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  #1  
04-10-2006, 06:57 AM
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The Gospel Of Judas

National Geographic have recently released the Gospel Of Judas Iscariot, which is believed to have been written in the 2nd century. It has been confirmed that the Gospel [from the 2nd century] is a copy of one found from 180 A.D.. As there are records of the gospel dating from that time.

If you're lazy/uniterested basically the Gospel says that Judas was favoured by Jesus and that he helped Jesus reach heaven. It says that Jesus asked Judas to sacrifice himself on earth, so that Jesus and he could go to heaven.

So it gives an entirely different view of Judas to the traditional view of traitor. So do you think this will change the way Judas is viewed in Christianity?

-- Further Info --

:
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John make up the four accepted Gospels of the Christian New Testament. Now a new gospel has been unveiled by the National Geographic Society -- one that focuses on the story of Judas Iscariot.

To most Christians, Judas is seen as a traitor, the disciple who betrayed Jesus to the Romans for 30 pieces of silver. But a newly restored papyrus document dating to the 2nd century AD portrays a very different man. Judas is shown as Jesus' best friend, asked by Jesus himself to betray his identity to fulfill the prophecy and liberate his soul to ascend to heaven.

The story of how this gospel was found, and the international effort to authenticate, conserve, and translate it, has been chronicled in the new book by Herb Krosney called The Lost Gospel.

The leather-bound papyrus codex, believed to have been translated from the original ancient Greek to the Coptic language around 300 AD, was found in the 1970s in a cave in the desert near El Minya, Egypt. It then circulated among antiquities traders, moving from Egypt to Europe to the United States. The codex languished in a safe deposit box on Long Island, N.Y., for 16 years before being bought in 2000 by Zurich-based antiquities dealer Frieda Nussberger-Tchacos.

When attempts to resell the manuscript fell through, Tchacos -- alarmed by the codex’s rapidly deteriorating state -- transferred it to the Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art in Basel, Switzerland, in February 2001 for conservation and translation.

Rodolphe Kasser, one of the world’s leading Coptic scholars, was recruited to reconstruct the manuscript and to transcribe and translate the text. The 66-page manuscript contains not only the Gospel of Judas but also a text titled James (also known as First Apocalypse of James), a letter of Peter to Philip and a fragment of a fourth text scholars for now are calling the Book of Allogenes.
Question: What is in this lost gospel about Judas? What does it say about Judas Iscariot?

Answer: Judas is actually in a totally revised relationship to Jesus. He is Jesus' favorite disciple -- he is the person who enables Jesus to reach the heavens, and he himself is a star in the sky, according to the words of Jesus.

Q: This is not the Judas Iscariot that we know from the Bible. In the Bible, Judas betrays Jesus, but this gospel tells a different story -- Judas' version of what happened. How is it different? What does he say?

A: First of all, Judas and Jesus are meeting in some nether land possibly after the Resurrection. There's no direct mention of the Resurrection. Judas is a different kind of character. He's the person who is asked to make the ultimate sacrifice. And that sacrifice is to sacrifice the life of Jesus in order that Jesus may attain eternity and immortality. And Judas is the one who enables all of us to help find that inner spark within ourselves. I think that the gospel of Judas Iscariot is actually a very reverent document coming from approximately the 2nd century -- well after the four gospels accepted as the canonical gospels were actually written. We don't really know 100 percent that it's Judas' account. We know that a writer in the 2nd century told this story, which is the story of the encounter between Judas Iscariot and Jesus some time after the Resurrection. Judas is actually Jesus' best friend. Judas is the one who enables Jesus to fulfill his mission -- to die and to release that inner spark within himself and within all of us that is the divine. And that is the concept of this absolutely rare 2nd-century document, which is just coming to light.

Q: Jesus in this account instructs Judas to betray him?

A: Yes... and it's implied in some words in the actual canonical Testament -- but in here, it's quite explicit. Jesus is asking Judas to make the ultimate sacrifice -- to sacrifice himself -- and to enable Jesus to fulfill his mission on Earth.

Q: This gospel is written on papyrus, this ancient Egyptian form of paper. It probably dates from about the year 300 (AD). How was it re-discovered? It lay hidden for about 1,700 years?

