COVID-19

[Phoetux]

I'm near becoming a necromancer of forums with all these new threads in the last days, but I thought this topic would've been worth discussing here.

Since the first days of March most of the countries (mine included) went into lockdown due to the COVID-19 pandemic, forcing everyone to go into self-isolation in their own home and venture into new spacing and health security measures. First only a few nations had to go through this, but a bit later the entire world had to face this new threat.



Now the cases of infected are going down in some nations, in some (incredibly) are not.
How were your experiences in this dangerous phase all of us had to go through? And what are your expectations regarding the future, after all of this is over?

[Alf Shall Rise]

i had it back in March but fortunately my symptoms were very light, though i've been getting winded more often than i used to - not constantly, but it's significant.

my job was closed up until around mid-June, though i started working remotely i believe during May (very small amount of work). i was also paid normally throughout, thank god. i lucked out with that. one of the perks of being a local government employee.

[MA]

this corona shit has made me a little panicky if i'm honest. it hit home when it became mandatory for everyone to fucking hide indoors and wear a face mask if out and about. i'm pretty sure that has never been a thing in britain during my lifespan at least. pretty much reminds me of this dumb comic



i don't know what to think really. i'm also dubious about taking any vaccines they start flinging out to the people because it's all very rushed. i'm not an "anti-vaxxer", fuck no, but in this case it's not like they have the advantage of time in cooking up this miracle cure. how do they know for certain there won't be any long-term debilitating effects? that kind of shit has happened before, it isn't foolproof, and i'm too fucking paranoid to just blindly do as i'm told and take my medicine.

right now i'm at a fork in the road where i don't know what to do, and instead of coming to a conclusion i've decided to sit down and have a picnic at the crossroads while i think about it, even though there's no time, and even though everything around me is on fire. i don't know.

[Varrok]

please don't insult gunshow comics

[Oddey]

First, the reports came out of China that they were erecting a hospital in just a week to house the sick and infected. I dismissed it as typical media palaver, designed to work people into a frenzy about something far away and that it would blow over within a month and we'd never hear of it again.

Images began to circulate showing often crowded and packed parts of China in a state of total desertion, as though humanity had been scrubbed from existence. It was surreal, but I paid it little mind and assumed it would be cleared up soon.

Somewhere after that, I saw a post on 4chan that said something to the effect of China was lying about the numbers and the actual number of infected and the death toll was absurdly high. I thought it was worrying, but I ultimately put it aside and out of my mind.

Then came the reports of Chinese borders closing and people being stuck in hotel rooms in China, where they couldn't leave and had to wait on room service to bring them food. I began to wonder what kind of illness this could be that would bring about such radical policies, but I consoled myself by saying "it's China, they're authoritarian and it's probably just them flexing a muscle".

Suddenly there was talk on the radio about the virus spreading to Europe. I paid it little credence and heard an off-hand quote from WHO claiming there was extremely little chance it would spread to Denmark or even Europe altogether and that their techniques for preventing spread of disease would stifle it immediately. So, once again, I paid it no mind. Then Italy erupted in cases and I rolled my eyes saying "of course the Italians are the ones that slip up. Never mind, we have better government here, we'll just wait it out". When other parts of Europe reported cases, though, I had a different thought: "I hope it comes here, then I can stay home from university, saving me hours of transport by bus". In my ignorance, at the time, I assumed it was much like any other flu virus and was a case of feeling queasy and ill for a week or two, then going back to normal. I joked with friends that people were overreacting to something that was merely a case of sniffles.

That is, until more detailed explanations and stories about the effects of Covid-19, the ease with which it spread and the difficulty associated with preventing infection came to light. Suddenly, rather than joking, I was concerned. I was all too happy when my university decided to close down, both because it granted me the time out of public transport that I had wanted but also because the atmosphere around had changed so dramatically that I didn't want to be in a crowded classroom.

It's been very interesting to see this problem escalate so dramatically. It's been gratifying to have some changes to daily life that I've always felt surely must be possible, such as remote learning or digital solutions over the internet. It's been worrying to feel like we know so little about a modern problem and have it revealed that advice on what to do is constantly shifting and there are no guarantees of anything. It's been nice to scratch out a huge chunk of my day-to-day that would ordinarily be devoted to transport and university and replace it with all kinds of other endeavors.

