Oddworld at E3 2014

[Holy Sock]

I really don't think you can say that confidently. I don't think you could really judge the diminished impressions of an Oddworld virgin exposed to New 'n' Tasty in relation to your own when you first played Abe's Oddysee.

[Slog Bait]

I can. I just did.

Now I'll have two times the AO (kind of) to shove in peoples' faces, and force them to compare the two. bueheheh

Marketing wise no one I've shown NNT to is even remotely interested much less have any understanding of what to expect from the game. Meanwhile, showing them the marketing from AO pulls people in immediately, and they have a general idea of what to expect. These are all people with different tastes, and opinions in general.

AO came out over a decade ago and still does a better job pulling people in than NNT currently does.

This worries me.

[MeechMunchie]

Also, eh, I'm not necessarily saying it's going to be objectively worse, but it seems like it will be objectively boring. Like, "I've seen this before, and not just when I played the original" kind of boring. Sure, it's going to look all nice and shiny and pretty but... it's not going to have the same kind of impact on people that AO would based on presentation alone.

I know I'm taking the side of Progress (vs. Preservation) here, but I still don't think it's reasonable to fault a remake for being reminiscent of the original. I mean, yeah, it's going to share mechanics. I thought that's what the nostaligia kids wanted.

And that's the problem with making a game to please nostalgiphiles - they'll always like the old version more than anything you make. So why not go nuts and change everything? If a game can't trade solely on its lineage, it needs to stand on its own feet; to a degree at least.

As for newcomers, I think it's probably fair to say that kids don't find the same things cool as they did in the '90s. The story is fundamentally identical, so doesn't "impact" just come down to delivering it in a style that the modern youth can appreciate? I like the gloomy '90s Oddworld, too. But kids these days, that's anyone's guess.

[Slog Bait]

Oddworld isn't a kids game, and never was. They're marketing it in a way that doesn't pull new people in because it's so vague. It's all catering to pre established fans.

And really, why not just make a new damn game instead of remaking one that previously exists WHILE changing the content? And then only market it in a way that people who were already fans will have any idea what's going on? You can get past the nostalgiaphile backlash if you gain a new fan following along with it. They're hardly accomplishing this.

Remakes should focus on fixing what was wrong with the original game, and revamping it to better encapsulate what the original did. Updating the graphics. Smoother gameplay. Populating the world in a way that the original implied it was, but was unable to show because of limitations. That's progress, while still preserving what was. NNT seemed to be doing primarily this, up until the marketing started up. And now, they've done something that can change the initial impression of the story and world it's set in.

[Holy Sock]

I can. I just did.

Now I'll have two times the AO (kind of) to shove in peoples' faces, and force them to compare the two. bueheheh

Marketing wise no one I've shown NNT to is even remotely interested much less have any understanding of what to expect from the game. Meanwhile, showing them the marketing from AO pulls people in immediately, and they have a general idea of what to expect. These are all people with different tastes, and opinions in general.

AO came out over a decade ago and still does a better job pulling people in than NNT currently does.

This worries me.

I mean how are you judging this? Trailers? I cannot see old Abe trailers being that engaging (except for the unaired Guardian Angel one...)

But if it's gameplay that's not really a fair contest. Seeing the full game, in some form, is going to be far more engaging than your modern slick trailer.

I don't think sitting down someone to play 10 mins of NNT is going to result in a much more bored and less interested response than the original. In fact it may even be better.

[Slog Bait]

You'd be surprised? They draw people in pretty well despite their age and quality :/

Better, I doubt it.

First impressions are everything. A lot of people are still into the dark broodingness that AO started off with. The first thing anyone's going to see playing NNT, actually starting the game, will be RF. The gameplay looks smooth so far, and I'm hoping it comes out very nicely polished because if anything, I can still admire the gameplay even though it'll be drastically different.

So many people only play for story, though. And people want a large variety of things they can enjoy. If you throw new RF in peoples' faces, they won't have the same impression if you had thrown the original in their face. So far, I've shown a few people the new one first, then followed it up with the second. All of them said while the newer one looked nicer, the original had more of an impact on them.

The building still has an oppressive atmosphere, just in different ways.

[MeechMunchie]

It's probably worth pointing out that I don't really have any strong opinions on this subject. I'm just discussing stuff because hey, it might do people some good to analyse their negativity a bit.