A: First of all, we believe that it was buried in a burial cave in a place called Kararra, which is on the eastern side of the Nile. It was discovered by some peasants and it was sold to a dealer in Cairo and made the journey from Kararra... Then it began a really incredible 30-year journey which I've tried to trace through the world of antiquities dealers -- people not really knowing what it was, and all the time in a state of constant progressing deterioration.

Q: People didn't know what it was, because it's written in this ancient Coptic language. And even though they knew that had a valuable ancient document, they didn't know how valuable.

A: The first value assigned by the dealer was $3 million -- and $3 million in the early 1980s was an awful lot of money. It may seem a little bit less today, but not much less. It was an unheard-of sum among people who wanted to buy it, and there were people who wanted buy it up until 1983 and 1984.

Q: But they were just buying an ancient document. They didn't know that this was the gospel of Judas?

A: That is correct. They didn't know it was the gospel of Judas. It was not really identified as the gospel of Judas until the year 2000.

Q: That's when a Swiss dealer actually bought it out of a bank vault out on Long Island, which is quite a long story of how it got there, but it lay there for about 16 years. She takes it to Yale and a scholar there says: "This is an unbelievable discovery. I can read this -- it says on the last page, 'This is the gospel of Judas.'"

A: Actually, a scholar in 1983 in Geneva -- also a Yale PhD -- had looked at it, and he had seen the word Judas, but he didn't think it was Judas Iscariot, he thought it was another Judas, Judas Thomas. [That] would have more or less correlated with an earlier find called the Na Kamari, which had been discovered in Egypt in 1945. But this document was absolutely unique, and it is the only remaining testament that we know of a document that was originally written in the 2nd century.

Q: And how do the scholars actually know this is authentic, was really written in the 2nd century? Because there's been so many forgeries, there's so much more to be made from these dealings and things -- how do we know?

A: St. Irenaeus, who lived in the city that is now Lyon, France, wrote a condemnation of this particular document in the year 180 AD -- so we know that original document written in Greek was a valid document -- [that it] was in currency in the early Christian world. It was part of disputes that were flaming within early Christianity.

Q: But there was such a thing as the gospel of Judas?

A: There absolutely was. What we have is a Coptic copy of that Greek original document. Greek and Coptic are written with the same essential lettering but the document had deteriorated considerable. The calligraphy was such that it was almost inevitably judged at first sight by the experts to be a genuine document. At National Geographic, as soon as we got our hands on it, we set up a filming date near Geneva, Switzerland. We filmed the document being examined. Carbon 14 dating estimated this document as coming from an average year of 280, give or take 60 years on either side

Q: How are Biblical scholars going to regard this document? I mean, I guess that's going to be the subject for a while because these translations are new... But how is this going to change our understandings of early Christianity?

A: I think that the gospel of Judas -- the lost gospel -- opens up quite a bit more of the history of the 2nd and 3rd centuries, where we really do not know a lot about early Christianity. Early Christianity was a very diverse movement. The split from Judaism was just occurring. There were remnants from Jewish messianism. We see it to some extent in the gospel of Judas -- we see a whole potential history beginning to unfold, one that we have not really been able to appreciate because the 2nd and 3rd centuries have remained in considerable obscurity over the years.

Q: The gospel's been translated now, it's still in the process of conservation, most of it is kind of stabilized. What will happen to the gospel? Where's it going to go?

A: The gospel first off will be made available for viewing by the public. There's going to be an exhibition that National Geographic is mounting which will also feature aspects of 2nd and 3rd century history and the whole history of how Christianity split from Judaism and evolved into a separate and distinct religion. At the end of the day, the Maecenas Foundation in Switzerland -- which is the owners of the document -- will be donating the document to the government of Egypt, which is where it was found, and will be housed eventually in the Coptic museum in Cairo.

Q: Could you read something from the gospel?

A: (reading) "The star that leads the way is your star, Jesus said to Judas... You will exceed all of them for you will have sacrificed the man that clothes me."

Q: Meaning you will … turn me over to the Romans, and they will crucify me and my spirit will move from the body -- my soul…

A:What he means, as the scholars interpret it, is the soul of Jesus will be liberated from the body that entraps him. His soul is now liberated to come to heaven.

Q: Herb, how do you know that this document that you have is authentic?

A: There's been a process -- first of all, scientific dating, such as carbon dating, which has established the age of the papyrus. We've also at done tests [at National Geographic] on the ink [in which] it was written, and it corresponds with the ink that was [used] at the time. And various calligraphers and philologists that have looked at the document -- some who are among the greatest in the world -- have looked at this, and have no doubt as to its authenticity.

