anyone else bored and disheartened and sick of applying for jobs that never get back?

[Wings of Fire]

Sure.... but if you've gone two years without being able to find any work at all then it seems like there is a problem somewhere that the government can't fix for you, and maybe the best way to get you to fix it for yourself, is to force you to work for the money that they are giving you. You aren't required to do the work. You're just required to do it if you want some money.

'Starve to death' is not a choice. If you have to work for free to survive (I should clarify; this is not how you earn your Jobseekers Allowance. You earn that by searching for work to satisfactory levels every day and showing proof that the jobcenter can challenge) that's not a choice.

I'm prepared to admit calling it slave labour is openly provocative hyperbole, but that's only because we have such a huge preconceived notion of what being a slave is like. It's an open challenge to be refuted by people in power who really can't make the same kind of argument you're going for.

[OANST]

I would say that the other side of it, the people paying the taxes that provide "jobseekers" with the money that they live off of, is closer to slave labor. They basically work a certain amount of days every week as your personal slave with absolutely no benefit to them for having done so. Can you not see how they would be fed up with that, and want to find a way to force you to do something that you find unpleasant for you to continue getting their money? This isn't magic money. It comes from people. This is other people's money.

Edit: I don't want to give the impression that I think jobless benefits are a bad thing. They can be very necessary. However, after a certain amount of time, you just have to throw your hands up and say "This person isn't trying hard enough," and do something about it. Two years is an extraordinary amount of time to be looking for work. In my mind, it is an unreasonable amount of time. I would lower it. By a lot. Basically, I could see one year being fair in some situations, but six months is probably closer to what it should be. Especially if you have ever spent a dime of this money on entertainment, and not on necessities, or on purchases that may help you find employment. Like a car, or more professional looking clothing.

[gishygleb]

Waiting in apathy for someone to solve your problem is extremely futile. You have to be a bitch and go forward, as we are our own saviors.

[OANST]

That's probably the smartest thing I've seen him say.

Edit: Let me put it this way: When Stephanie and I moved back in October, we discovered that our neighbors did not have jobs. They started coming over while I was at work, and asking for things. It started small. A ride to the store. A cigarette. Things like that. But it kept growing. Now when given a ride to the store, they wanted us to buy them a little bit of food. Then we would have to wait for them to go shopping. One day, I came home from work, and got in the shower. When I went to wash my hair, I found that the shampoo was missing. I called out to Steph, and when she came in, I asked where the shampoo was. She just kind of made a face. I said "Rose wanted it, didn't she." That got a nod. The day before this, they had gotten us to drive them up to the store to buy beer. I walked over to their house as soon as I was dressed, and sat down with both of them. I told them to never, ever ask myself or Stephanie for anything ever again. I explained to them that they can keep the fucking shampoo, but that's it. You don't get to force me to use a bar of soap on my hair because you think being drunk is more important than being clean. This is how I feel about anyone who is on "the dole" using that money for anything besides surviving, or getting a job. You are stealing from me, and I would like it to fucking stop. I don't spend all day jerking off to the internet, or drinking myself into oblivion, doing the absolute minimum to scrape by. I work. That's my money that you're using to watch television with. That's my money that bought you that dvd. That's my money that you used for that book, or that internet connection, or that burger that you got from McDonalds. You are stealing from me, and every other person in your country, and someone should beat the dog shit out of you for it. That's my take on the situation.

[Wings of Fire]

I would say that the other side of it, the people paying the taxes that provide "jobseekers" with the money that they live off of, is closer to slave labor. They basically work a certain amount of days every week as your personal slave with absolutely no benefit to them for having done so. Can you not see how they would be fed up with that, and want to find a way to force you to do something that you find unpleasant for you to continue getting their money? This isn't magic money. It comes from people. This is other people's money.

Edit: I don't want to give the impression that I think jobless benefits are a bad thing. They can be very necessary. However, after a certain amount of time, you just have to throw your hands up and say "This person isn't trying hard enough," and do something about it. Two years is an extraordinary amount of time to be looking for work. In my mind, it is an unreasonable amount of time. I would lower it. By a lot. Basically, I could see one year being fair in some situations, but six months is probably closer to what it should be. Especially if you have ever spent a dime of this money on entertainment, and not on necessities, or on purchases that may help you find employment. Like a car, or more professional looking clothing.