[Slog Bait]

I'm just discussing too, it just turned out I had a lot to discuss. whoops

My opinions probably come off way stronger than intended. Most of them in my head are just like "man i sure am dissatisfied with this, if i ever do something similar im going about it in a way different way boy i sure do hope this doesnt screw jaw and owi over in the long run i really want sligstorm"

[Nepsotic]

I wouldn't necessarily say better, but they certainly tend to be more interesting. Also there's the point that, y'know, the original already exists. If you want that, great. Go play that.

Yes, the remake is different. There wouldn't be any point in it existing if it wasn't. I've yet to see any compelling argument that it's going to be definitively worse.

I KNEW someone would make this argument. Watch this. They're talking about Silent Hill but it can be applied to NnT.
(In case the embed bullshit doesn't work, skip to 1:08:21)

And don't forget the fact that JAW are only marketing towards pre-existing fans.

And in regards to the whole "Lorne's vision" thing, watch this. They're talking about Star Wars but it can be applied to NnT.
(And it case it doesn't work on this one skip to 1:04:00)


When they're talking about changing a character's dynamic, imagine they're talking about Rupture Farms, or just the tone of the whole game in general.

These are two really extreme examples but I think they get across what I'm trying to say clearly. Also, I'm in no way against this remake, most of it's looking really solid, but I'm talking about these unnecessary changes which may seem small but have a huge impact.

[OWI_Alex]

I know I'm taking the side of Progress vs. Preservation here, but I don't think it's reasonable to fault a remake for being reminiscent of the original. I mean, yeah, it's going to share mechanics. I thought that's what the nostaligia kids wanted.

And that's the problem with making a game to please nostalgiphiles - they'll always like the old version more than anything you make. So why not go nuts and change everything? If a game can't trade solely on its lineage, it needs to stand on its own feet; to a degree at least.

As for newcomers, I think it's probably fair to say that kids don't find the same things cool as they did in the '90s. The story is fundamentally identical, so doesn't "impact" just come down to delivering it in a style that the modern youth can appreciate? I like the gloomy '90s Oddworld, too. But kids these days, that's anyone's guess.

It's perhaps worth mentioning that we're yet to show any great length of gameplay - that'll come next week. I think, from a nostalgic point of view, New 'n' Tasty changes a few visual aspects like the first shot of the exterior of the RuptureFarms building but I think when you see the game's full intro you'll realise that the atmosphere is still very much there.

There's a balancing act between catering for existing fans like you guys, and tweaking just enough to keep things fresh for today's audience. That's why we've built in difficulty levels (with 'Hard' what I'd suggest you guys start on) and why we've carried over a few things from Exoddus like "All o' ya" and the ability to quicksave.

I don't think any of us ever assumed that our hardcore fans would jump up and down at everything in New 'n' Tasty, but trust me when I say that the guys are being as faithful as possible to Oddysee without trying to echo it exactly. New 'n' Tasty is a ground-up rebuild of Oddysee, so we've taken the opportunity to smooth over some rough edges (Zulag 1 is a little easier, for example) and add it some cool stuff too.

I think we're just really appreciative of all the comments and feedback - we'd be gutted if nobody said anything.

Like I said earlier in the week, New 'n' Tasty's up and running on PS4 at E3, and hopefully that means that there'll be lots of impressions spewing forth from the show floor. It's no surprise that loads of people coming to see it are big Oddworld fans, so we're hopeful we're on track with the game.

Oddysee is most people's favourite Oddworld game, the amount of care we're putting into ensuring that people can connect with it once they get started will hopefully be obvious when you play. But we've got to assume that not everyone will have played the original - so there's always going to be some changes here and there.

Completely changing it after it's been out there for well over a decade is like punching everyone who ever fell in love with the original team's work and how it was portrayed right in the genitals and twisting your fist a little to add additional injury.

I can't tell you how much that wasn't our intention, at all. There are aesthetic tweaks in New 'n' Tasty - and the exterior shot of RF is one of them - but we're hopeful that they're all for the better. Upsetting core fans was never a consideration as I'm sure you're aware.

And really, why not just make a new damn game instead of remaking one that previously exists WHILE changing the content? And then only market it in a way that people who were already fans will have any idea what's going on? You can get past the nostalgiaphile backlash if you gain a new fan following along with it. They're hardly accomplishing this.