Q: What did it look like when this Swiss woman finally got a hold of it? What kind of shape was it in? She opened these boxes and looked at it -- what did she see?

A: Well, by the time that the Swiss lady who purchased it got to it, it was really a mess. It was practically indecipherable. The pages had been molded and blended together so that it was an incredible job of restoration to separate out the pages. There were numerous fragments that had been floating around, and all of this became a jigsaw puzzle that the experts this great restorer... had to solve. And they worked for five years now, since the middle of the year 2001 up to now, getting this document back to something we can read.

Q: Herb, you're a writer, I know -- not a religious scholar. But can you foresee a time... when this gospel might be included in the New Testament?

A: I would really doubt that it might be included in the New Testament. In early Christianity, there were at least 30 potential gospels floating around, and there were dozens and dozens if not hundreds of original documents which were winnowed down at an early stage in the 3rd and 4th centuries which became the New Testament and the basis of the new religion called Christianity. I don't think that any apocryphal document will now be accepted in the canon of orthodox Christianity. But what this document does is it opens us up into a whole world of history that we had not been able to fully appreciate before, and it gives a new and different interpretation of both Judas and his relationship to Jesus.

Q: An apocryphal document?

A: Well, what was accepted as the canon of the New Testament was one thing, and there are many other documents floating around in early Christianity we can still read today [that] are documents of great interest, but are not accepted as divine revelation. And I think that probably -- almost undoubtedly -- the gospel of Judas, the lost gospel -- will fall into that second category.

- Rexy
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  #2  
04-10-2006, 11:30 AM
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Probably just another ''Hitler's Diary''. Fake. If it's real, could have a big impact on religion.
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  #3  
04-10-2006, 01:21 PM
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Maybe the media will draw incredible attention to it, but there's probably more ancient text talking about Biblical Figures that isn't in the Bible than there is in it. Hasn't changed anything.
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04-10-2006, 03:15 PM
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I'm not sure what to believe, but It sounds interesting and I like it. Shed some more light on the situation
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  #5  
04-11-2006, 06:38 AM
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As he says himself, there are approximately 30 gospels giving their own version of the story, each as different as the original four are to each other. So, even if this is real, I'd give this as much credibility as I give the canonical gospels. Which is not much.
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  #6  
04-11-2006, 10:07 AM
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Sounds about as authoritative as non-eyewitness accounts written 40 years after the fact without claim of authorship that openly plagarize from each other.
Oh wait...
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04-12-2006, 09:36 AM
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You being really one sided...from gathering of what you say. The question through out. Do you believe fate? Or do you take the choice in your hands. We have a choice and that choice was made of Judas did.

ka ka ka sounding like the matrix.

Oracle is jesus told his desiples (excuse the spelling the 12) exactly what they wanted to hear. And Judas choose to the choice. I am a catholic and I believe in the scriptures and I am not sure but I read revelations at some point. Cause Judas does hang himselfs and his ashes were spread across the field. I remeber a friend recall that as Exploding Judas. The thing I am unsure about is was cast down or up.
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04-12-2006, 10:57 AM
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I am a catholic and I believe in the scriptures and I am not sure but I read revelations at some point.
Try believing in better grammar, instead.
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04-13-2006, 10:16 AM
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Try believing in better grammar, instead.
I am sorry but English is not my first language. I come from Hong Kong
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04-13-2006, 11:05 AM
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I am sorry but English is not my first language. I come from Hong Kong
Oh, got ya.

I can forgive you if you don't speak it well, but being born in America and typing like that would get you yelled at.
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04-30-2006, 08:07 AM
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Oh, got ya.

I can forgive you if you don't speak it well, but being born in America and typing like that would get you yelled at.
Really! That bad huh! You are from essex right. Is that in UK?
How come you know of American life.

I saw in the good retail shops like Waterstones and Border, you can actually buy the Gospel of Judas to read.
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04-30-2006, 08:08 AM
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Oh, got ya.

I can forgive you if you don't speak it well, but being born in America and typing like that would get you yelled at.
Really! That bad huh! You are from essex right. Is that in UK?
How come you know of American life.