We have social security here in the UK. It means you pay tax for shit on the promise you'll get your moneys' worth if you are ever in a bad situation. It's fair. Most people are out of work for a period of time in their lives, and they get to take out of the system they've been paying into. It's simple insurance.

This scheme doesn't help the taxpayer one bit. It's punitive. The flow of money is towards company managers and board members who buy free labour on the cheap off the government. My ex-stepdad who works as a hospital janitor doesn't get a penny relieved from his tax for any labour done on ths scheme. Neither does any other labourer. The only thing they'd get is ignorant and classist satisfaction that people on the dole are finally 'earning their keep'. I repeat, if this was social work then my problems would be petty bitching. It's not. I'm giving nothing back to the community. I'm only damaging the economy further by taking away paid jobs. It's senseless.

I've been looking for a job for two years. On a really good week, I get an interview because I was in the top ten of 150 applicants for said job. Am I not trying hard enough? Is it my fault the economy is so bad that competition for a minimum wage 'entry level' job becomes 'Who has the most experience?'.

Edit: As for your nice little anecdotal outrage there:

As for your argument about people 'perfectly able to work who'd be happy to stay on benefits forever;' the best (If unrealistic) thing to do would be to raise the minimum financial standards of employment (Rather than lowering benefits) to encourage people to look. Like I said previously, I'd bet my next three months of JSA that nearly every single position posted gets filled. Unless millions of people suddenly become entrepreneurs overnight (Which is just economically unsupportable), there will always be the same amount of people out of work. Any attempt to punish those who don't try will just end up hitting those who do as collateral damage unless there suddenly becomes 43M (And a bit) jobs in the UK. Also every two or three positions in workfare for a company is a lost employed position, harming what the government is trying to accomplish.

Basically we should create an economic climate where being in minimum wage employment is so much more financially rewarding that nobody will want to stay on benefits. What's happening here is artificial and superficial.

Also people on workfare don't count as unemployed by the government's definition, so they can fiddle the records to make it look like they've achieved record employment.

[OANST]

I do agree that the system is flawed, but that doesn't make it inherently wrong. And social security is not the same thing as this. You will use all that money in your elderly years as long as you live long enough to see them. You will use that money and more. This money is money paid to you by working people so that you can survive, and find employment. Anything beyond that is entitlement theft, in my opinion.

And yes, I don't think you've tried hard enough. I'm sorry. But I truly believe that if you put the energy into getting a job that you put into your entertainment pursuits that you would have one, and this conversation wouldn't be happening.

Edit: So forcing employers to pay wages that will put them out of business to people who have no discernible skills for jobs that take no discernible skills to perform is the answer? That seems unlikely. If the reason you aren't getting a job is because you don't think jobs pay well then you truly are scum, and the fact that you're still alive is proof that the system is broken.

I like how you present the idea of "anecdotal" as meaning that it doesn't apply. It does apply. These people exist. By the hundreds of thousands. And yes, I was outraged that I had to go without for someone who doesn't lift a finger to help themself.

[Slog Bait]

I've been trying for around 2 years now too

It's mentally exhausting I'm at a complete loss right now and it's hard to want to keep applying when I know I'm just going to get rejected for inexperience or never called back

I have to keep reminding myself I'm not the only one having difficulties or I start obsessing over it because I don't know what I'm doing wrong

E- No input on the whole UK "slavery" thing because even after reading all this I'm still not sure what's going on, so I'll just research it on my own time

[OANST]

Holy shit. I just looked at the U.K's unemployment numbers. It's 6.9%. The unemployment rate in Michigan is over 7%, but even higher where I live. When looking for a second job, I had three offers within a week. I had these offers because of my work ethic. When I take a shitty job, I excel at it. I show up early. I stay late. I work harder and longer than other people in the same position, because I want that all important good reference. If a job is hard, I work harder until I get good at it.

Joe, you had a job. You left that job because you thought it was too hard.

[Slog Bait]

And one of my old classmates from Vegas moved down to where I live a few months back and got a job instantly??? But I get turned down every single time or get no response and I've lost count of the times I've applied to places.

I just resorted to pushing my "art" out there because I'm desperate, and it's starting to show results, but it's in no way something I can live off of on my own right now.

[OANST]

It's not always easy, and some people genuinely do have a tough time finding work. Some people don't interview well. There are programs that you can look at that help with this, but the bottom line is this.... It is always easier to get a job when you already have one. Get creative. Take the shittiest job you can find. Leave no stone unturned.

