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  #91  
03-15-2011, 04:46 PM
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That is...

a rare argument.
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  #92  
03-15-2011, 04:50 PM
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I wasn't a burden, either.

My mother was quite overjoyed by my birth.

It goes to show when the child is eventually born, joy overcomes anxiety.
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  #93  
03-15-2011, 05:05 PM
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I'm sure she was just being nice.
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  #94  
03-15-2011, 07:30 PM
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My mother miscarried two months before concieving me.

Still feels weird.
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  #95  
03-16-2011, 07:10 AM
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I know what you mean. I often wonder who I would know if the shared zygote of two of my best friends had not completely split at the beginning of their gestation.
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  #96  
03-16-2011, 10:14 AM
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If an Abortion is done early, I think its not murder as the 'Baby' its no more then a few cells that don't have any intellengence.
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  #97  
03-16-2011, 02:12 PM
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Well, it's still extinguishing life. The "baby" didn't have any cells or intelligence yet.

That said, I am pro-choice.
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  #98  
03-16-2011, 02:27 PM
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Well, it's still extinguishing life. The "baby" didn't have any cells or intelligence yet.

That said, I am pro-choice.
In that case is masturbating also murder since it kills sperm? What about all the ones that die during sex too :P
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  #99  
03-16-2011, 02:30 PM
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I think this thread had it coming.

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  #100  
03-16-2011, 02:30 PM
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As I said on the last page, sperm and eggs are as much life in potentia as chicken and stock are soup in potentia.
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  #101  
03-16-2011, 03:46 PM
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They're already alive. Life doesn't begin at conception, it began nearly four billion years ago, back to which we can trace an unbroken line of living entities.
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  #102  
03-16-2011, 05:10 PM
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If an Abortion is done early, I think its not murder as the 'Baby' its no more then a few cells that don't have any intellengence.
How do you define that line, then? If you're gonna restrict it to the stage where the embryo is just a small bundle of cells, you'll only be allowing abortion within the first few weeks of pregnancy.
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  #103  
03-17-2011, 04:47 AM
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Defining lines on a continuum is a mug's game.
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  #104  
03-17-2011, 09:43 AM
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How do you define that line, then? If you're gonna restrict it to the stage where the embryo is just a small bundle of cells, you'll only be allowing abortion within the first few weeks of pregnancy.
Yes I do however I don't think it should be done in the first few weeks. It just depends on the views of the family.

And i don't know a borderline of it beeing wrong but If people think that abortion is murder, don't you think doing it in the first few weeks isn't technally killing a human?
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  #105  
03-17-2011, 10:06 AM
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a lot of horrible shit goes on in the world. that's why i am pro-choice.

i find it fucking insane that there are people out there that see abortion as 'evil' or 'murder'. judgemental, brainwashed fucks that have an incredibly peripheral view on the matter and see the world through rose-tinted windows.

this is also partly why i am pro-euthanasia.
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  #106  
03-17-2011, 10:09 AM
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Euthanasia is a fucking no-brainer. You may not be able to ask a foetus if it's alright being killed but someone has every right to end their agreement with themselves to keep living.

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  #107  
03-17-2011, 10:13 AM
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I just think that we should leave the notion that human life is sacred behind. Human life is probably the least sacred thing this planet has. X_x

Not that I mind being human. I like my various emotions at hand, but I dont see the big benefit in considering fetuses sacred, and just as privileged as their host at all. except stroking the moral ego of some stuck up hinderists(i like to call people who hinder progress this word as I have no idea what other word to use).

My belief is that a successful society is a happy society. That doesn't mean that we have to agree with everything and not be offended. It means that people have the freedoms they need to be happy, as long as it doesn't hurt other people emotionally(this doesn't include moral ego).

Thus, it's no one's business if a host chooses to abort. Everyone else will MOOOST likely get over it, and the host will have a great chance of being able to continue their life as they wished without the added stress.

Of course I also think that people should be very informed about abortion and what it does. Also make sure the host is very certain about their decision, cos for some, abortion might hurt them more than they expected, and that's a shame too
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  #108  
03-17-2011, 10:19 AM
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I don't believe in abortion unless there is a medical reason for it. In my opinion an embryo is a potential person, and as for the argument that they are unconcious and too undeveloped to be subject to the same ethics we are, consider this. When you're a newborn your quite ignorant of life aswell, but that's not the point; you have a life. And Human life is so full of potential. So from where i'm standing you shouldn't just be considered human weeks before you emerge purple, naked and screaming, potential begins far, far before then.


We are, in so many ways a careless society. We shouldn't encorage this attitude to be taken towards our future aswell.
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  #109  
03-17-2011, 10:38 AM
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it isn't an 'attitude'. i believe that sometimes its the best option. you implied that, without a valid medical reason, abortion was careless. sometimes people become pregnant unwillingly, accidentally or even unknowingly. an unsuspecting underage could accidentally become pregnant. what then? do they have to go through childbirth, raise that child and struggle with school? or maybe have their child taken away from them and have that same child grow up without its real parents, if any at all?

or you could go the other way. if someone was raped, and found out they were pregnant due to it. there's no medical reason why they should abort. should they raise that child knowing its father was a rapist? do you tell the child about how they were conceived? do you just lie, or tell them that they don't know who their father is? and that's without even considering the possibility that the child may grow up to look like the very person who raped the mother. that is not freedom of choice, and these are the very basics.

i have no doubt that my two examples have, obviously, happened before and they did raise the child and probably lived happily ever after, but that isn't always the case. hell no.

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  #110  
03-17-2011, 10:52 AM
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The abortion debate is a different beast entirely when you're familiar with the field of teratology, the study of aberrations of embryology. The word has a Greek root that means at once "wonders" and "monsters", so it's perfect.