I saw in the good retail shops like Waterstones and Border, you can actually buy the Gospel of Judas to read. Any you people interested in buying it?
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04-30-2006, 08:10 AM
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Sorry about the double post!
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04-30-2006, 08:15 AM
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triple post 5000, anyway, the gospel of Judas doesn't fit in with the rest of the bible, so I'm pretty sure it is a scam
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04-30-2006, 08:33 AM
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If it's a scam, it should fit in the bible perfectly.
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04-30-2006, 08:44 AM
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There's about 20 gospels, so saying that they all must fit together completely is stupid. Just because it doesn't agree with the 4 main books doesn't mean it's a scam.

It's also just another point of view.

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04-30-2006, 09:04 AM
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it doesn't fit in with all of the prophecies in the old testament, which the 4 do
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04-30-2006, 12:20 PM
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Then why don't they fit in with each other?

And why don't Genesis 1 and 2 tell the same story? Though that's the Old Testament and is admittedly a slightly different scenario.

:
I saw in the good retail shops like Waterstones and Border, you can actually buy the Gospel of Judas to read. Any you people interested in buying it?
That surprises me. I was under the impression that the full Gospel hadn't been released yet.
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04-30-2006, 12:54 PM
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The Judas thing might be true. I mean Jesus had to die for everyone's sinns, and in the Gospel of Judas, Judas was told by Jesus to 'betray' him. It makes perfect sense.
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05-02-2006, 03:15 AM
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Yup, true in a sense BUT this creates the idea. Was is it fate that Judas did it cause God planned/told him too.

Or did he have a choice. Did Judus choose to do betray as he was control of his own life. Did Jesus expect to die as he knew that Judas would be one is going to betray him. For he didnt do anything to stop it.
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05-02-2006, 12:36 PM
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Apparently this is really rattling the cages of a lot of Christians. Would they be pissed if somebody released a book about the beliefs of the Marcionites or Ebionites? Anybody who thinks this is a serious challenge to Christianity is insane. I will say thoguh that early church history in regards to cannon squabbles, redaction, and false attribution is far more interesting and damaging. As is comparative religion and the writings of Schenck, Campbell, etc. about the Mythic Hero archetype. Whatever.
Edit: Don't buy it, hunt for it online. Its free. Try infidels.org or something, they're usually quick on the uptake.
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05-02-2006, 01:38 PM
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Then why don't they fit in with each other?

And why don't Genesis 1 and 2 tell the same story? Though that's the Old Testament and is admittedly a slightly different scenario.


That surprises me. I was under the impression that the full Gospel hadn't been released yet.
they do, you actually need to study the Bible to get it, which I doubt you do, I don't but I've read commentary
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05-03-2006, 08:24 AM
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Christianity is a syncretic religion. From the hijacking of its preposterous creation account all the way down to its main teaching of a mythical, Disciple having, special meal eating, miracle performing God child(see Osiris, Mithras, Dionysus, Heracles, and the other 31 one flavors of mystery religion and anarcho-cultic wicky-in-the-wacky-woo that were floating around in 1st century Rome). Trust me, I "get" it. I'm just not all that impressed.
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05-07-2006, 11:51 AM
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I would consider the bible written in the form of the game of 'chinese whispers.' I doubt it written at all, mostly spoken in stories. Story keepers and each had a different way of telling it. At that point you can exagernrate!

The bible is not a complete book. There is a gospel that is still rejected to existance of the religous community. The Gospel of Thomas. Any of yous' seen the film stigmata. The Gospel of Thomas defies the church laws.
1. It say that there is no need for churches or cathedrals. -it says it in a symbollic way-and the list goes on.
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05-09-2006, 01:13 PM
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Exactly, Ninjaxe. And nowhere else is this more evident than in the falsely attributed "Gospel" accounts. Check out the schizophrenia that is the easter account starting with the two earliest dated and recorded ones in Mark, then Luke, Matthew and John. Every time the story is longer and more elaborate. We start with Mark's story of "A woman sees the tomb is empty and tells some people about it. The End." and finish with bodily appearences of Christ, a brace of angels descending from heaven to roll the tombstone back, the dead rising the grave, and Jesus appearing to hundreds of believers and going back to Heaven triumphant. Every time easter would roll around I would think of Pecos Bill or Paul Bunyan. It wouldn't surprise me if at one time these guys existed as humans and were good at being a cowboy, lumberjack, or preacher/moral teacher but everything beyond that is just a load of horsehockey.
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