[Wings of Fire]

Joe, you had a job. You left that job because you thought it was too hard.

Are you a parallel universe Mat then? It'd go a long way to explain your scary newfound right wing streak. I've only ever had one job in my life. A Christmas Temp job at Gamestation. I did it for two Christmases, then moved to university.

And yes, I don't think you've tried hard enough. I'm sorry. But I truly believe that if you put the energy into getting a job that you put into your entertainment pursuits that you would have one, and this conversation wouldn't be happening.

Even if this was true and I landed a job, I would still be having this conversation with you. I'm not mad out of fear, I'm mad out of disgust.

If the reason you aren't getting a job is because you don't think jobs pay well then you truly are scum, and the fact that you're still alive is proof that the system is broken.

Holy shit, can you read? There's nothing anyone looking for a job can do about the amount of people out of work. There's only so many jobs and all these places get filled. People who don't 'try' are just so desensitized and apathetic to the system that's shit on them their entire lives that they've given up. I've been on training schemes. I've seen the average jobless. They are frustrated and angry and lost and barely surviving. It's a system where the worst performers will always without exception fail. There are less jobs than there are people.

This money is money paid to you by working people so that you can survive, and find employment. Anything beyond that is entitlement theft, in my opinion.

Soooooooo unemployed people should sit in a bare house staring vacantly at the wall and eating soup until they're magiced into a job? Having the internet is the bare minimum requirement for landing employment nowadays. Access to culture and entertainment keeps poor frustrated people off the street (And out of your cards, handbags, prisons [They cost a lot of money!] etc). Books help people better themselves. You'd trample on people without the power to stand up for themselves and call it social justice.

So forcing employers to pay wages to employees if they can afford to hire more employees is the answer?

Yep! Employers should only have as many employees as they can afford. Anything else is entitlement theft, in my opinion.

I like how you present the idea of "anecdotal" as meaning that it doesn't apply. It does apply.

Because a Democrat is only a Republican who hasn't yet been mugged, right? I don't give a shit about your outrage or sense of justice because something bad happened to you, hence how I tried to keep my own status out of the equation. If your opinion was formed because something bad happened to you, it's not an opinion worth having. Same goes the other way.

These people exist. By the hundreds of thousands.

As an aside, I'm curious how someone who lives within driving distance of Detroit can believe poverty and unemployability is the fault of the person, rather than the fuckups of those in power.

When looking for a second job, I had three offers within a week. I had these offers because of my work ethic.

No, you had them because of your experience. Tell you what, I'll write some self congratulatory diatribe about my work ethic on my cv and see if I get any more interviews than usual next week?

Take the shittiest job you can find.

I apply for cleaning jobs, catering jobs, litter picking jobs etc. Any job I can find. They don't want a degree student, they want someone with experience.

Holy shit. I just looked at the U.K's unemployment numbers. It's 6.9%. The unemployment rate in Michigan is over 7%, but even higher where I live.

I live in a ghost town in the worst region of the UK. I can't afford to move because I'm poor.

Honest to God Mat. Over a hundred applicants for every job I've gotten an interview for. If they interview ten people, is it the fault of the other ninety for not being suited enough for the job? Is it my fault for not interviewing as well as the one son of a bitch with the 'gift of the gab' who befriended the employer in five seconds flat?

[gishygleb]

I would like to repeat myself. You have to learn to be a bitch. You have to be beyond the level of a mundane human mentality. There are also free-lance types of jobs to try, self-employment, et cetera.

If you could program, you would sell your games, if you could draw art marvellously, you would sell it on the auctions, if you could speak fluently foreign languages, you could tute children and be a free-lance translator, there are millions of choices.

If the occasion is a definitely inevitable poverty, then you have to be quick to learn something new and actual in order to find a way to earn money.

Stop making the seeking for a job your main aim. Earning money is versatile, it is always possible to find a niché, if you are intuitive enough.

And yes, I am a bootstrapping faggot. As I am a gifted bitch.

Wings of Fire, I am not into controversy, hypocrisy, rage. Please, do not lower my rep just for seeing me as a naive child.

[OANST]

Are you a parallel universe Mat then? It'd go a long way to explain your scary newfound right wing streak. I've only ever had one job in my life. A Christmas Temp job at Gamestation. I did it for two Christmases, then moved to university.



