What is Existence?

STM · #1 10-04-2011, 12:39 PM

After a massive slump in activity, I think we need something hot to revamp the forum back into life. So how about a debate?

What is Existence? How do we know what exists and what doesn't? Do things like 2+2=4, things that are fundamentally true, make sense if no one is around with the mental capacity to acknowledge them?

I stand by the following two ideologies:

I think therefore I am.
I see it therefore it exists.

Life cannot be an illusion on a scale so grand and magnificent unless it is created by an omniscient being with an intelligence far more complex than we can perceive.

MeechMunchie · #2 10-04-2011, 12:45 PM

People see things that don't exist all the time.

Either that, or all these spiders on my eyes are real and I should see a doctor.

Actually, I should probably go see a doctor anyway.

STM · #3 10-04-2011, 12:54 PM

But if you see them, do they then exist? Why don't they exist if you see them?

shaman · #4 10-04-2011, 01:02 PM

Well if you see something. Then the image is real. This is as far as i have the energy to go on this subject.

MeechMunchie · #5 10-04-2011, 01:05 PM

:

But if you see them, do they then exist? Why don't they exist if you see them?

Firstly, most people in the world would look at my face and be able to confirm that there were no spiders. Secondly, sight is but one of methods of detection, so a person could pick at my face and confirm that they could feel no spiders either. And just to decrease the chance of human error, we could fire a few electron streams at my face and confirm that there were indeed no invisible-intangible-but-physically-present spiders.

However, I'll assume that by 'see' you really mean 'percieve'. The entire human race is under mutual illusion in a way, for instance we detect infra-red radiation as a sensation of warmth while just a stone's throw up the electromagnetic spetrum we interpret the radiation as colour and image. They are essentially the same thing at different wavelengths, so one of these methods of detection (take your pick) is provably limited.

These limitations of our senses mean that there are things that certainly exist but we cannot percieve, while the simple capacity of humans to be idiots accounts for the inverse.

Crashpunk · #6 10-04-2011, 01:11 PM

If this isn't real. This a damn good simulator.

STM · #7 10-04-2011, 01:15 PM

^ insightful as always Chris.

I loathe going here so early because it'll fuck up the conversation and change the path of it, but MM, we have no way of detecting Go...actually, aliens, we have no way of detecting aliens, do they therefore then not exist?

Wings of Fire · #8 10-04-2011, 01:28 PM

I have no good reason to doubt that other things like me do not exist.

'We might be all a dream in some spacebug's mind' is not a good reason and it does not constitute reasonable doubt in existence.

Daxter King · #9 10-04-2011, 01:29 PM

:

^ insightful as always Chris.

I loathe going here so early because it'll fuck up the conversation and change the path of it, but MM, we have no way of detecting Go...actually, aliens, we have no way of detecting aliens, do they therefore then not exist?

:

These limitations of our senses mean that there are things that certainly exist but we cannot percieve,

Reality is what you make of it.

MeechMunchie · #10 10-04-2011, 01:32 PM

:

MM, we have no way of detecting Go...actually, aliens, we have no way of detecting aliens, do they therefore then not exist?

We have no way of detecting aliens, so we cannot prove they exist.

We have no way of detecting an absence of aliens, so we cannot prove they do not exist either.

Dixanadu · #11 10-04-2011, 01:45 PM

There are more galaxies in the universe than there are grains of sand in Earth's beaches.

If we're the only ones, we have a lot more territory to fight over centuries from now.

Ridg3 · #12 10-04-2011, 02:23 PM

Existence? I thought we were going to debate what stupid reason we were planted on this world for other than fucking, eating and shitting.

But, seeing that this isn't the case I'll throw my two cents in about the subject; I'm currently sitting in my room, on a chair, typing this out on my keyboard. The message will appear and therefore the message exists.

I believe that something has to have some sort of impact in the world/universe for it to exist. I'm not a big philosopher and I'm not great at conveying the message I have in my head, but I hope you understand what I mean. To put it another way;

Let's assume that a closet has one box of toys and no-one has entered the closet since the box has been placed. There is no holes for rodents, spiders and any other vermin. The closet is completely airtight and there is no chance of earthquakes or any other natural disaster. The boogie monster is capable of teleportation.

