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  #1  
10-21-2010, 08:42 AM
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South Park writers targeted for attacks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11592915

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2010/O...-nsd-1174.html

Touch one hair on Matt or Trey's head and I'll slap those nappies off your heads.

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The US Justice Department said that in April Chesser sought to goad Islamist militants to attack the writers of the popular US cartoon South Park in retaliation for the show's depiction of Muhammad wearing a bear suit.
This was what the provocation for the threats was. Horrible isn't it?
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Last edited by Ridg3; 10-21-2010 at 11:49 AM..
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  #2  
10-21-2010, 09:32 AM
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I'm sure this all happened a while ago, didn't they try to blow up SP studios a month ago? Dullah Rullah Rag Heads aye Ridg.
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Oh yeah, fair point. Maybe he was just tortured until he lost consciousness.

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  #3  
10-21-2010, 10:08 AM
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OH GOD THE SOUTH PARK WRITERS ARE STALWART DEFENDERS OF FREE SPEECH THIS IS A TRAVESTY
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  #4  
10-21-2010, 10:12 AM
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Screw those guys, I'm going home.

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  #5  
10-21-2010, 10:55 AM
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That Muhammed guy has been shown already, I don't get it...
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  #6  
10-21-2010, 11:06 AM
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I'm sure this all happened a while ago, didn't they try to blow up SP studios a month ago? Dullah Rullah Rag Heads aye Ridg3.
Fixed.

But it's about the fact that they caught the person who was fueling the fire, as it were. And (as WOF said in all his sarcastic glory) it's about the freedom of speech and people who are trying to suppress it.
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  #7  
10-21-2010, 11:37 AM
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I'm sure this all happened a while ago, didn't they try to blow up SP studios a month ago? Dullah Rullah Rag Heads aye Ridg.
Don't patronize him, people like this Chesser guy are a disgrace to the glorious homeland.
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  #8  
10-21-2010, 12:10 PM
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My bad RidgMk.III do you know what my scariest thought is, it's people like SP who exorcise the right of Free Speech the most!
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Oh yeah, fair point. Maybe he was just tortured until he lost consciousness.

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  #9  
10-21-2010, 12:38 PM
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It's strange how they get pissed at Muhammad in a bear suit, but ignore the latest episode about becoming friends with Osama bin laden, and then shooting him.
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  #10  
10-21-2010, 12:42 PM
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Mmm, Slag, not all Islam has OBL on speed dial y'know...I'm gonna leave this comment open
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Oh yeah, fair point. Maybe he was just tortured until he lost consciousness.

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  #11  
10-21-2010, 01:30 PM
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Mmm, Slag, not all Islam has OBL on speed dial y'know...I'm gonna leave this comment open
Do we abbreviate everything?

Anyways, I was just saying, you think some people would get pissed
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  #12  
10-21-2010, 02:13 PM
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My bad RidgMk.III do you know what my scariest thought is, it's people like SP who exorcise the right of Free Speech the most!
It's like South Park piss on everything, laugh whilst picking their noses and hide behind free speech the most.

Respect.

It's an easy enough concept.
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  #13  
10-21-2010, 02:20 PM
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Islam is a blight on beliefs. Anyone who follows it is an extremist, since the Qu'aran encourages people to beat their wives, and kill people who don't follow them.

Have them all shot.
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  #14  
10-21-2010, 02:57 PM
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Funny. I have two books about Islam and a Qu'ran.

They all say different.
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  #15  
10-21-2010, 03:13 PM
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Respect.

It's an easy enough concept.
No.


Beliefs are ideas, and ideas don't get to be respected. Ideas get thrust out into the cold of the public forum with no special protection that those ideas cannot muster on its own merits. It does matter who has emotional attatchments to those ideas. "Please don't logically shred my beliefs/ridicule their own evident follies, it offends me!" is special pleading. "Don't logically shred my beliefs/ridicule their own evident follies or I'll kill you" is an appeal to the stick.

The last one is especially insidious. If anyone is threatened for speaking out against anything, we are almost bound by duty to ourselves to join in speaking out. Threats of violence in themselves are an admission that their beliefs are shakey, but more than that, those who threaten need to be made to comes to grips with the reality of modern civilisation. And if we are actually cowed into ending any critical discourse, like the cowards in office and in the media so often are, then we are proving that threats actually do inhibit our free speech and get them what they want. And it'll only happen again and again, as our rights are nibbled away if not officially, then in practice.

No. If you make any idea known, it must endure the trials. If you want to kill someone for it, fuck off. The trials will continue.
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  #16  
10-21-2010, 03:20 PM
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This story is bullshit anyway. Surely none of you are gullible enough to believe it?
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  #17  
10-21-2010, 03:30 PM
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No.


Beliefs are ideas, and ideas don't get to be respected. Ideas get thrust out into the cold of the public forum with no special protection that those ideas cannot muster on its own merits.
Why?