I would like to believe that at the end of this crisis, we will see lasting changes originating from this. My gut tells me we won't.

My concern for the future is in how this ends. A vaccine, from the little I've read, doesn't sound likely. Even if it does come about, it could take years to manufacture and distribute appropriately. There is, I suspect, going to be quite a long time where interactions with others are limited and our lives are dramatically different.

[Nate]

how do they know for certain there won't be any long-term debilitating effects?

Because while you're right that side effects from vaccines have happened before, they know from those past times that side effects tend to show up within six months in adults. Which is why the vaccines, even though early signs are they will be effective, aren't being handed out already. They're waiting for the six months to be up to make sure there won't be side effects.

Bear in mind that they're not inventing new ways to create vaccines here. This is all established technology being used on a new virus.

[MA]

oh okay, thanks Nate. that's eased my mind a little.

paranoia!

[Dixanadu]

There are worse things in the world that'll kill you than Covid.

It's a media circus. I'm done arguing over figures and statistics.

The whole 'pandemic' is a fucking sham.

[Nate]

There are worse things in the world that'll kill you than Covid.

It's a media circus. I'm done arguing over figures and statistics.

The whole 'pandemic' is a fucking sham.

5% of people in the US who are tested positive will die. One in 20. Shut the fuck up.

[Nepsotic]

There are worse things in the world that'll kill you than Covid.

It's a media circus. I'm done arguing over figures and statistics.

The whole 'pandemic' is a fucking sham.

Okay rat licker

[Varrok]

There are worse things in the world that'll kill you than Covid.

It's a media circus. I'm done arguing over figures and statistics.

The whole 'pandemic' is a fucking sham.

5% of people in the US who are tested positive will die. One in 20. Shut the fuck up.

It is a big stretch to call the pandemic a sham, but its death toll (at 812,758 in the time of writing this) is currently lower than any of the following:
- Yearly death toll of smoking ( approx. 7 000 000 )
- Yearly death toll of alcohol ( approx. 3 000 000 )
- Yearly death toll of driving accidents ( approx. 1 350 000 )

Of course, the year has not yet ended, and Coronavirus will take more lives, might unfortunately double, I'm guessing. While I do understand media's burning desire to gain viewership by broadcasting about the virus because it's trendier than to talk about the "usual" causes of death people don't want to hear about, I don't think we should ignore this one.

In fact, why don't we try to avoid all of those death causes? That would be nice.

[MA]

It is a big stretch to call the pandemic a sham, but its death toll (at 812,758 in the time of writing this) is currently lower than any of the following:
- Yearly death toll of smoking ( approx. 7 000 000 )
- Yearly death toll of alcohol ( approx. 3 000 000 )

you can't compare the fatalities of covid with that of cigarettes and alcohol, that makes no sense. people willingly smoke and drink, and both are addictive. of course their death tolls are going to be higher. people aren't willingly contracting corona. if there was 7 million people dying from covid i think we would be royally fucked.

[OddjobAbe]

In fact, why don't we try to avoid all of those death causes? That would be nice.

We do - that's why there are drinking guidelines, health warnings on cigarette packets and a highway code (and DUI laws). But this has nothing to do with covid-19.

Cynical though I often am, in this instance, it seems justifiable that a novel coronavirus which has just swept the Earth, impacting not only people's direct health but also reshaping the economy and thereby affecting people's domestic and working lives, receives regular media coverage. I don't think it's just for a few extra clicks...

you can't compare the fatalities of covid with that of cigarettes and alcohol, that makes no sense. people willingly smoke and drink, and both are addictive. of course their death tolls are going to be higher. people aren't willingly contracting corona. if there was 7 million people dying from covid i think we would be royally fucked.

This, and bear in mind possible long-term health effects that could emerge, too. That covid-19 is new is a very important detail.

[Varrok]

you can't compare the fatalities of covid with that of cigarettes and alcohol, that makes no sense. people willingly smoke and drink, and both are addictive. of course their death tolls are going to be higher. people aren't willingly contracting corona. if there was 7 million people dying from covid i think we would be royally fucked.

The reason I showed those statistics is to show the scale of the problem. Although I don't share Dixanadu's emotional indifference (if you could call it that) towards the virus problem, he doesn't strike me as incorrect when he says there are avoidable things that kill more people than COVID-19.

