New Oddworld "Timeline"

[Manco]

Yeah I sort of agree with that, I think it's more the execution that's the problem, just the oversized padlocks and the comedy rattling. The concept of trapping spirits is in line with the Magog's actions, just think they could be incorporated a bit better.

I always thought the rattle was a nice touch as an audio cue, to let you know there’s a trapped spirit in the vicinity. They could be given a better purpose than just being glorified keys however.

[kjjcarpenter]

The more I think about it, the more I think the Spirit Locks/Ghost Traps are perfectly in-tune with Oddworld. The oversized padlock only adds to the madness, in my opinion.

I could absolutely see two superstitious sligs, fretting and bickering as they attach this ridiculous device, around a spirit totem.

Slig #1: I have a bad feeling about this. Why did we get pegged with Spirit Watch duty?
Slig #2: Are we getting paid over-time for this.
Slig #1: Time-and-a-Quarter.
Slig #2: S'mo BS! Hardly worth getting out of bed.
The Spirit Totem howels in torment, and both sligs panic and BS appropriately.
Slig #2: Let's get this bastard on here and go get some brew.
Slig #1: You looking all right, brother? You're looking a bit pale there.
Slig #2: Piss off!

I had too much fun writing that.

[Alf Shall Rise]

I never had an issue with the padlocks but I could see how they would be a little silly in Soulstorm if they're going for a darker tone. I wouldn't have an issue if they were kept and just altered slightly. Honestly I wouldn't have an issue if they weren't changed at all really, but it wouldn't be bad idea.

I fucking hated the knock back whenever you hit them though

[Lord Vhazen]

Thinking on the whole time-line thing...More than likely Munch's Oddysee will be swept under the rug, because despite the nostalgia some of us have for it, I think even the game's biggest of fans know it was a fundamentally flawed game in every sense of the word. It did so much wrong, not just in having a weak story but it just wasn't a very good transition for the series from 2D-Platformer to 3D-Platformer. Lord Lorne himself absolutely hates it because in the end it was nothing like what he wanted - it was nothing like those beautiful pre-rendered test films we saw.

They may do a little bit of fan service by keeping the gabbot race or even Munch himself canon somehow, maybe in the form of an easter egg somewhere in Soulstorm. But if we're ever going to get a real reboot of Munch's story, it should have no more than 1% in common with the original game. There was so much that was planned that got scrapped for time, so many ideas... At the end of Abe's Exodus we actually saw a bit of flavor text teasing for the future, I remember seeing a hint about the Mudokon queen followed by an annoying "Don't worry, you'll find out all about that when you meet Munch!"

Honestly even when playing Munch's game today as it is you can see the evidence of things here and there that seemed as if they were added at the last second to fill in a gap, or even some evidence of half-baked ideas that were never really explored.
For example, in the first Vyker appearance, there's that whole scene where Idiot Scientist 1 is explaining to Idiot Scientists 2 why putting sonar light bulb on a fish frog was a good idea. Honestly when I first played, I thought the game was revealing to me some sort of way that the player could decide to be evil, maybe because the Vykers would offer you some kind of protection or something for doing their chores. I was very disappointed when I realized this never was the case, and the closest you could get in the way of being bad was basically just being a bad parent. Like, you don't watch your precious little stress-balls, and they get killed. That's basically all you can do to defy the game's moral system, and honestly it's a real chore trying to get them all killed if you were hunting for the bad end.

If Munch's Oddysee ever gets remade, I think it, like the rest of Oddworld, should be more canon to the original game's roots - it should be darker, spookier, weirderier, and mystical. Imagine the atmosphere of the first game but for this game? That'd be nice. I think Oddworld still has potential for the 3D platforming world.

[kjjcarpenter]

Thinking on the whole time-line thing...More than likely Munch's Oddysee will be swept under the rug, because despite the nostalgia some of us have for it, I think even the game's biggest of fans know it was a fundamentally flawed game in every sense of the word. It did so much wrong, not just in having a weak story but it just wasn't a very good transition for the series from 2D-Platformer to 3D-Platformer. Lord Lorne himself absolutely hates it because in the end it was nothing like what he wanted - it was nothing like those beautiful pre-rendered test films we saw.

