Oddworld Questions & Answers VI

[Slaveless]

Is the fact that Gabbiwogs need to take a dip into the Spawning Grounds to develop lungs simply Mudokon folklore? Because what it seems is that Gabbits haven't gone to Ma'Spa for centuries, perhaps mellinias.

[Fuzzle Guy]

Yeah but, why a Gabbits? Why not Vyker, Intern or Mudokon lungs or something?

[Zerox]

Gabbit's lungs just happen to be a perfect size for replacement. Other species, due to their position in heirarchy, are probably harder to obtain. Animals don't have much choice in the matter, and whether they die or not doesn't have the same level of importance (even a Mud still needs to work!)

[mudling]

Also, due to Gabbits being amphibian, they need large, and well conditioned lungs, in order to breathe in as much air as they need to.
They are probably the best quality of lungs you can get.

[Slaveless]

Yeah but, why a Gabbits? Why not Vyker, Intern or Mudokon lungs or something?

Gabbits have some sort of medical value in their lungs, probably due to the fact that it gives Gabbits such a wide range of cabablities to perform. Well, if Gabbits are anything like frogs, their lungs have the ability to sustain them for extermely long times underwater and give them buoyancy, and go onto land. Perfect lungs, no?

Species representing the high part of the hierarchy in the Industry business cannot be used, because that just isn't right. Vykkers can't be used, for they're probably too old or simply too manipulated to have the proper lungs for Glukkons. Also, that would creep out the Glukkons. Interns aren't healthy either.

It's possible all of this has gone into experimentation, and Gabbits prove to be the best fit substitute for lungs. It may also be possible lungs from other species may just be rejected, making the condition worse.

[Wil]

Is the fact that Gabbiwogs need to take a dip into the Spawning Grounds to develop lungs simply Mudokon folklore? Because what it seems is that Gabbits haven't gone to Ma'Spa for centuries, perhaps mellinias.

What makes you say this? We haven’t seen Ma’Spa or the Spawnin’ Springs for real, only two pieces of concept art that don’t exactly correlate. We don’t know how long Sekto Springs Dam has been there, but since there are Grubbs that can still remember when the water was free and Steef were running about, it can’t be more than a few decades. Munch is two Gabbits years old, and he has lungs, so assuming a dip in the Spawnin’ Springs really is necessary for lung development, access to and from there must have been possible very recently.

What seems weird to me is that a specific location is actually required for Gabbits to develop their lungs. Can someone more knowledgeable in zoology than me offer any explanations? All I can think of is that the waters there are warmer or richer in nutrients.

[mudling]

Maybe it's just spiritual reasons, like a pilgramage, and spiritual and mental growth is acheived by gabbits going to Ma'Spa, like Jerusulam or Meka.

[abe is now!]

I think every Mudokons want to go on a pilgrimage to Monsaic Lines. It's the place where a Mudokons become a warrior. And wehere a Mudokon purifi his soul.

[mudling]

Yeah you're probably right, I mean, OW's alot about pilgramages and spiritual journey's, as with that quote in SW, I loved that quote.

He was driven out by industrailists, or the cave formed around him, either way, he's in hidding, deep underneath the mountains, as stated before by Max, he was oringally meant to be in a garbige dump, discarded and forgotten by the industrialists.

[Slaveless]

What makes you say this? We haven’t seen Ma’Spa or the Spawnin’ Springs for real, only two pieces of concept art that don’t exactly correlate. We don’t know how long Sekto Springs Dam has been there, but since there are Grubbs that can still remember when the water was free and Steef were running about, it can’t be more than a few decades. Munch is two Gabbits years old, and he has lungs, so assuming a dip in the Spawnin’ Springs really is necessary for lung development, access to and from there must have been possible very recently.

What seems weird to me is that a specific location is actually required for Gabbits to develop their lungs. Can someone more knowledgeable in zoology than me offer any explanations? All I can think of is that the waters there are warmer or richer in nutrients.

Well, in The Art of Oddworld Inhabitants, the describation of the Mongo River said that it was the spawning grounds of old Gabbits. That might refer that Ma'Spa is an ancient city. And Munch's biography said that he just came from a spawning pool high up in the mountains, so it's very well possible that it isn't Ma'Spa.

[abe is now!]

I moved the question here: The Almighty Raisin had evolved from an elder tree in the forests far north of the territories of Mudos. His first 6000 years were spent as an elder tree, after this time, the Raisin reached his third stage of life to shed his roots and limbs to become what he is today. If you include the Raisin's life as a tree, then one could say that he is actually 14,400 years old. Currently, the Raisin lives in a cavern below the mountains of Mudos.