We do - that's why there are drinking guidelines, health warnings on cigarette packets and a highway code (and DUI laws). But this has nothing to do with covid-19.

Living near the alley of pubs, I can safely say it's as effective as our COVID-19 prevention.

Cynical though I often am, in this instance, it seems justifiable that a novel coronavirus which has just swept the Earth, impacting not only people's direct health but also reshaping the economy and thereby affecting people's domestic and working lives, receives regular media coverage. I don't think it's just for a few extra clicks...

It is far from me to expect mainstream news outlets to have anything other (such as getting people well informed about things around them) than their own financial benefit as their top priority. I suppose I'm more cynical then.

[OddjobAbe]

The reason I showed those statistics is to show the scale of the problem. Although I don't share Dixanadu's emotional indifference (if you could call it that) towards the virus problem, he doesn't strike me as incorrect when he says there are avoidable things that kill more people than COVID-19.

But the examples you gave largely involve a significant degree of personal choice and have a much longer history than covid-19.

Living near the alley of pubs, I can safely say it's as effective as our COVID-19 prevention.

Not really comparable, though - people who go to pubs are specifically choosing to drink (without getting into the issue of alcohol dependecy, which would be tangential). So what do we do about that? Employ bouncers to rip pints out of people's hands? You can argue about the efficacy of the measures which supposedly control the issues you listed, but the point is that these are matters which are addressed, and have been for years.

It is far from me to expect mainstream news outlets to have anything other (such as getting people well informed about things around them) than their own financial benefit as their top priority. I suppose I'm more cynical then.

This is why there has been some dreadful and irresponsible coverage about covid-19, including the lack of media sympathy in the UK when it came to the recommendations of the British Medical Association that schools should not open too early, and including unpleasant figures such as Nick Ferrari openly deriding homeworkers as lazy because having fewer people go to into work and risk contracting/spreading a novel coronavirus means that Pret a Manger might not make so much money. It is, unfortunately, more complex than "corona=click". The issue has been misappropriated by some in order to score points for their given ideology, but don't make the mistake of assuming that this means it's not a actually a very serious issue.

[STM]

In the UK the government has committed to a eugenics programme whereby the elderly and people with special needs are being funnelled through care homes. Yesterday the MSM finally reported that ALL care home patients that contract COVID are given DNR orders.

The care home population comprises 0.02% of the UK population but over 15% of COVID deaths.

So you are elderly or have severe special needs. You have fought desperately just to survive through life. Someone in your carehome contracts COVID. You cannot see your friends or family anymore. Your home is understaffed so your already limited care is even further restricted. You are scared and confused, your mental health deteriorates as more and more of your friends and caregivers get sick. Many of them die. This is a genocide. This is how our government removes the elderly and the disabled from our population: weaponising a plague and the awful state of our healthcare provision.

Care insurance providers have increased their premiums by an average of 880%.

More than 50% of carehomes are being pressured to take untested new patients.

The largest private care provider has ZERO access to testing equipment.

Scottish governmental guidance tells carehomes not to send infected patients to hospital. Instead, they should be left to die in the fucking prisons we as a society have created for them.

Fuck this virus. Fuck the government. Fuck our pathological inability to organise against these abhorrent acts of inhumanity.

[MA]

seriously, words can't really describe how fucked up that is. jesus christ.

i've always suspected that our government and many others are savage ugly monsters who will silence anyone that makes an issue for them, but when you occasionally get a glimpse at what is really going on behind the scenes and how systematic and calculated it is, like we're just oblivious cattle being led by the nose through an abattoir, it scares the shit out of me. genuinely. they literally don't care.

[Varrok]

But the examples you gave largely involve a significant degree of personal choice and have a much longer history than covid-19.

I shouldn't derail the topic too much, but knowing how physically addictive those substances can be, combined with the social pressure to at lest try them (if only once, and I suppose we all know it doesn't end at the first try), I don't put it into a whole different realm of choice than the choice to go out less often during the pandemic, wearing protective gear like visors when you do, disinfecting hands (and then face) when you go back. And I don't mean it in a way to diminish the pandemic's importance (it's a big issue), but rather highlight the other deadly problem more than it is being highlighted.