Remakes should focus on fixing what was wrong with the original game, and revamping it to better encapsulate what the original did. Updating the graphics. Smoother gameplay. Populating the world in a way that the original implied it was, but was unable to show because of limitations. That's progress, while still preserving what was. NNT seemed to be doing primarily this, up until the marketing started up. And now, they've done something that can change the initial impression of the story and world it's set in.

We're remaking Oddysee because that's what our poll suggested the fans wanted. With the ready made art direction, story, level design and mechanics we could produce New 'n' Tasty without nearly as much story writing and pre-production. We've spent the last six months trying to ensure that existing fans like what we're doing (which we think we've achieved, barring a few bits and bats) and now, with the trailer onwards, we want to show those who aren't necessarily big Oddworld fans (or those that have heard about the game, or only played the demo etc) that we're back.

I don't disagree with your reasoning for what a remake should be - and that's largely what we've done - but as Lorne has said, this isn't a quick re-skin or a HDfied version (we left that behind two years ago). We've build everything from scratch to make the game the best it can be, rather than trying to bend decades old code and rules to something that'll sit well on PlayStation 4.

If your main concern is the shot of RuptureFarms then rest assured that I think you'll be happy with the rest of the intro. There are tweaks, as I've said, but there are new elements (like the Scrab and Paramite ghosts in the Abe Moon cutscene) as there has to be, really.

And besides, we're still not finished. Nearly, but not quite. The guys are still refining the game, and that's why feedback (hello, Abe Mine Arm meme) is crucially important.

[Nepsotic]

It's not completely changing it, it IS a small change but it can have such a large effect. That being said, I haven't seen the rest of the into yet.

[OWI_Alex]

It's not completely changing it, it IS a small change but it can have such a large effect. That being said, I haven't seen the rest of the into yet.

Quite. Seeing it with the music and Abe's voice over is entirely different than seeing it alongside the music from the trailer and no voice over.

[Slog Bait]

I know that wasn't your guys' intention, I think it's kind of obvious that I'm really concerned this might not be a successful endeavor in the end, mainly because of the way it's being marketed. I still have hope that it'll all turn out fine, but I'm still surprised something as massive as RF's exterior design was changed so much from the original design.

I'm just hoping I end up wrong about everything and NNT is a roaring success and doesn't lose what made AO so fantastic. The first impression is already going to be different based on the change, so I guess we'll all see how it goes.

[OWI_Alex]

I know that wasn't your guys' intention, I think it's kind of obvious that I'm really concerned this might not be a successful endeavor in the end, mainly because of the way it's being marketed. I still have hope that it'll all turn out fine, but I'm still surprised something as massive as RF's exterior design was changed so much from the original design.

Totally. I get that.

I'm just hoping I end up wrong about everything and NNT is a roaring success and doesn't lose what made AO so fantastic. The first impression is already going to be different based on the change, so I guess we'll all see how it goes.

For sure. I think you'll (as a hardcore fan) see things that'll surprise you a little, but hopefully for both good and bad. As long as you appreciate that we're wanting newcomers to play the game, too - like the health system with the birds, for example.

Like I said, hard mode will give you guys the best experience, I'd say. Deadly sligs are the best sligs.

Without wanting to sound pedantic though, AO will always be AO. We couldn't replicate AO 100% completely in NnT, because then it wouldn't be a new game.

[Nepsotic]

Of course not, and most changes you've made have been for the better (like the ability to have multiple Mudokons follow you, that always seemed like a cheap way to increase playing time), but some of them seem unnecessary, like the exterior of RF.

[OWI_Alex]

Of course not, and most changes you've made have been for the better (like the ability to have multiple Mudokons follow you, that always seemed like a cheap way to increase playing time), but some of them seem unnecessary, like the exterior of RF.

Understood, and again, hopefully you'll dig the rest of the intro.

And with that, I need to go pack for a day long trip to E3.

[Slog Bait]

Without wanting to sound pedantic though, AO will always be AO. We couldn't replicate AO 100% completely in NnT, because then it wouldn't be a new game.

Nah, it's cool. I don't think any of us wanted much less expected an exact replica of AO anyways. However, we were told it was a remake of AO, and because of this there's the expectation it will capture the most vital bits of AO.

As long as you guys were able to nail them, there shouldn't be any problem in that aspect.