Even if this was true and I landed a job, I would still be having this conversation with you. I'm not mad out of fear, I'm mad out of disgust.



Holy shit, can you read? There's nothing anyone looking for a job can do about the amount of people out of work. There's only so many jobs and all these places get filled. People who don't 'try' are just so desensitized and apathetic to the system that's shit on them their entire lives that they've given up. I've been on training schemes. I've seen the average jobless. They are frustrated and angry and lost and barely surviving. It's a system where the worst performers will always without exception fail. There are less jobs than there are people.



Soooooooo unemployed people should sit in a bare house staring vacantly at the wall and eating soup until they're magiced into a job? Having the internet is the bare minimum requirement for landing employment nowadays. Access to culture and entertainment keeps poor frustrated people off the street (And out of your cards, handbags, prisons [They cost a lot of money!] etc). Books help people better themselves. You'd trample on people without the power to stand up for themselves and call it social justice.




Yep! Employers should only have as many employees as they can afford. Anything else is entitlement theft, in my opinion.



Because a Democrat is only a Republican who hasn't yet been mugged, right? I don't give a shit about your outrage or sense of justice because something bad happened to you, hence how I tried to keep my own status out of the equation. If your opinion was formed because something bad happened to you, it's not an opinion worth having. Same goes the other way.



As an aside, I'm curious how someone who lives within driving distance of Detroit can believe poverty and unemployability is the fault of the person, rather than the fuckups of those in power.



No, you had them because of your experience. Tell you what, I'll write some self congratulatory diatribe about my work ethic on my cv and see if I get any more interviews than usual next week?



I apply for cleaning jobs, catering jobs, litter picking jobs etc. Any job I can find. They don't want a degree student, they want someone with experience.



I live in a ghost town in the worst region of the UK. I can't afford to move because I'm poor.

Honest to God Mat. Over a hundred applicants for every job I've gotten an interview for. If they interview ten people, is it the fault of the other ninety for not being suited enough for the job? Is it my fault for not interviewing as well as the one son of a bitch with the 'gift of the gab' who befriended the employer in five seconds flat?

I distinctly remember you having a stock job that you quit because of the work being too difficult for your disability. If I'm remembering that incorrectly then I apologize.

I have never been a Democrat. I have never been a Republican. And I have always believed that using entitlements should be a last resort, used for a small period of time.

If the situation truly is that bad, then you do need to move. You need to not spend a single penny that isn't necessary, and move.

How did I get the experience? I got it by busting my ass, and getting jobs. You can call it congratulatory if you want, and maybe it is, but it's also true. I was working from 2:30 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. to make ends meet before Stephanie got a job, so I do find it difficult to retain sympathy for people who live off of my tax dollars for long periods of time. I don't believe they approach the situation with the same effort that I do. I've seen hard times. I know what hard times look like. I don't begrudge anyone getting the help that they need, but I also understand that after a certain point, the help has to stop, and that person needs a bit of a harder shove in the right direction.

[Bullet Magnet]

I don't think being made to work without pay is a shove in the right direction. That's more like deliberately skipping to the end game of the Walmart Effect. Those jobs could be filled by paid employees, instead they get worked by people who still somehow count as unemployed.

As for getting a job, I've had a few, and have one now, and not a single lasting position has been acquired without knowing someone on the inside to put in a good word. Every job I've ever found by myself has ended immediately after the probationary period for a bullshit reason like "did not speak to every customer with a sufficiently sycophantic manner". I know I've been extremely lucky to get the jobs I have had, because I don't have very many connections at all. And even working a probationary period is more than most, including Joe, ever get, and I don't think I put more work into jobseeking to do it.

[Manco]

I distinctly remember you having a stock job that you quit because of the work being too difficult for your disability. If I'm remembering that incorrectly then I apologize.

Yeah I think I remember him mentioning that. It was an unpaid voluntary position, which he took to keep himself busy while looking for a job, as I recall.

[OANST]

Yeah I think I remember him mentioning that. It was an unpaid voluntary position, which he took to keep himself busy while looking for a job, as I recall.

In that case, I was wrong. I assumed it was a paying job.

BM, we've already established that this is not work without pay. As for putting more effort in, I'm sure you're right. You probably didn't.

[Wings of Fire]

I distinctly remember you having a stock job that you quit because of the work being too difficult for your disability. If I'm remembering that incorrectly then I apologize.