Why shouldn't we respect others beliefs and opinions even if we believe them to be wrong? What is so special about the truth we believe that we have to poke it in the eyes of people who believe truths we think or even know to be falsehoods?

Everyone who wants to draw Muhammed is absolutely free and entitled to, but it doesn't mean I have to like any of you for disrespecting other cultures because you can.
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  #18  
10-21-2010, 03:31 PM
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This news is like two years old.

Matt and Trey are always under fire for their political incorrectness, but don't worry, it will never result in the plug being pulled. Now when they get angry letters - be it from a media protest group or some government official from a butthurt country - the response is usually the same; "It's South Park, dude. What the fuck do you expect?".
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  #19  
10-21-2010, 04:13 PM
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Why?

Why shouldn't we respect others beliefs and opinions even if we believe them to be wrong? What is so special about the truth we believe that we have to poke it in the eyes of people who believe truths we think or even know to be falsehoods?

Everyone who wants to draw Muhammed is absolutely free and entitled to, but it doesn't mean I have to like any of you for disrespecting other cultures because you can.
I just explained the ethics and ideology of it. As for the nature of ideas themselves, if they are evidently wrong, what is there to respect? There is no value in a bad idea. I respect people (in general), not ideas, certainly not those I don't hold. If I respected them, I would agree with them!

It just compounds the ridiculousness when it is an idea itself that demands that we should respect ideas. That's circular on a meta level above and beyond the discussion.

It's not my fault that people hold to bad ideas. That in itself is not a problem, they can be discussed. Generation is ideas, that I respect, if not the ideas themselves. But it's hardly my fault if people are emotionally attached to their ideas, especially if they become so in a society where freedom of speech is valued and (theoretically) protected. That's a recipe for getting offended, and they should have seen that coming. For a good long time, it has been unwritten that ideas should be respected just because they are religious. You ask me why shouldn't we respect such ideas, but I say, why the hell should we? Because otherwise people get offended?

Well so what? We all have the right to be offended. That right ends at the right to be. Then what? The correct response is to reveal that fact, if you so wish. Two disagreeing parties may agree to avoid such in future, though they may as well end the discussion there if they do. I never would were that cause of offence was something ridiculous like a drawing, or even just the fact that I disagree, which it turns out is an actual thing. I've met people who are offended by my existance as a non-believer, and I found that astonishing.

I'm not talking about setting out to simply insult, though that on occasion is both apt and necessary. I prefer to keep things civil until the other guy has made that impossible by being a lying, evasive, dishonest, fucking moronic cunt. Elsewhere I've been talking to someone just like that. You would not believe his bullshit was genuine if I told you. But that's off topic.

The point is, ideas don't get a free ride just because someone was dim enough to develop an emotional attachment to them. The fact is if an idea has an value at all, it will be able to defend itself. You wouldn't be offended if you have a perfectly sensible counter to round with. Or you might, but that wouldn't matter. One should be able to discuss ideas over a crappy beer and be as candid as you like. I've done that myself with a Christian friend. The topic didn't come up often since we enjoyed our common ground more (I refer you to the "friend" part).

Which is another thing. Just because I say ideas should be fair game, that doesn't mean everyone must go with that. Just that stupid emotional hang-ups and the possibility of offence (or death threats) should not stop you.
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  #20  
10-22-2010, 12:22 AM
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If somebody started preaching to me then I'd be well within my right to shoot them down, but that doesn't give me the right to go around shooting people down just because I can. Even though I might be right.

I don't agree with your method. I think to move towards a true multicultural secular global community we need to do so via respect and tolerence. Not via Richard Dawkins brand of telling people what they think is wrong.
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10-22-2010, 03:04 AM
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Richard doesn't exactly approach people and argue with them, and neither do I. No one forces anyone to read his books, watch his programs, visit his website, participate in public discussions or even sit in those audiences asking questions. Offence tourists do that of their own accord.

Nothing I said is opposed to tolerance or respect. And I think open, candid discussions are the way forward, not silence and self-censorship.
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10-22-2010, 03:08 AM
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I think to move towards a true multicultural secular global community we need to do so via respect and tolerance.
I don't think attaining global unity through complete acceptance and understanding of each respective culture is very realistic (or even possible), considering the extremely varied opinions and levels of tolerance. How do you propose we convince people to accept contradicting cultures with open arms without infringing on their personal rights?
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10-22-2010, 03:12 AM
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Pretty soon the South Park studios will be destroyed somehow, The show is just getting out of hand. The originals were good but now the show is just one big middle figure to everyone and frankly, I don't find it funny anymore.
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10-22-2010, 03:22 AM
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Nothing I said is opposed to tolerance or respect. And I think open, candid discussions are the way forward, not silence and self-censorship.
Sure.

But you can bet your ass that the intentions of Draw Muhammed Day and anything related were purely malicious.
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10-22-2010, 04:09 AM
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I disagree there as well. That was a response to an earlier outrage at drawn figures of Mohammed, which were so ridiculous and out of proportion. Death threats and demands for violence over doodles? That's not just moronic, that's stone age. That's the same nonsense that led the Imam Hamid al-Ghazali (1058-1111) to declare that mathematics was the work of the devil and single-handedly ended the intellectual renaissance in the middle-east and ruined Muslim civilisation forever.