And with that, I need to go pack for a day long trip to E3.

o ok bye HAVE FUN

[OWI_Alex]

Nah, it's cool. I don't think any of us wanted much less expected an exact replica of AO anyways. However, we were told it was a remake of AO, and because of this there's the expectation it will capture the most vital bits of AO.

As long as you guys were able to nail them, there shouldn't be any problem in that aspect.

I think it's fair to say the scope has changed massively since "AbeHD" was announced. When I first heard about it I had a very different mental image on how it would look and play than the one that's there now.

o ok bye HAVE FUN

Thanks, fingers crossed. <3

[V_O_T]

Nothing is perfect because the world isn't perfect and it will never be perfect, and that's perfect

And NnT is pretty damn close to it. I'm just grateful for the communication with the fans. As in, this type of close communication. No other dev I know let's their fans rick roll their bosses lol.

Honestly, what ever sound decisions you guys make are for reasons that we know have been dicussed internally and agreed upon. You guys have added great attention to detail and quality from your website to you game and beyond so the decisions made are for a logical and decent purpose. I mean, it's your own damn money you put into it. You could have spent it on a zeppelin or lots of narcotics to party for days, but you did it for the video games

We will nit pick for you, but we're gonna need more gifs to help out JAW :P hehe

All the best guys, cya @ E3 in 4 or so days

[Nepsotic]

We will nit pick for you, but we're gonna need more gifs to help out JAW :P hehe

When have you ever nitpicked? When have you ever said something that isn't "ZOMG SO AWESOME I LOVE YOU JAW HAVE MY BABIES"?

[Varrok]

I DUNNO MAN I'd think "oh no it looks like it's going to end up feeling like just another over the top sci fi action/adventure story" is a 100% compelling argument.

I think you're being unfair by saying that based on one RF exterior scene. You also have the rest of the trailer, and it doesn't really scream "OVER THE TOP SCI-FI" like you say it does. Also, what is "over the top sci fi action"? The game is about aliens with biomechanical legs, the orbs that shoot you if you take a chanting pose, freaking teleportation, computers... they didn't just add them in the remake, you know.

After the first couple of trailers, I think I seemed resistant to many changes from the original. I'm not against changes, but only if the changes make logic sense. From a technological point of view, the more lighty/flashy RF exterior makes a bit more sense. It's just not what we used to see. "It's just not what we used to see" is not a valid argument against, though.

Oddworld isn't a kids game, and never was.

I picked up AO as a 6 year old child, and I loved it. I don't think you first played it when you were very old.

Besides, Oddworld itself is not a game.

There's a balancing act between catering for existing fans like you guys, and tweaking just enough to keep things fresh for today's audience. That's why we've built in difficulty levels (with 'Hard' what I'd suggest you guys start on) and why we've carried over a few things from Exoddus like "All o' ya" and the ability to quicksave.

I'm so glad there are difficulty levels. Are you allowed to say anything more about them?. If not, please just say if it's a challenge for someone, who beat AO/AE a couple of times.

[Nepsotic]

I think you're being unfair by saying that based on one RF exterior scene. You also have the rest of the trailer, and it doesn't really scream "OVER THE TOP SCI-FI" like you say it does. Also, what is "over the top sci fi action"? The game is about aliens with biomechanical legs, the orbs that shoot you if you take a chanting pose, freaking teleportation, computers... they didn't just add them in the remake, you know.

I know you're polish, but have you ever heard of sarcasm? Plus, just because it has sci-fi elements doesn't mean it's portrayed in that way.

After the first couple of trailers, I think I seemed resistant to many changes from the original. I'm not against changes, but only if the changes make logic sense. From a technological point of view, the more lighty/flashy RF exterior makes a bit more sense. It's just not what we used to see. "It's just not what we used to see" is not a valid argument against, though.

We haven't used that argument, you just said we did. We've made perfectly valid arguments that you've just chosen to ignore as to not upset your precious JAW.

I picked up AO as a 6 year old child, and I loved it. I don't think you first played it when you were very old.

Good for you, I watched the Texas Chainsaw Massacre when I was 8. Is that a kid's film?

Besides, Oddworld itself is not a game.

Don't be a pedantic arsehole.

[Varrok]

I know you're polish, but have you ever heard of sarcasm?

No.