They may do a little bit of fan service by keeping the gabbot race or even Munch himself canon somehow, maybe in the form of an easter egg somewhere in Soulstorm. But if we're ever going to get a real reboot of Munch's story, it should have no more than 1% in common with the original game. There was so much that was planned that got scrapped for time, so many ideas... At the end of Abe's Exodus we actually saw a bit of flavor text teasing for the future, I remember seeing a hint about the Mudokon queen followed by an annoying "Don't worry, you'll find out all about that when you meet Munch!"

Honestly even when playing Munch's game today as it is you can see the evidence of things here and there that seemed as if they were added at the last second to fill in a gap, or even some evidence of half-baked ideas that were never really explored.
For example, in the first Vyker appearance, there's that whole scene where Idiot Scientist 1 is explaining to Idiot Scientists 2 why putting sonar light bulb on a fish frog was a good idea. Honestly when I first played, I thought the game was revealing to me some sort of way that the player could decide to be evil, maybe because the Vykers would offer you some kind of protection or something for doing their chores. I was very disappointed when I realized this never was the case, and the closest you could get in the way of being bad was basically just being a bad parent. Like, you don't watch your precious little stress-balls, and they get killed. That's basically all you can do to defy the game's moral system, and honestly it's a real chore trying to get them all killed if you were hunting for the bad end.

If Munch's Oddysee ever gets remade, I think it, like the rest of Oddworld, should be more canon to the original game's roots - it should be darker, spookier, weirderier, and mystical. Imagine the atmosphere of the first game but for this game? That'd be nice. I think Oddworld still has potential for the 3D platforming world.

While I agree, I don't think a remake of Munch would be particularly remunerative. It would be far better to take the story threads that are worthwhile, and weave them into a far more lucrative and entertaining experience.

[TheParamitePie]

I never had an issue with the padlocks but I could see how they would be a little silly in Soulstorm if they're going for a darker tone. I wouldn't have an issue if they were kept and just altered slightly. Honestly I wouldn't have an issue if they weren't changed at all really, but it wouldn't be bad idea.

I fucking hated the knock back whenever you hit them though

That knock back got me killed more times than enough...

[Lord Vhazen]

While I agree, I don't think a remake of Munch would be particularly remunerative. It would be far better to take the story threads that are worthwhile, and weave them into a far more lucrative and entertaining experience.

That's kind of what I was getting at - I think they should give it another shot, but it should barely even be worth calling a "reboot" or a remake - more of a re-imagination. If they remake it, maybe its basic plot will still have the same principle - like it'll be about a Gabbot named Munch who finds himself lost in a world that's alien to him, and he has to save his race from extinction somehow. And maybe there'd still be the dynamic of the Glukkon queen wanting his lungs because...lungs. But then to make it a more worthwhile game I think they'd have to throw in a lot more dynamics and change some things. The idea of Abe and Munch working together to actually help one Glukkon rise to power for the purpose of manipulating him was interesting, but rushed. Also I think they should give Abe more of a reason to shoe-horn himself into Munch's life besides "LOL you are the hero you have to help him". The Raisin mystic blob thing was basically just a giant plot device after all.

Truthfully you can take all of this and make a completely different game out of it, even if this technically describes the whole game. It just depends on how you execute it. The original game wasn't executed very well. One way or another, I just think the idea of a 3D Oddworld game still has potential, so long as it's not done in the uber kid-friendly style this game was.

[Michael]

That's something that never sat right with me, regarding Munch. This whole concept of Gabbits being so valuable since their lungs are transplantable, so they've been hunted to extinction.

Then you have the last can of Gabbiar, valuable as food.

Surely the Glukkons would see the worth in buying the Gabbiar to hatch in captivity, to raise a captive colony of Gabbits for organ transplants? Surely that'd be far more profitable than just selling the Gabbiar?

[kjjcarpenter]

That's something that never sat right with me, regarding Munch. This whole concept of Gabbits being so valuable since their lungs are transplantable, so they've been hunted to extinction.

Technically, the gabbits were hunted to harvest their blood, as it was suspected that therein lied a cure for Gorman Disenza, a rare disease that affects the exorbidently wealthy.

[Xavier]

Surely the Glukkons would see the worth in buying the Gabbiar to hatch in captivity, to raise a captive colony of Gabbits for organ transplants? Surely that'd be far more profitable than just selling the Gabbiar?

Whoa, you mean having some kind of long term vision?

Doesn't really sound like something a Glukkon would do

[Vlam]

The idea of Abe and Munch working together to actually help one Glukkon rise to power for the purpose of manipulating him was interesting, but rushed. Also I think they should give Abe more of a reason to shoe-horn himself into Munch's life besides "LOL you are the hero you have to help him".