So we're getting threats and riots and actual people dying over drawings, and I don't care what they were of, that is always the wrong response. Such a response demands protest, and the best protest against idiocy and violence is ridicule. Because it's ridiculous! I said it way back in my first post, we have a duty to speak out against that kind of crap, and the very freedom of speech being threatened is the most effective and poetically apt way to do that. Violence versus prolific doodling, there's just no moral comparison.

Now I know that so many Muslims were not participating in those riots and threats, and were offended by the wave of drawings. Well so what? They can be offended. It doesn't hurt them, and the source of their offence is a protest in support of the very freedom of speech we want to safe guard for them as well. I guarantee you they have more freedoms in the west than the middle-east, perhaps one of the reasons they came here in the first place. We want to protect that for their sake as well, and being caught in what is frankly a harmless crossfire isn't even a price to be paid.

The same thing when a college student in America was being sent death threats and facing the possibility of expulsion for not eating a consecrated Jesus cracker right away. Many nails were driven through consecrated Eucharists after that. Crumbled crakcers versus threats of violence and a ruined future. It's just not comparable. It's hardly our fault that Catholics have what is quite possibly the maddest belief in religion today (and with Mormonism and Scientology around, that's saying something).

A little bit of god damned perspective is all we ask.




My favourite was a drawing of a drawing of Mohammed. Exploring the ridiculous nooks and crannies of what is offensive or forbidden by fundamentalist religions is an entertaining an necessary exercise. Let's raise some bloody awareness, and self-awareness.
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  #26  
10-22-2010, 04:19 AM
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Why don't you raise some awareness for other people's beliefs? They're not hurting you, so why hurt them?

It may be entertaining, for some people, but it sure as hell isn't necessary.
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10-22-2010, 04:44 AM
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It is necessary. It has been made necessary. This is about making people aware that ideas do not get special protection just because they are people's beliefs, and the only reason those ideas even need protection is because they're mad. Even secularists and atheists have been buying into this, and it's all nonsense, and it is how religions have defended themselves for so long. That's the intellectual issue.

The other issue is that of free speech. We have to make it clear that threats of violence, actual violence or legal action as opposed to meeting on the intellectual battlefield is not a valid tactic, will not cause us to cow away from our rights and views in fear and will lead to a massive backfire.

And any sensible religious person who stands by those rights and doesn't want to be offended in this way any more will stand by us too, and even participate.


It's not just religion. Libel laws in Britain presume guilt until innocence is proven, and libel tourism is such a problem that US congress actually passed a law protecting US citizens from being sued under British law. The British Chiropractic Association sued Dr Simon Singh for writing that they promote bogus treatments (ie chiropractic for infant cholic, infections and asthma) rather than respond with evidence that their treatments work (which they didn't have). It cost him thousands of pounds, but was unsuccessful, and also resulted in a massive backlash, which I am proud to have been a part of. 500 complaints and a serious of counter lawsuits for false advertising against individual and organised chiropractors led to the BCA recommending its members take down their websites, all of which promised efficacy of their bogus treatments. Legal action instead of defending bad ideas is not valid! And it is tantamount to an admission of ineptitude. This case is single handedly responsible for bringing changes in British libel laws to the table and creating and powering the campaign for libel reform.

This is what we can do when we actually stand up for ourselves and demand some fucking sanity.
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  #28  
10-22-2010, 04:49 AM
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:
This is about making people aware that ideas do not get special protection just because they are people's beliefs, and the only reason those ideas even need protection is because they're mad.
So the ideas are mad because they're not the same as yours? This is what you're saying?

Also, it is not the ideas that need protection, it is the people who need respect.

I'm not saying I believe the religious should respond to offensive behaviour toward their beliefs with threats of violence. In my opinion, this guy - assuming the story is true, ohmygosh terrorists threaten creators of popular TV show - is totally fucked-up.

But how does it help anyone, anyone at all, to poke fun at the beliefs of people who are totally sane, just because you don't believe the same thing as them?

It doesn't help anyone, and even if it did that doesn't make it necessary.


:
The other issue is that of free speech. We have to make it clear that threats of violence, actual violence or legal action as opposed to meeting on the intellectual battlefield is not a valid tactic, will not cause us to cow away from our rights and views in fear and will lead to a massive backfire.
So you think drawing stupid cartoons of someone that millions of people love and believe in is, as opposed to meeting on the intellectual battlefield, a valid tactic?

Last edited by enchilado; 10-22-2010 at 05:03 AM..
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  #29  
10-22-2010, 04:55 AM
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Ask the peeps who threaten violence or legal action when we don't treat their mad ideas with the respect and reverence they don't deserve.
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  #30  
10-22-2010, 05:05 AM
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Your ideas only deserve the same amount of respect theirs do.
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