Also, thanks for not treating our proud nation with respect.

Plus, just because it has sci-fi elements doesn't mean it's portrayed in that way.

I'm pretty sure it does mean that.

We haven't used that argument, you just said we did. We've made perfectly valid arguments that you've just chosen to ignore as to not upset your precious JAW.

Remakes should focus on fixing what was wrong with the original game, and revamping it to better encapsulate what the original did. Updating the graphics. Smoother gameplay. Populating the world in a way that the original implied it was, but was unable to show because of limitations. That's progress, while still preserving what was. NNT seemed to be doing primarily this, up until the marketing started up. And now, they've done something that can change the initial impression of the story and world it's set in.

That's + complaining about that RP shot sounds basically a big "NO" to most creative changes.

Good for you, I watched the Texas Chainsaw Massacre when I was 8. Is that a kid's film?

Because AO was like this movie. Ok.

Don't be a pedantic arsehole.

Don't be Nepsotic.

[V_O_T]

When have you ever nitpicked? When have you ever said something that isn't "ZOMG SO AWESOME I LOVE YOU JAW HAVE MY BABIES"?

lol back when pre-alpha footage was shown and I had some mind set where I thought the fluffy portals were the final design. I did some bitching with the logo and with the old comical over done animations for abe. If that wasnt nitpicking then it was somewhere between the "HAVE MY BABIES" part and the "YOU JAW" part.


also, it was an attempt to get more gifs out of them :P

[Slog Bait]

I think you're being unfair by saying that based on one RF exterior scene. You also have the rest of the trailer, and it doesn't really scream "OVER THE TOP SCI-FI" like you say it does. Also, what is "over the top sci fi action"? The game is about aliens with biomechanical legs, the orbs that shoot you if you take a chanting pose, freaking teleportation, computers... they didn't just add them in the remake, you know.

I WAS JOKING

THAT WAS A JOKE

I picked up AO as a 6 year old child, and I loved it. I don't think you first played it when you were very old.

Besides, Oddworld itself is not a game.

Because AO was like this movie. Ok.

It's a completely accurate comparison because Oddworld was NOT made with children in mind as a target audience. That's what the whole "Oddworld is not a kid's game" shit came from. Can a kid watch/play it? Of course. Was it made/intended for them? No it fucking wasn't don't give me that shit

I'm pretty sure it does mean that.

Story with sci fi elements =/= sci fi main focus of story

That's + complaining about that RP shot sounds basically a big "NO" to most creative changes.

You haven't read a god damn thing I've said, and if you did you didn't take in what I was trying to say at all.

[Nepsotic]

I don't think Varrok knows how analogies work.

[Connell]

And besides, we're still not finished. Nearly, but not quite. The guys are still refining the game, and that's why feedback (hello, Abe Mine Arm meme) is crucially important.

That's mental that it took someone on a forum to point it out.

[Crashpunk]

The OWF has the best source of criticisms from hardcore Oddworld fans. Yet I really do wonder what JAW thinks of this place. (Obviously we're not that bad, seeing how most of JAW are actually on it.)

I seriously can't wait to see you guys when you actually play the game.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing more at E3!

[Holy Sock]

Hey, man, they're just trying to make us feel important....

I can. I just did.

Now I'll have two times the AO (kind of) to shove in peoples' faces, and force them to compare the two. bueheheh

Marketing wise no one I've shown NNT to is even remotely interested much less have any understanding of what to expect from the game. Meanwhile, showing them the marketing from AO pulls people in immediately, and they have a general idea of what to expect. These are all people with different tastes, and opinions in general.

AO came out over a decade ago and still does a better job pulling people in than NNT currently does.

This worries me.

But I mean have you shown your friends Abe Oddysee's old trailers and compared them with NNT's new ones? Like did they poo-poo any new footage then immediately jump on board the old stuff? I mean, if you judge by the myriad of comments on gamer news sites, Youtube, and places like reddit NNT's trailers seem to be drawing a very positive response from both old and new gamers.

I mean, from the people I know, anyone that's shown a lack of interest in NNT wasn't grabbed by the original. Yet those who were seem pretty keen on both.

[Scrabaniac]

Talking of pointing things out.. Remember when someone pointed out the glitchy packages in the opening scene of the e3 trailer?.. How come nobody picked it up in the Trailers before that? :P