I was volunteering for a charity that I had to pack in due to heath reasons because it contained a lot of heavy lifting. I now volunteer as an administrator for a charity for the blind. I'm proud to be doing something to help a cause I believe in, and it's relevant to my realistic job target. If I'm still unemployed when I leave the work programme in a year, then I'll be forced to quit it to work in an unpaid role that's irrelevant to me where I can get no experience towards any job suitable for me.

If the situation truly is that bad, then you do need to move. You need to not spend a single penny that isn't necessary, and move.

Kind of irrelevant, but I can't move. This household has to either have one person in paid employment or neither me nor my brother living to make the figures balance and not plunge my mother into poverty. I eat like a bird (Food that I buy myself) and the only electric I use is for my laptop. If I left, then my mother would get £20 less a week rent and would get 14% less housing benefit because of the bedroom tax. The only way to keep my mother out of poverty is if either both myself and my brother lived and worked here, or we both moved and she applied for single bedroom social housing. This is even assuming I could afford to take such a huge risk.

How did I get the experience? I got it by busting my ass, and getting jobs. You can call it congratulatory if you want, and maybe it is, but it's also true.

My point is that your job got you your reputation and work ethic, not the other way round. At least to begin with.

but I also understand that after a certain point, the help has to stop, and that person needs a bit of a harder shove in the right direction.

I'll say this again and again. There are more people than there are jobs. If the percentage of unemployed people is rounded up to 7%, then there's 1.075 people going for every 1 job. The logical conclusion to your argument is 7/100 people should suffer no life before being made homeless because they couldn't shove the next person off the rung ahead of them. Unless the unemployment figure drops, these 7 people will always exist. If they get jobs, seven more jobless will take their place. You're advocating culling the population because the economy isn't good enough. Slapping them into forced labour isn't going to help that shit

[OANST]

All of those people are not applying for the jobs. It would be foolish to think that they are. You can keep saying that the jobs aren't there all day long. It's either true, or it isn't. If it's true then you have to move. If it isn't then you have to try harder.

If your household is suffering this much, then your household needs to find a place where you have a chance to succeed. If packing up everyone is the answer then that's what needs to happen. People do it all the time.

It was my work ethic, and my refusal to go without work that got me jobs when I had no experience.

[Wings of Fire]

All of those people are not applying for the jobs. It would be foolish to think that they are.

I'll give you ten percent of those, but even if I met you at half, there'd still be too many people for jobs. If only one person is shitting their pants looking for that job that doesn't exist while the other six laze about, is it far to punish him as well? Is 1/7 reasonable collateral?

We have a system in place to make sure people are sincerely looking for work. There certainly are ways to exploit it, but it's a huge stretch to assume there are as many jobs as people who want them.

You understand the maximum JSA is £70 a week, right? That's one hundred and seventeen dollars a week to live on. I'm classed as a young adult until I'm 25, so I get £50 a week. The minimum wage for a full time job is £252 a week. Do you still think living on benefits is a comfortable lifestyle?

[MA]

I remember school training me for a future in a job market that ceased to exist the very moment I graduated.

Have you heard us called the "lost generation" yet?

yeah i think i've heard that, i'm not sure.

i remember my job-seeking training at school was "look for a job, find out what qualifications/experience is necessary, earn said qualifications/experience, get job". basically. the problem is there aren't enough jobs, and people aren't dying any quicker.

I would say that the other side of it, the people paying the taxes that provide "jobseekers" with the money that they live off of, is closer to slave labor. They basically work a certain amount of days every week as your personal slave with absolutely no benefit to them for having done so. Can you not see how they would be fed up with that, and want to find a way to force you to do something that you find unpleasant for you to continue getting their money? This isn't magic money. It comes from people. This is other people's money.