A kid can come up and say that there's a boogie monster hiding in their closet. Fair enough, you go and check to put the little bastard's mind at rest. After checking the closet, you notice the box of toys has not been moved from it's original location. You can then tell the kid that there is no such thing as the boogie monster seeing as there's no evidence to claim that anything, other than the box, has been in the closet.

If, however, you go in and you see the box knocked over with toys strewn all over the floor then it would be safe to assume that something big and bulky has been in the closet to knock over the toys.

If you see where I'm coming from, you deserve all the respect in the world.

Havoc · #13 10-04-2011, 02:41 PM

You know how big an atom is right? Smallest thing in the universe? If you were to make a timeline from the moment the big bang happend up until the point where the universe seases to exist, our entire lifespan (the millions of years we have been around and the millions of years we will be around until the sun explodes) would not even be visible on that timeline. Our entire period of existance would be smaller than an atom in the grand sceme of things.

Why do we exist? Pure coincidence. A fluke. Because somewhere along the way a completely random series of events formed earth at a position in space exactly far enough from the sun not to scorch the surface and close enough for it not to freeze water. Water = life (very roughly speaking). And here we are.

And with an explaination like that I understand people want to seek comfort in the idea of a god. Because the idea of being as unimportant as the dirt under my shoes is pretty depressing. But that's life.

Anyway I think I went a bit off-topic. What were we talking about again?

Strike Witch · #14 10-04-2011, 04:36 PM

Existence is existing, durr.

Sekto Springs · #15 10-04-2011, 10:00 PM

*touches face*
Welp, I'm real.

or am I?

STM · #16 10-05-2011, 07:28 AM

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here but any way:

How about the present & post-dark era, for all you budding astronomers, when that period of 'time' comes will there really be nothing, and if so, does the endless expense of black nothing stop existing?

Sekto Springs · #17 10-05-2011, 10:30 AM

I've noticed a spike in "prove how smart we are" discussions on OWF in the last year or so. This place used to be fun.

Jordan · #18 10-05-2011, 10:41 AM

:

I've noticed a spike in "prove how smart we are" discussions on OWF in the last year or so. This place used to be fun.

Agreed. I don't even understand why this thread exists. That's on topic, right?

STM · #19 10-05-2011, 10:41 AM

Well it beats 0 activity at all, at least this is interesting. If you don't like it don't post.

Sekto Springs · #20 10-05-2011, 10:54 AM

I'm posting my observations, that's all. It just seems like "what is existence?" is the ultimate philosophy cliche.

STM · #21 10-05-2011, 11:11 AM

Well you are more than welcome to post your own alternative thread with your own topic of choice.

MeechMunchie · #22 10-05-2011, 11:17 AM

What is teabagging?

It's rude and we should have an answer before bedtime. Problem solved.

STM · #23 10-05-2011, 11:20 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_bag_(sexual_act)?

Sekto Springs · #24 10-05-2011, 11:23 AM

I don't post threads very often, because they have little room for intelligent discussion and are generally unsuccessful.

STM · #25 10-05-2011, 11:24 AM

Have more faith in yourself Sekto.

Sekto Springs · #26 10-05-2011, 11:25 AM

I have plenty of faith in myself. Just none in the rest of you

STM · #27 10-05-2011, 11:47 AM

Probably best. I was looking at the Christianity thread I made in 2009 just now. I was a fucking xenophobic loony. Me. Scrabtrapman. Cor.

MeechMunchie · #28 10-05-2011, 01:09 PM

Yeah, you. Cor blimey. Unbelievable. Truly staggering. Completely implausible. Insane. Ridiculous. Bizarre.

IT'S SARCASM DO YOU GET IT

Nah, you're growing up pretty fast, kid.

I say 'kid'. You're half a month older than me.

Crashpunk · #29 10-06-2011, 12:58 AM

This thread is Stupid...

Phylum · #30 10-06-2011, 02:52 AM

But does stupid exist?