Actually, Lorne Lanning was fully aware of that. MO was meant to be more "complex":

IT: What role will Abe play in Munch's Oddysee?
LL: Abe basically kidnaps Munch in the beginning, so Munch really hates Abe
for first half of the experience.

IT: What will the relationship be between Munch and Abe?
LL: Completely dysfunctional... until they learn how to get along. Munch
winds up in a wheelchair for a good part of the story, and during that time
Abe just pushes him around to where Abe wants to go, without concern for
how Munch feels. So Munch really resents Abe and doesn't hesitate to let
him know it.

http://mastergamer.com/featuresinterviewodd.html

[Varrok]

That looks nothing like Munch we all know and lo... like Munch we all know.

[Nicky Ali]

IT: What role will Abe play in Munch's Oddysee?
LL: Abe basically kidnaps Munch in the beginning, so Munch really hates Abe
for first half of the experience.

IT: What will the relationship be between Munch and Abe?
LL: Completely dysfunctional... until they learn how to get along. Munch
winds up in a wheelchair for a good part of the story, and during that time
Abe just pushes him around to where Abe wants to go, without concern for
how Munch feels. So Munch really resents Abe and doesn't hesitate to let
him know it.

Damn, that could've been something really great! This makes me want to see them re-imagine Munch's story even more 'cause this is miles better than how they meet each other in the actual game.



I feel as though there are still remnants of this relationship between Abe and Munch in the game though, but it wasn't executed very well, so Abe just ends up looking like a jerk to Munch for no real reason.

[Lord Vhazen]

You walk up the door, you see someone, that you know and they ask you how you are and you just have to say that you're fine - and you're not really fine, but you just can't get into it because they would never understand...

If that happened today, Abe would be sued for racism and sexual assault.

[Silver angel]

I've got an interesting idea how Weirdos could met with Abe in order to tell him about Necrum desecration. This will be dark and creepy as OWI want.
In AE Abe saw them in a "dream", what may mean only he can see the souls of ancient Mudokons. Spirits will haunt main hero for some time after AO - for example Abe can hear or see them every time he goes to sleep, or they try to put Abe into sleep artifically (since Weirdos can penetrate someone's consciousness, they may also have an ability to manipulate it), to reach him. But he fears this "hallucinations " and do not want to listen what spirits try to tell.
Or in this case Soulstorm becomes psychological thriller...

[Lord Vhazen]

I've got an interesting idea how Weirdos could met with Abe in order to tell him about Necrum desecration. This will be dark and creepy as OWI want.
In AE Abe saw them in a "dream", what may mean only he can see the souls of ancient Mudokons. Spirits will haunt main hero for some time after AO - for example Abe can hear or see them every time he goes to sleep, or they try to put Abe into sleep artifically (since Weirdos can penetrate someone's consciousness, they may also have an ability to manipulate it), to reach him. But he fears this "hallucinations " and do not want to listen what spirits try to tell.
Or in this case Soulstorm becomes psychological thriller...

The Weidos were way better plot devices than The All Mighty Raisin.

[TheParamitePie]

The Weidos were way better plot devices than The All Mighty Raisin.

Agreed.

[Silver angel]

Raisin could have been an interesting character if they didn't cut out a part of plot. For example he could tell us something about ancient races, Mudokons may be, and old times of Oddworld. Almighty Raisin could become the next creature who will send Abe to new temple. No temple trials in MO very upset me when I played the game.

[Nicky Ali]

I've got an interesting idea how Weirdos could met with Abe in order to tell him about Necrum desecration. This will be dark and creepy as OWI want.
In AE Abe saw them in a "dream", what may mean only he can see the souls of ancient Mudokons. Spirits will haunt main hero for some time after AO - for example Abe can hear or see them every time he goes to sleep, or they try to put Abe into sleep artifically (since Weirdos can penetrate someone's consciousness, they may also have an ability to manipulate it), to reach him. But he fears this "hallucinations " and do not want to listen what spirits try to tell.
Or in this case Soulstorm becomes psychological thriller...

That's an interesting concept. Maybe as the player works towards the bad ending by getting bad Quarma they could hear more and more hallucinations from the spirits? That'd be pretty creepy.

[Vlam]

Or Abe having visions of himself as a baby getting his lips stitched. He could also become a Mudovampire. That'd be creepy as well.