Why does he live now in a cavern? And how did Abe meet him? And what are those mountains mentioned in the biography? When Abe went off the cave, he was in the Spooce Shrub Forest. What are those mountains?

[mudling]

As I said before, a means of hiding.
I assume Abe met him in order to seek out how to save more mudokons, and for advice against the industrialists.

[Nate]

What seems weird to me is that a specific location is actually required for Gabbits to develop their lungs. Can someone more knowledgeable in zoology than me offer any explanations? All I can think of is that the waters there are warmer or richer in nutrients.

When did we ever hear that they go to Ma'Spa to develop lungs? Surely the phrase 'spawning grounds' imply that it is the location that they breed? This correlates well with salmon swimming upstream and sea turtles travelling to the same beaches in which they were born to lay eggs.

[Wil]

When did we ever hear that they go to Ma'Spa to develop lungs?

‘Gabbiwogs develop lungs after a dip in the spawnin springs.’

That might refer that Ma'Spa is an ancient city. And Munch's biography said that he just came from a spawning pool high up in the mountains, so it's very well possible that it isn't Ma'Spa.

It’s very possible that Gabbits come from other rivers as well as the Mongo, but no reason to believe they do. Ma’Spa is a breeding ground, and has been sculpted into a shrine, but what makes you think there’d be a city there?

Why does he live now in a cavern? And how did Abe meet him? And what are those mountains mentioned in the biography?

He has been driven underground to hide from the industrialists. As a figurehead for native and environmental rights, they would love to have him out of the picture. As a tree that’s developed into a thinking, talking creature, the Vykkers would love to tear him to pieces. Munch’s Oddysee is meant to take place in a mountainous area. It doesn’t really show.

[Slaveless]

And how did Abe meet him?

I think pretty much everyway he knows he has to meet someone; visions.

There probably may have been native Mudokons that knew the whereabouts of The Almight Raisin already, and Abe needed to consult with him to find out what he should do next as the messiah and where to find the other enslaved Mudokons.

[Bullet Magnet]

What seems weird to me is that a specific location is actually required for Gabbits to develop their lungs. Can someone more knowledgeable in zoology than me offer any explanations? All I can think of is that the waters there are warmer or richer in nutrients.

The wording of that passage is perplexing, because a gabbiwog without lungs would hardly be "taking a dip" in the spring, so much as swimming to it, if they were not there already. But then, maybe if they were removed or spawned elsewhere they do not complete metamorphosis until they are somehow brought there, indicating an essential environmental factor in stimulating metamorphosis. It does not seem that unlikely that even complete metamorphosis can be environmentally controlled. Especially if there is some nutritional quality in the water, from geological or extra-special (er... other species) sources. Maybe even gabbit hormones from the past/current spawning events are present in the water, and for some reason cannot be manufactured by immature gabbiwogs. I could continue to speculate later having thought more on this.

A quick look around the amphibian literature yielded:

The tadpoles of the Western Spadefoot toad Scaphiopus hammondii, who metamorphose sooner if their ponds dry up.

The same, but earlier.

This one is particularly interesting: the famous axolotl, Ambystoma mexicanum (the original mudkip!), is a species of salamander known for neoteny- it becomes sexually mature as a "larva" and never metamorphoses into an adult salamander. It has lost the ability to metamorphose because it no longer produces thyroid stimulating hormone which is required for it to produce thyroxine, which is what stimulates metamorphosis in salamanders. Injecting the thyroid with thyroxine or iodine can actually stimulate metamorphosis into a full salamander (though the process is stressful and may be fatal) that resembles its close relative, the tiger salamder (Ambystoma velasci, and some pet axolotls may be induced to do the same when stressed (ie cared for poorly), though this seems to be a rare and heritable trait. Once metamorphosed, the salamander's increased metabolism cuts its lifespan by two-thirds and robs it of its remarkable regenerative abilities (limbs, tail, eyes etc).


So yes, I'd say that it is quite possible for a gabbiwog's lung development to be externally influenced in this way, though it is quite peculiar and I would like to find out more.


Wow, gabbits sure are interesting little buggers, aren't they? I hope OWI produces more mass-spawning, metamorphosing characters.

[Zerox]

Good point, BM.

Though it seems doubtful that an entire species presumably once very numerous (particularly given that they lived in the sea in large schools) could breed only in this small area, it doesn't seem likely there'd be room to support so many young, representing the whole species. The entire population of the species would never get very high at all if this was the case, so I presume there must be other spawning areas, or more than one 'Ma'Spa'. Unless Ma'Spa is alot bigger than we imagine it to be, I just don't think the one place alone would have enough room to support an entire species, unless the overall number was always relatively though, but then there wouldn't be many worth bothering to harvest, so...