Edit: I don't want to give the impression that I think jobless benefits are a bad thing. They can be very necessary. However, after a certain amount of time, you just have to throw your hands up and say "This person isn't trying hard enough," and do something about it. Two years is an extraordinary amount of time to be looking for work. In my mind, it is an unreasonable amount of time. I would lower it. By a lot. Basically, I could see one year being fair in some situations, but six months is probably closer to what it should be. Especially if you have ever spent a dime of this money on entertainment, and not on necessities, or on purchases that may help you find employment. Like a car, or more professional looking clothing.

first off, no one can 'live off' jobseekers. mother of christ, you really don't realise how fucking stupid you sound. jobseekers is like, £30-£50 a week, but the amount you receive isn't fixed anyway. it's based on all sorts of other shit too, like your age, employment history, even qualifications if need be etc. so it can end up being less than 30, or more than 50, or whatever. you can't survive off that alone, believe me. convert it into dollars or something and realise how fucking obtuse your whole "they live off jobseekers taxpayers pay their monies let's sentence them to hard labour, with pay. that way it isn't wrong in the slightest. yessirreebob" argument really is.

my point being with all that, jobseekers is not something you can survive off. you need more income than that. there are other varied benefits and schemes to help people along. you don't know the half of it. you don't even know a quarter of it, man. it shows.

secondly, "this person isn't trying hard enough" doesn't apply to people who are genuinely trying to get a job (how the fuck could they be 'not trying hard enough' if they are genuinely trying? PUSH HARDERRRR) but just aren't being accepted by said jobs, when they actually find said jobs.

it's like fishing, you don't know what's underneath the water so you just try. sometimes you snag something, most of the time you ponder about suicide. when you do snag something, and it isn't an old boot, you have a new set of hurdles with the interviews and shit. it's like an endurance race where only the very elite and/or lucky get through to their dream job of working at fucking KFC. personally i've only ever had two interviews in my life, which were both with previous employers. they were both very informal, and it was basically "can you do the job? great! we'll find out." and i got the job. since then i haven't even been accepted for job interviews by anyone, and yet i'm still applying. i just can't get through the crowds. i even have a car. what the fuck is going on, OANST? why does your argument make no sense? where is my fucking job?

also fuck you with the whole "if you have no work you should not entertain yourself and pay only for necessities". okay, i'll cut myself off from the world but still somehow keep applying for jobs because that's good lol (wouldn't that be easier to do with internet connection? i'm just saying an ISP is not a necessity, therefore by your rule we shouldn't have it, and you are talking shit) and just go absolutely batshit fucking fruitloop crazy and massacre everyone in this entire fucking hostel. i mean that's why i'm living in a hostel in the first place, i have no job and no money. and fuck you again.

That's probably the smartest thing I've seen him say.

Edit: Let me put it this way: When Stephanie and I moved back in October, we discovered that our neighbors did not have jobs. They started coming over while I was at work, and asking for things. It started small. A ride to the store. A cigarette. Things like that. But it kept growing. Now when given a ride to the store, they wanted us to buy them a little bit of food. Then we would have to wait for them to go shopping. One day, I came home from work, and got in the shower. When I went to wash my hair, I found that the shampoo was missing. I called out to Steph, and when she came in, I asked where the shampoo was. She just kind of made a face. I said "Rose wanted it, didn't she." That got a nod. The day before this, they had gotten us to drive them up to the store to buy beer. I walked over to their house as soon as I was dressed, and sat down with both of them. I told them to never, ever ask myself or Stephanie for anything ever again. I explained to them that they can keep the fucking shampoo, but that's it. You don't get to force me to use a bar of soap on my hair because you think being drunk is more important than being clean. This is how I feel about anyone who is on "the dole" using that money for anything besides surviving, or getting a job. You are stealing from me, and I would like it to fucking stop. I don't spend all day jerking off to the internet, or drinking myself into oblivion, doing the absolute minimum to scrape by. I work. That's my money that you're using to watch television with. That's my money that bought you that dvd. That's my money that you used for that book, or that internet connection, or that burger that you got from McDonalds. You are stealing from me, and every other person in your country, and someone should beat the dog shit out of you for it. That's my take on the situation.

where's that tiny violin? and that tiny violinist?

basically let's alienate and pile the social, moral and just plain old-fashioned peer pressure on those wretched fucks who are all obviously drunk, wife-beating, drug-addled, thieving dirty little shitbags who can't be arsed to work. let's huddle round and kick them to death.