Particularly horrific is when a damaged embryo attempts to regulate and recover, leading to astonishingly ghastly results that are almost normal. For example, you cannot know if an embryo is going to develop into a baby or a foetus in fetu, in which one foetus develops inside of another (a condition that should give pause to those who believe that souls are enshrined at conception, but never does). We often hear stories in the news about people who, as the headlines put it "give birth to their twin". Such twins to not go on to earn doctorates and run companies as did Dr Jonas Venture Junior in The Venture Brothers. I believe incineration and pickling in methanal are the only two options available for such wretched scraps of human tissue.

One incident that stands out in my my memory was in Colorado Springs two and a half years ago, in which a foetus was diagnosed with a brain tumour. It was delivered at the earliest safe opportunity for surgery, and instead of a tumour they found folds of intestine, part of a hand and two tiny feet, one of which you can see flopping out of the child's brain here (warning: not safe for the squeamish).

It is unclear that this is an example of foetus in fetu, there are things called teratomas, which are cancers that spontaneously differentiate into other human tissues such as hair, muscle, teeth and nails, but the level of organisation required to form a foot as part of a tumour is not otherwise known.

The child they were removed from is doing fine as far as I know, and there's no question that these fragments of non-sentient tissue had to be removed, but the image of that foot bears striking similarity to the gory pictures of aborted foetuses that anti-choice protesters love to parade around, pointing out details such as hands, feet and faces.

There was no human being, no person, behind those perfectly formed toes. It is a piece of human tissue that has executed part of the genetic programming of cell:cell interaction and induction that those kinds of cells can do. Which is exactly what an embryo or foetus is. People can arise from these processes, and there is definitely something spooky, "disquietingly resonant of humanity" in those pieces of embryos and foetuses, but we should not be fooled. They're beautifully patterned collections of differentiated cells, but there's no person there.
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  #111  
03-17-2011, 10:53 AM
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Of course I also think that people should be very informed about abortion and what it does. Also make sure the host is very certain about their decision, cos for some, abortion might hurt them more than they expected, and that's a shame too
Totally. The law isn't flexible to decide which abortion is right or wrong so it should be up to the mother case by case and fully informed.

Regardless of my stance, if a friend of mine had an abortion I would be totally there for them and respect their decision.
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  #112  
03-17-2011, 10:55 AM
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But human life is sacred, even on a non-religious level. What could be better, we are capable of happiness, sadness, a hundred more emotions. Intelligence, character, friendship, beauty, compassion. We evolved over millions of years to become to complete, unchallenged dominant species.

And I agree with Dix, if there's rape involved or a severe medical condition that would render the child horribly unhappy for its life, perhaps abortion should be discussed as an option. I have a third cousin (if that's the right term), born a year or two ago who has a horrible condition, something that I believe would have been life threatening, he needs a fake vocal cord, he needs tubes to help him relieve himself and I think he has had internal surgery of the heart and lungs. But I believe his is now a happy little boy.

Even in my own life story, I had mucus in my lungs as a baby and was in a lot of trouble but I wasn't aborted thank the Lord God and now here I am, fine as day.
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  #113  
03-17-2011, 12:13 PM
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How can something be non-religiously sacred?
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  #114  
03-17-2011, 12:42 PM
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Simple, the word loses a lot of its original contextual meaning. Just as people say, Cod 7 is god or 'Bees at the Bottom of the Garden' is the Bible for any apiarist.
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Oh yeah, fair point. Maybe he was just tortured until he lost consciousness.

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  #115  
03-17-2011, 12:57 PM
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You're overreaching there.
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  #116  
03-17-2011, 01:26 PM
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And I agree with Dix, if there's rape involved or a severe medical condition that would render the child horribly unhappy for its life, perhaps abortion should be discussed as an option.
Oi motherfucker, both my parents knew I was going to be a financial liability considering the job my father had wouldn't be enough to support a third child.

That made me sad too, thinking I was an offspring of rape. Or it was my fault for not being more in depth about my origins.

Not to brag, I really do think I'm a good example of why abortion is wrong. It was for definite, a change of fate decreed I was born, even though both parents didn't want it.

Alas, they were both happy when I was, because it was a life they both created. They have no regrets...aside from that time I proved to my father that the particular country was called Hungary and not Hungaria. His comeback was, YOU WERE AN ACCIDENT. YOU ROBBED US FINANCIALLY WITH YOUR CONSTANT FUCKING CRYING AND SHITTING IN YOUR £5 NAPPIES!

I think abortion is acceptable if the couple isn't prepared (teenagers, for example. Or an adult couple unable to meet the financial agreements to support the child).

A couple who is able to support, but won't because they're not ready or they just don't want a child, is a bit...far...

Other than that, I don't care for abortion's arguments. Do what they will, I tend not to choose sides in such an argument.
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  #117  
03-17-2011, 01:29 PM
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Your dad sounds like my Dad. And hey, I was a financial little shit as well, my Dad was out of work I think when I was born but he wasn't on the dole. Had to become a milkman or something.
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  #118  
03-17-2011, 02:17 PM
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I think that Abortion is completely subjective, but less people is a good thing. Rape victims have every right to give up or keep the baby.
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  #119  
03-17-2011, 06:29 PM
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Defining lines on a continuum is a mug's game.
But it is the role of the legislative process to draw a line somewhere and say this is fine but this isn't.

Of course, politics is also a mug's game, so in reality we are agreeing with each other.
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03-17-2011, 07:13 PM
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Bullet Magnet
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The legislative process might as well decide whether elephants are black or white.

Incidentally, I'm surprised no one's commented on the picture of the foot. Have I posted it before?
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