In the UK the government has committed to a eugenics programme whereby the elderly and people with special needs are being funnelled through care homes. Yesterday the MSM finally reported that ALL care home patients that contract COVID are given DNR orders.

Out of curiosity: Can you resuscitate a person without a risk of contracting the virus yourself? (I'm assuming mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is necessary). Some sort of mechanical plastic pumps?

This is a genocide. This is how our government removes the elderly and the disabled from our population: weaponising a plague and the awful state of our healthcare provision.

I understand feelings of empathy towards the elderly, but I wouldn't go as far as to say the government deliberately wants any of the country's population dead.

[MA]

I shouldn't derail the topic too much, but knowing how physically addictive those substances can be, combined with the social pressure to at lest try them (if only once, and I suppose we all know it doesn't end at the first try), I don't put it into a whole different realm of choice than the choice to go out less often during the pandemic, wearing protective gear like visors when you do, disinfecting hands (and then face) when you go back.

well it doesn't matter what realm you put them in, they're two completely different things. you're comparing a contagion that we do not have a vaccine for, that has the capacity to kill you, with smoking and drinking (and DUI for some weird reason). that's like comparing space travel with a baboons arse. they do not correlate. smoking and drinking is more of a long-term potential issue that stems from addiction and drug abuse, and usually begins voluntarily, and it's not friggin contagious. can't you see how that completely contrasts with a pandemic? maybe you should stop defending points that are invalid, because your comparison does not work. would you like to drag this out some more or can we move on?

And I don't mean it in a way to diminish the pandemic's importance (it's a big issue), but rather highlight the other deadly problem more than it is being highlighted.

i don't know if i'm misreading you here, but are you saying that smoking-related deaths are 'the other deadly problem'? during a pandemic? i mean, i have to ask because that seems too stupid to be the case. i'm hoping i'm wrong.

Out of curiosity: Can you resuscitate a person without a risk of contracting the virus yourself? (I'm assuming mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is necessary). Some sort of mechanical plastic pumps?

you can use a resuscitation bag to keep someone breathing without physically performing mouth-to-mouth, therefore DNR orders raise red flags.

I understand feelings of empathy towards the elderly, but I wouldn't go as far as to say the government deliberately wants any of the country's population dead.

hah. good one, varrok. i'm sure all they want is world peace and free love and money for the poor. building a wheelchair ramp for tiny tim is high on their list of priorities.

that's me being cynical.

[OddjobAbe]

I shouldn't derail the topic too much, but knowing how physically addictive those substances can be, combined with the social pressure to at lest try them (if only once, and I suppose we all know it doesn't end at the first try), I don't put it into a whole different realm of choice than the choice to go out less often during the pandemic, wearing protective gear like visors when you do, disinfecting hands (and then face) when you go back. And I don't mean it in a way to diminish the pandemic's importance (it's a big issue), but rather highlight the other deadly problem more than it is being highlighted.

As MA has pointed out, there's no equivalence between those issues and covid-19. You also can't argue that concern for covid-19 is supplanting concern for those issues, because there are existing measures that try to address those issues (and have been for decades), so for all you can debate the efficacy of whatever your country's measures are, covid-19 is clearly the most urgent issue at the moment, given its novelty and especially given its wide range of indirect effects, not just on health, but the economy.

I understand feelings of empathy towards the elderly, but I wouldn't go as far as to say the government deliberately wants any of the country's population dead.

At best, they don't care. The UK's Prime Minister (or more accurately, his advisor, Dominic Cummings - we all know who's really in charge) is reported to have remarked during a conference that they should pursue a strategy that aims to reach herd immunity as quickly as possible and "if that means a few old people die, too bad". This was disputed by No. 10, in fairness, but given that Cummings is a noted eugenicist, I'm not sure their word can be taken at face value, as the remark seems consistent with Cummings' political beliefs.

[Oddey]

I'm not sure that Varrok's point is so much that smoking, drinking or DUI is comparable to coronavirus, so much as it is an attempt to expand upon Dixandu's point that there are "worse things to die of", regardless of their legitimate point of comparison to Covid-19. Which, thinking about it, seems to be near enough impossible, seeing as how Covid-19 isn't really comparable to many other modern diseases or illnesses in terms of our ability to combat or deal with it.