I do agree that the system is flawed, but that doesn't make it inherently wrong. And social security is not the same thing as this. You will use all that money in your elderly years as long as you live long enough to see them. You will use that money and more. This money is money paid to you by working people so that you can survive, and find employment. Anything beyond that is entitlement theft, in my opinion.

ololololololol YOU ARE TAKING TAXPAYERS MONEY

YOU MUST USE THAT MONEY WISELY, AS IT WAS TAXPAYERS, AND THEY WON'T BE HAPPY

IT HOLDS GREAT POWER, MY SON

how about: it's the fucking governments money? does that make a little more sense to you? tax goes on all sorts of shit, not just goddamn unemployment benefits. do you think they had friggin jobseekers in the 12th century? yet we still had taxes. like our national security/armed forces, for one. we, the people, happily fund them and a multitude of other governmental organisations via taxes because they protect us and our country, and allow us to live in relative peace. but tax pays many things. don't be silly. don't treat us like we're silly. everyone stop being silly.

money goes up, and we're just the drones at the very bottom, therefore every single penny we spend on whatever, it doesn't matter what, get's filtered back through the same system in the end. like fucking rain on the mountain, except uphill, back to the fat cats. how the fuck hasn't that business you have a hand in gone bust yet with you pulling random levers and pressing buttons? give me your job.

And yes, I don't think you've tried hard enough. I'm sorry. But I truly believe that if you put the energy into getting a job that you put into your entertainment pursuits that you would have one, and this conversation wouldn't be happening.

Edit: So forcing employers to pay wages that will put them out of business to people who have no discernible skills for jobs that take no discernible skills to perform is the answer? That seems unlikely. If the reason you aren't getting a job is because you don't think jobs pay well then you truly are scum, and the fact that you're still alive is proof that the system is broken.

I like how you present the idea of "anecdotal" as meaning that it doesn't apply. It does apply. These people exist. By the hundreds of thousands. And yes, I was outraged that I had to go without for someone who doesn't lift a finger to help themself.

aww. poor you.

also i like how you say "But I truly believe that if you put the energy into getting a job that you put into your entertainment pursuits that you would have one, and this conversation wouldn't be happening" as if the 'conversation' had to happen. as if you were the one who was meant to do it. as if anyone gives a fuck about your opinions when you're being so openly judgmental and actually pretty dense when you don't even fucking live here. but you carry on preaching, obviously you have a firm grasp on the situation and can dictate to others how it should be and how they should act and what they should do and scold them if they dare do otherwise. pretty good for someone living on another continent.

Holy shit. I just looked at the U.K's unemployment numbers. It's 6.9%. The unemployment rate in Michigan is over 7%, but even higher where I live. When looking for a second job, I had three offers within a week. I had these offers because of my work ethic. When I take a shitty job, I excel at it. I show up early. I stay late. I work harder and longer than other people in the same position, because I want that all important good reference. If a job is hard, I work harder until I get good at it.

Joe, you had a job. You left that job because you thought it was too hard.

i work harder. i push harder. i have back ache.

you preach like you're the only motherfucker ever to bend over backwards for their job. wake up, millions of other people have done the same and still do, and some to a greater extent.

and did you miss the part about statistics being adjusted to best suit whatever the adjustee wants to show? did you know 87238% of statistics slid out of your anus? out of 234 people asked.

you can make numbers show you anything statistically, that's the wonderful magic of mathematics.

It's not always easy, and some people genuinely do have a tough time finding work. Some people don't interview well. There are programs that you can look at that help with this, but the bottom line is this.... It is always easier to get a job when you already have one. Get creative. Take the shittiest job you can find. Leave no stone unturned.

do you think people haven't tried that, and aren't still trying that? you're like the guy who stops the world for an important announcement and says "we should water Africa, that way we can grow stuff" and entire nations just shake their heads while a few scientists go ahead and put a fucking bullet through their cranium because they just gave up on humanity.

you're that guy.

[OANST]

That's a lot to respond to. Let me give it a shot.

I assumed, and I think I assumed rightly, that jobseekers is only one of the benefits offered to the unemployed in your country. I do not have any knowledge of the actual amounts paid, but I expect that it amounts to a combination of what we call unemployment and welfare. And yes, those are very difficult to live off of. Shit, my wages are difficult to live off of.

I did say that there are people that are genuinely looking for work, and can't find it. They either don't interview well, or as Joe insists, the jobs just aren't out there. In those situations, your only option is to seek work where you can find it, and move. I've moved for a job before. It sucks, and it's hard. But it's an option if all else fails.

As for cutting yourself off from entertainment, my point there is that if you have money for entertainment, you have money to better your position if you save it. And that's what the money you're being given is for. To better your odds of getting a job. The more prep work you've done, the better your odds of getting a job more quickly, and being able to enjoy yourself again.

