Muslims are the enemy, yet I never said they were.

They are not called subcultures, but are a series of various denominations of Islam. I am familair with them and I am aware that none of them are comparable or tolerant to Western culture/social norms.

You can’t say that all denominations of Islam are hostile and then get offended when people accuse you of calling all Muslims the enemy.

[Varrok]

Islam is a very hostile religion. That doesn't mean all the people must be hostile.

Christianity is pretty hostile too, especially the Old testament.

[Manco]

No, certain interpretations of those religions are hostile, which is a completely different statement to make. One is a blanket condemnation of all followers of that religion, the other isn’t.

[Vlam]

Well, Erdogan would agree with EVP_Glukkon.

[Varrok]

No, certain interpretations of those religions are hostile, which is a completely different statement to make. One is a blanket condemnation of all followers of that religion, the other isn’t.

Well, I'm waiting for you to interpret "People who do gay sex should be put to death" (Leviticus 20:13) in a non-hostile way.

[Nepsotic]

No, certain interpretations of those religions are hostile, which is a completely different statement to make. One is a blanket condemnation of all followers of that religion, the other isn’t.

No, Islam is a hostile religion. Like Varrok said, how many interpretations can you make out of verses like that.

Christianity is, too. The difference is, most Christians are really bad at being Christians. If they followed their book to a tee in the same way that Muslims do they'd be just as bad.
For example, God's love is eternal and unconditional -

UNLESS YOU
Are gay (Lev 18:22)
Commit adultery (EX 20:14)
Have long hair (1 Cor 11:14)
Are circumcised (Gal 5:2 )
Are not circumcised (Gen 17:10 )
Are a murderer ( Ex 20:13 )
Are not a murderer (Ex 32:27 )
Are an alcoholic ( Prov 20:1)
Are a woman (Gen 3:16 )
Have sexual intercourse ( 1 Cor 7:1-40)
Have damaged male organs ( Dea 23:1 )
Use birth control ( Gen 38:1-10 )
Are pregnant or give birth ( Lev 12:1-8)
Cross dress ( Deu 22:5)
Have premarital sex (Deu 22:13-21 )
Urinate in public ( 1 Sam 25:22 )
Speak his name in vain ( Lev 25:16 )

If you do any of those things (among many others), you will burn for eternity in Hell. Because he loves you.

[Manco]

It’s like neither of you know what “interpretation” means.

[Xorlidyr]

My boyfriend is muslim.
I feel biased.

[Vlam]

My boyfriend is muslim.
I feel biased.

Wait, Crashpunk is your boyfriend?

[Nepsotic]

It’s like neither of you know what “interpretation” means.

I think you don't know what interpretation means.

"You are sentenced to execution"
"So when can I leave"
"I just said you were sentenced to death"
"Yeah but I interpret that as meaning I have been released"

[STM]

You do all know that the Quran is quantifiably a less violent book than the Bible, yes?

Also you know that all religion, all of it is based on interpretation; you can't take the entirety of a religion based on a few choice excerpts, no one reads a holy text like that, you have to read it as a whole.

[Varrok]

It’s like neither of you know what “interpretation” means.

Still waiting.

[Nepsotic]

you can't take the entirety of a religion based on a few choice excerpts, no one reads a holy text like that, you have to read it as a whole.

Are you serious? Every Christian nowadays cherry picks which rules they want to follow and which ones they don't. The biggest assholes in both Christianity and Islam are the ones who follow their holy book the closest.
Thing is, there's more Muslims who do that than Christians, because they live in a more backward-ass culture.

[Manco]

I think you don't know what interpretation means.

You mean like how practically every major religion has multiple denominations and movements within it who each have varying different interpretations of the religions they follow, based around the varying translations of their holy texts, interpretations of doctrines, picking and choosing of tenets to follow and to ignore, and an examination of the historical context in which those tenets were originally written?

Since you want to be a smartass about it – yes, there are contradictory statements throughout the Bible and other religious texts. The interpretation I’m talking about comes from people reading those and deciding which rules are appropriate to follow, and which can be ignored thanks to impracticality, culturally irrelevant or borne of an outdated historical context. Hence why you’ll find most Christians focus on the New Testament’s teachings, and why most Muslims aren’t sword-wielding maniacs.

Now, I get it. You’re not a religious person, you think religious people are probably pretty silly for believing in stuff you don’t. But I don’t believe you honestly think that religious followers are bound to follow every single rule in their religious texts. I think you’re deliberately bringing this up in an attempt to whitewash all religion as stupid and also to paint the picture that all Muslims in particular are bad people. You know that’s not how religion works (this exact same conversation has cropped up before on these forums), so don’t try to represent it like that.

e:

Still waiting.

I’m sure you can read the above and work out how the dictionary definition applies to it.

[Varrok]

If they want to be good followers, yes, they're bound to read and listen to their holy books.

[Nepsotic]

Of course, Manco, because any time I criticise Islam for it's bullshit it clearly means I hate Muslims and think they are bad people.

But I don’t believe you honestly think that religious followers are bound to follow every single rule in their religious texts.

When the hell did I even say that? Do you not realise that you are arguing the exact same point that I am? Religious people decide which rules they follow and which ones they don't, which negates all the rules altogether, but that's besides the point.
You will find that in the middle east, people follow the Quran MUCH more closely than people in western countries follow the Bible.
Of course that is down to culture, but it doesn't excuse the fact that both books are reprehensible in their ideas, which is what the fuck we were discussing in the first place.

Don't give me any of this fucking "you just hate Muslims!" bullshit because it doesn't work on me.

[STM]

You do realise that the middle east, which I'm assuming you're talking about when you say "Muslim culture", has far less resources than typical Western nations due to their geographical situation. Despite this, "Muslim culture" was the epicentre of cultural, technological and religious innovation for the best part of 1200 years. Don't confused the religious elite of Islam with the vast majority of Muslims, who are probably far more normal and functioning than you.

[Xorlidyr]

You do realise that the middle east, which I'm assuming you're talking about when you say "Muslim culture", has far less resources than typical Western nations due to their geographical situation. Despite this, "Muslim culture" was the epicentre of cultural, technological and religious innovation for the best part of 1200 years. Don't confused the religious elite of Islam with the vast majority of Muslims, who are probably far more normal and functioning than you.

Yes, like my boyfriend.

[Varrok]

STM's right. Here's it all documented