[Wil]

I considered the idea that an entire species confined to a single river was rather ludicrous, but I imediately thought of the baiji and several other freshwater dolphins. Also bear in mind that the Mongo is meant to be one huge‐ass river, and that species that produce hundreds or thousands of offspring per breeding pair do so because most of the offspring are destined to die very early on.

[Zerox]

I see your point Max. But as I said, those species generally aren't particularly common anyway, and in adult life Gabbits populated oceans, and as such there would probably be more Gabbits in this case than if they only lived in rivers. But then we must consider that Oddworld is 10x Earth size, so perhaps the Mongo could be...no, it's not that big. We saw it in SW, so that kinda screws that idea over...

[Bullet Magnet]

The Mongo in SW was not half the river it was pre-damming.

[Zerox]

Even after the dam burst, I meant.

If the river had been that large, there'd have been more evidence of it. being that the river has not been dammed that long, the terrain wouldn't have changed that much either.

[Bullet Magnet]

You did see the canyons and chasms, right?

[Laser]

Can Thudslugs feel love?

[Zerox]

You did see the canyons and chasms, right?

Canyons don't mean the river was especially big. For the Mongo to be as big as it is 'required' to be, it would need to be bigger than pretty much any river we have on Earth. I don't think there was *quite* the scale of the grand Canyon. All those mean is essentially how long the river's been there to erode the terrain like that.

I haven't played the game, but I'm judging from what I've seen here. I just accept the fact that either Ma'Spa is as big as an entire town or something, or that there are other equivalents to it, otherwise I just can't see how that would work for supporting such a populous species.

I'm fairly sure Thudslugs can feel 'love', if that's the way you want to put it, otherwise they wouldn't breed and soon become extinct.

[Nate]

The pictures we've seen of Ma'Spa are pretty huge so I really don't see it as a problem.

Also, as intelligent creatures, Gabbits may not actually breed every year. Perhaps only certain breeding pairs go to Ma'Spa at any one time.

[Wil]

This is all assuming Gabbit schools were two‐a‐penny in any given Oddworld ocean, when all we know is that they generally live in the sea. Even the Gabbits we see caught at the start of MO were in freshwater. Grubbs live just around the Mongo, having evolved from the fish there. Gabbits could be just the same. As for the dimensions of the Mongo, bear in mind that the range of the excerpts we saw in SW don’t even go back to the river’s source, let alone through the wilderness region seen in MO.

Also, as intelligent creatures, Gabbits…

Although Gabbits are still listed as native on Oddworld.com, the Oddworld Licensing Guide explicitly identifies them wildlife. It seems only natural to me that on a planet with such a huge number of geographically‐limited sapient races of differing evolutionary origins, the lines between various kinds of intelligence and awareness should be much more blurred than they are on Earth. Consider the talking Fuzzles and Chippunkz.

[mudling]

Fuzzles can talk?
Well I guess there "me me me meees" actually mean something, but you could say that about most creatures couldn't you? I always thought that was a joke anyways.
Hmm, interesting you bring the grubbs up, becuase now I think about it, they're the ultamite, literal "fish out of water", that was on purpose right?

[Fuzzle Guy]

Fuzzles only appear to be able to talk after having picked up words from other creatures. The only Fuzzles that talk in MO are the Fuzzles that have been kept in Vykkers labs. Most probably learning to talk from overhearing the Sligs and Vykkers, and other Fuzzles. the Fuzzles in Strangers Wrath don't talk at all, showing us that because their wild, they don't really understand how to talk.

Alot like budgies and Parrotts, they can't talk in the wild but they can when in an environment with people.

[mudling]

That's becuase in the wild there's no humans to immitate.
But you do have a point.

[Wil]

Well pointed out, Fuzzle Guy: You would know. It doesn’t explain how Munch is able to understand the Fuzzles, or how the wild Fuzzles freshly caught by Sligs (in ‘Mudokon Pens’, ‘Mudokon Fortress’, and possibly ‘Flub Fuels Scrub Pens’) can understand Munch. Also Rabid Fuzzles are supposedly escaped/released ADD experiments, but let’s take that with a pinch of salt and recognize it as a joke.

I have read that one of the most complex non‐human animal languages we have on Earth is that of a domestic cat, which uses a range of vocalizations to express affection and make demands. At the same time, most pet birds do not understand language so much as they might be conditioned to associate certain sounds with certain outcomes (although there are exceptions). The Fuzzles’ own ‘mee mee’ language seems to have its own syntax, and by the bad ending they seem to grasp ‘English’ syntax (as well as the concept of quarma).