Taxes pay for a lot of things, but those taxes still come from people. It's money that they earned. For people who are being taxed out the ass for work that they do, it gets difficult to watch people receive that money for doing nothing. And just as there are people genuinely looking for work, there are people genuinely happy to not have to work, and live off what the government gives them plus whatever they can get from people they know.

Do you think that the same schemes to make numbers look better don't exist here? They do. My point is that you are looking at a very close percentage of unemployment, even with manipulation taken into account.

As for the rest of it, you're obviously pissed at me for having this perspective. I won't take it personally. Even if you want me to.

[MA]

thanx 4 the info, already done all that. still doing it, in fact. thanks mister job guru work god sir.

and you're still talking shit.

[Manco]

In those situations, your only option is to seek work where you can find it, and move. I've moved for a job before. It sucks, and it's hard. But it's an option if all else fails.

With what money? A huge swath of unemployed people nowadays are young people who don’t have savings. They can’t afford to live on their own, let alone move to another state or whatever.

As for cutting yourself off from entertainment, my point there is that if you have money for entertainment, you have money to better your position if you save it. And that's what the money you're being given is for. To better your odds of getting a job. The more prep work you've done, the better your odds of getting a job more quickly, and being able to enjoy yourself again.

Do you honestly begrudge people who receive less than minimum wage the occasional vice? Sure, logically they should be scrimping and scraping, counting every penny and saving as much as possible. But humans aren’t always logical, and life isn’t so simple. We all need some kind of respite to keep us sane, and you can’t expect people to just become emotionless robots if their income is below a certain threshold.

And just as there are people genuinely looking for work, there are people genuinely happy to not have to work, and live off what the government gives them plus whatever they can get from people they know.

Yes, and you’re focusing on the latter and demonizing both groups based on the latter’s reputation.

[OANST]

Shit is hard. I don't mean to take that away from anyone. And I'm not trying to diminish how difficult it is for those genuinely trying. But I've met a lot of people who milk the system. A lot. They exist. You should be as upset about that as I am, as they just make it so much more difficult for those genuinely seeking work to get by.

Yes, and you’re focusing on the latter and demonizing both groups based on the latter’s reputation.

That's not true. That's what the conversation became, so that's what we've been discussing. To say that is to see only what you want to see.

[Manco]

That's not true. That's what the conversation became, so that's what we've been discussing. To say that is to see only what you want to see.

No, since you first started posting in here you’ve been beating the drum of “if you don’t have a job you just aren’t trying”, which is exactly the same argument that is always used to justify dismantling any and all aid or sympathy given to the unemployed.

[OANST]

No. Since I first came in here I've said that if you haven't been able to find a job for two years then you aren't trying hard enough. Then I amended it to say that's true of most, but not of all.

[Manco]

It’s really more long the lines of

Since I first came in here I've said that if you haven't been able to find a job for two years then you aren't trying hard enough. Then I amended it to become less specific as the conversation went on the point of flat-out calling unemployment benefits theft

[OANST]

That's not true either. I did say that I consider using unemployment benefits for purposes that don't help you survive and better your chances of getting off of them as being tantamount to theft. I don't expect that to be a popular opinion.

[MA]

theft from who? the taxpayer? the money is filtered so many times who it actually came from becomes irrelevant. or theft from the government? fuck them, it's their job to do this. they should be in their element.

[Manco]

Right, and you also weasel out of recognizing that people aren’t always willing or able to spend their unemployment benefits in logical and/or maximally efficient ways. You keep saying things like

It's not always easy, and some people genuinely do have a tough time finding work. Some people don't interview well. There are programs that you can look at that help with this, but the bottom line is this.... It is always easier to get a job when you already have one. Get creative. Take the shittiest job you can find. Leave no stone unturned.

Shit is hard. I don't mean to take that away from anyone. And I'm not trying to diminish how difficult it is for those genuinely trying. But I've met a lot of people who milk the system. A lot. They exist. You should be as upset about that as I am, as they just make it so much more difficult for those genuinely seeking work to get by.

Do you not see how statements like these do an excellent job of handwaving the people who are genuinely trying or aren’t spending their money in maximally efficient and 100% logical ways? You spend a hell of a lot more time talking about the people “milking the system” and how it upsets you and how you think it’s not right; don’t you see how that equates to demonizing all unemployed people as a whole?