[Silver angel]

That's an interesting concept. Maybe as the player works towards the bad ending by getting bad Quarma they could hear more and more hallucinations from the spirits? That'd be pretty creepy.

I'd love to see it! But at the same time I think this will be too cruel: Abe is not to blame that player wants to get bad ending.

[Nicky Ali]

I'd love to see it! But at the same time I think this will be too cruel: Abe is not to blame that player wants to get bad ending.

Well, the bad endings aren't any less cruel to Abe anyway. 😮

[Alf Shall Rise]

The Weidos were way better plot devices than The All Mighty Raisin.

Raisin could have been an interesting character if they didn't cut out a part of plot. For example he could tell us something about ancient races, Mudokons may be, and old times of Oddworld. Almighty Raisin could become the next creature who will send Abe to new temple. No temple trials in MO very upset me when I played the game.

What really bothered me about the Raisin is that it seemed so random, and almost disconnected. Big Face and the Weirdos were Mudokons, and the Weirdos seemed like a logical progression from Big Face. Starting from the typical spiritual mentor dude, and then having some ancient spiritual dead folk. The Raisin was just....a giant raisin thing that for some reason had some sort of authority. Even if there's some lore that I don't know about, none of it is stated in the game.

[Silver angel]

What really bothered me about the Raisin is that it seemed so random, and almost disconnected. Big Face and the Weirdos were Mudokons, and the Weirdos seemed like a logical progression from Big Face. Starting from the typical spiritual mentor dude, and then having some ancient spiritual dead folk. The Raisin was just....a giant raisin thing that for some reason had some sort of authority. Even if there's some lore that I don't know about, none of it is stated in the game.

I think he was not initially such a faceless character, as become. I still like Raisin.

[Xavier]

Well yeah, the Raisin definitely could have used some more back story and introduction.

Lorne stated multiple times that MO broke his hearth and it's easy to see why, there are way to many narrative shortcuts and shortcomings.

[Lord Vhazen]

Well yeah, the Raisin definitely could have used some more back story and introduction.

Lorne stated multiple times that MO broke his hearth and it's easy to see why, there are way to many narrative shortcuts and shortcomings.

For me, I think what disappointed me the most about MO is we never got to see the sacred Mudokon queen or the mechanical Shrink that watched over her as she was trapped in some glukkon vault somewhere. That was originally supposed to be a part of the story somehow, and it's unclear whether we were supposed to break her free of her restraints and bring her back to the safety of some cave somewhere to start some kind of rebellion, or if it'd be more of a tragic glance at what they've done to her to motivate the player in the adventure to fight the industrialists.

The way I envisioned it was us going to see her crumpled up in her depression inside some vault somewhere, hooked up to a bunch of machinery, and Abe would break in to see her to seek advice on what to do to help the Mudokon people and she would show you your destiny or whatever before security comes rushing in which forces you to flee. Imagine the rush that'd give, it'd be for a great slig run level and along the way you'd get to see a lot of really dark scenery.

[Vlam]

By the way, according to Wil, The Shrink was meant to appear in NnT.

[Xavier]

The way I envisioned it was us going to see her crumpled up in her depression inside some vault somewhere, hooked up to a bunch of machinery, and Abe would break in to see her to seek advice on what to do to help the Mudokon people and she would show you your destiny or whatever before security comes rushing in which forces you to flee.

Sam wouldn't be of much help, she's completely drugged and barely lucid.

[Havoc]

Well yeah, the Raisin definitely could have used some more back story and introduction.

The Raisin would have been a stupid character no matter how much backstory he has. He functions soley as a plot device to facilitate the shortcuts in MO's storyline. If and when MO's story is ever properly told I hope they leave him out entirely.

[Vlam]

I've found this:

I'd always assumed a proper introduction would have been included in Munch's Oddysee, but like many things was excluded. I don't happen to know what that introduction is. The Raisin was created when OWI liked the look of a design, and not the other way around - hence the Raisin wouldn't have appeared in Lorne's original plots. But that's all I know.

Just remember that at the end of AE, the Weirdos told Abe that he'd know all about Queen Sam when he met Munch. Maybe Abe learnt of the Raisin and seeked him out, asked of Munch and that's where we join in. Or maybe there's an interesting story between the two times, which would make a great third Abe game in the future.

http://www.oddworldforums.net/showthread.php?p=137591