[Varrok]

It was indeed what my point was. Apologies if it came across as anything other than that.

Obviously we've never had a similar pandemic during our lifetimes to compare to this one. I wouldn't say Swine flu counts.

What's the deal with this whole herd immunity, anyway?

[OddjobAbe]

It was a bit of a shitstorm over here, because the chief scientific advisor outlined that one of the desired outcomes of the Government's strategy of doing piss-all* was that the virus would spread further and wider in a shorter space of time, the idea being that more people would develop immunity to the virus faster, thereby making it less likely for remaining people who aren't immune to contract it. In fact, the Prime Minister appeared on television and used the words "take it on the chin and let it move through the population". Great policy to adopt for an unknown virus. Obviously, this would be a terrible idea that would result in (and it seems has resulted in - they've argued that they haven't pursued 'herd immunity' officially, but they've been very slow to introduce measures when they've eventually succumb to duress, so whether that's the official position or not, the effect is the same) very many preventable deaths. And now it looks like it's possible to become reinfected, it seems like a somehow even worse idea.

*it looks like the Guardian's all I read with these links, but I promise it isn't - I don't even really like it that much

[Varrok]

Yeah, that's similar to what I heard about it, but the whole premise feels like a very twisted logic. Considering the fact that when you contract the virus, your body does try to attack it (that's to my knowledge what causes many of the problems, as the virus disguises itself in the lungs, and the immune systems attacks the whole areas of them, including healthy cells).

[Vexen]

This plague — the rioting is intensifying to the point where we may not be able to contain it.

[Varrok]

[Oddey]

This plague — the rioting is intensifying to the point where we may not be able to contain it.

I imagine you've been waiting nearly 20 years for this moment.

[Nate]

What's the deal with this whole herd immunity, anyway?

In theory, if enough people have immunity to a virus, it means that any time the virus enters the population, it'll hit a dead end of people who are immune and thus won't be able to pass it on. So then, if there are people who don't have immunity they won't catch it because the virus is unlikely to reach them.

Details vary for virus to virus. But to give an example, if 90-95% of the population have the measles vaccine, it's very unlikely that the remaining 5-10% of the population will catch it. If everyone who could take the vaccine had it, that 5-10% would be made up only of people who are immunocompromised and thus can't take the vaccine, as well as the small percentage of people who receive the vaccine but don't gain immunity.

It's not a sharp target number though. The larger the percentage of people who have immunity, the less the virus will spread. It's just that a certain point it becomes almost an impossibility.

But that's just context on the concept of herd immunity. In the case of COVID-19, anyone who suggests we should aim for herd immunity right now is willfully ignorant and dangerous. The fact is, we don't yet know that catching COVID-19 even grants you significant levels of immunity, and if it does, how long that lasts. What we do know is that other coronaviruses tend to only have immune responses that last for months, which is not enough to give any real protection. In the case of COVID-19, we know that not everyone who catches it has a measurable immune response; people who have been tested positive while they were sick were then given antibody tests later and came up negative. It is also thought that the many asymptomatic carriers of the virus are less likely to have a measurable immune response, which may mean that they could then catch it again and again and pass it around multiple times.

To summarise; given the number of things we don't know about COVID-19, and given the few things we do know about it, it is clear that the concept of herd immunity through widespread natural infection is likely impossible, and anyone who suggests it is, as I said before, willfully ignorant and dangerous.


And to add to that that anyone who says 'It'll just be a couple of old people who die' is really, completely full of shit. Plenty of young folk have died. And even if the death rate were low (which it isn't), the number of people who have long-term, serious side effects is seriously worrying.

[kapteeni13]

True. This whole Covid-19 is the worst shit of this year. It has given me anxious disappointed feeling how some people treat it like regular flu fever. This thing may leave you with some permanent problems to lungs if you catch it and depending on how your body can take it.

People also have claimed that children won't spread Covid-19 here but cases started happening after schools opened.

Not sure about vaccines that might come here later though. It's just that how much have they tested them before put them public. Some years ago here was vaccines that caused narcolepsy.

Hope you wash hands, disinfect, have distance and stay safe.

[STM]

Covid brought Kapteeni back to OWF.

I now love covid.

I now love Kapteeni