Sex Free Passports -

Sekto Springs · #91 09-24-2011, 08:48 PM

That seems really fucking obtuse. Just saying.

Wings of Fire · #92 09-24-2011, 09:10 PM

Shame that purple dinosaurs don't display observable behavior that you can aspire to and mimic.

moxco · #93 09-24-2011, 09:32 PM

...and neither do males or females.

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what is defined as male-like (or otherwise) is a societal construct.

***Nate*** · #94 09-24-2011, 10:07 PM

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What I'm saying is that the idea of being psychologically male or female is stupid. I don't wake up in the morning thinking 'I'm feeling especially male-like today' because what is defined as male-like (or otherwise) is a societal construct.

Yes, you do. You (and I, for that matter) just don't think about it because your mindset matches what society says it should be. If it didn't, I can assure you that you would be thinking about it quite a bit more.

Strike Witch · #95 09-24-2011, 10:25 PM

I just want to be a drummer.

moxco · #96 09-24-2011, 10:55 PM

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Yes, you do. You (and I, for that matter) just don't think about it because your mindset matches what society says it should be. If it didn't, I can assure you that you would be thinking about it quite a bit more.

The mindset was, most likely, also originally created in accordance to what society says it should be. If there were an isolated society, where little boys were bought up in dresses and given Barbie (or rather Ken) dolls to play with, I doubt they would really have any qualms.

***Nate*** · #97 09-24-2011, 11:02 PM

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The mindset was, most likely, also originally created in accordance to what society says it should be. If there were an isolated society, where little boys were bought up in dresses and given Barbie (or rather Ken) dolls to play with, I doubt they would really have any qualms.

Perhaps. But what's your point?

moxco · #98 09-24-2011, 11:17 PM

That unless it is succeeded by in the opinion of a narrow-minded, generalising, gender-role-prescribing society males can't claim to be psychologically female, or vice-versa.

MeechMunchie · #99 09-25-2011, 03:04 AM

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I identify as a purple dinosaur, as I feel comfortable in doing so I must psychologically be a purple dinosaur.

Well that's just called delusion.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I was going to stop posting in this thread.

***Nate*** · #**100** 09-25-2011, 04:21 AM

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That unless it is succeeded by in the opinion of a narrow-minded, generalising, gender-role-prescribing society males can't claim to be psychologically female, or vice-versa.

What? I really don't understand what you're saying.

In any case, from what I'm guessing your point might have been, the fact is that we do live in a society that defines gender in a certain way and knowing that it's an artifical concept won't make anyone feel any better that they don't fit in.

Cammy · #**101** 09-25-2011, 04:55 AM

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I identify as a purple dinosaur, as I feel comfortable in doing so I must psychologically be a purple dinosaur.

Just saying, you are a moron. Male and female identities are for the most part society constructed objects, such that one of the prime reasons we act the way we do is because of our expected gender roles. While you may biologically have the sex of female or male, acting like the opposite gender, can be perfectly natural for any person (unless you believe that people don't have individual personalities, which is bullshit but if that's what you believe I can pretty much guarantee arguing with you is a fruitless endeavor, though that is the case for arguing with most people.) While females may be more predisposed to being more emotional because of hormonal changes in the body as well as males being predisposed to being violent or "manly" means of doing things because of more testosterone, human personality isn't controlled by just the hormones of one's body (which again, if you believe humans are controlled solely hormones, that's bullshit) and not every humans has the same amount of hormones.

So combine these things, and you can get males with low testosterone levels, and a natural girly personality, while they may be biologically male, their gender is female. Why? Because gender is mostly a societal construct. Sex isn't. And most people who don't know any better (ie you, who thinks gender is something exclusive to each sex and is impossible for one person to be the other, and thinks being a purple dinosaur, a physical thing, is equivalent to a psychological personality). Which is why many people who identify as a female but have the sex of of a boy or a girl who identifies as a male, but has the sex of a girl, choose to undergo a process to make them appear more like a girl or boy, so that they feel like they belong better in society, or that they feel that they can be more proud of their appearance and so they better match what society perceives as a girl. The reasons are varied, but it's not unnatural for a person to want to look like the other sex, especially when they perceive themselves as the opposite gender of their sex. And people who undergo the process have their hormones rebalanced to match the other sexes. And their personalities don't do 180's. Because hormones don't control ones personality. And personality defines gender, not your organs. Because gender isn't something inherent in nature, while sex is.

moxco · #**102** 09-25-2011, 06:31 AM

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Just saying, you are a moron. Male and female identities are for the most part society constructed objects, such that one of the prime reasons we act the way we do is because of our expected gender roles. While you may biologically have the sex of female or male, acting like the opposite gender, can be perfectly natural for any person (unless you believe that people don't have individual personalities, which is bullshit but if that's what you believe I can pretty much guarantee arguing with you is a fruitless endeavor, though that is the case for arguing with most people.) While females may be more predisposed to being more emotional because of hormonal changes in the body as well as males being predisposed to being violent or "manly" means of doing things because of more testosterone, human personality isn't controlled by just the hormones of one's body (which again, if you believe humans are controlled solely hormones, that's bullshit) and not every humans has the same amount of hormones.

I'm sorry, have you read this thread at all? Perhaps you should do so because your counter-arguing something that was never said.

Wings of Fire · #**103** 09-25-2011, 06:35 AM

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That unless it is succeeded by in the opinion of a narrow-minded, generalising, gender-role-prescribing society males can't claim to be psychologically female, or vice-versa.

You realize you were probably brought up to be a boy from a very young age, right? Same with girls being brought up girls.

So

I don't get what you are trying to say?

moxco · #**104** 09-25-2011, 06:46 AM

Agh. The differences between males and females is something created by humans. And don't point out that there a gender roles amongst other animals too; that's not what I'm talking about.

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NO IT DOESN'T!
Tell me, what does it mean to be a women? What does it mean to be a man?

Wings of Fire · #**105** 09-25-2011, 06:51 AM

Um, exactly?

Also just note that you are perfectly entitled to personally identify as a purple dinosaur, but don't expect your claim to be legitimatized without psychological proof that you are actually a purple dinosaur inside.

moxco · #**106** 09-25-2011, 06:52 AM

Um, exactly what?

MeechMunchie · #**107** 09-25-2011, 06:54 AM

Well then surely your insistence that the concept of gender is a manmade illusion would imply that there was therefore less significance to the distinction and therefore less reason why someone could not fit either regardless of their genitals?

EDIT: Fuck I'm doing it again~

MeechMunchie · #**108** 09-25-2011, 06:54 AM

EDIT: I have no idea how this double post happened, the page just kind of broke.

moxco · #**109** 09-25-2011, 07:05 AM

If gender is a man-made illusion then it is pointless to differentiate between male and female (psychologically, that is); which should therefore be solely applied to biological sexes.

Wings of Fire · #**110** 09-25-2011, 07:32 AM

Manco · #**111** 09-25-2011, 07:53 AM

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If gender is a man-made illusion then it is pointless to differentiate between male and female (psychologically, that is); which should therefore be solely applied to biological sexes.

Uh, no?

Gender may be a social construct, but that doesn’t make it unimportant. Gender roles, behaviours and expectations make up a huge part of people’s psyches, and just saying “lol social illusion guys” won’t make people ignore that.

Look at the stigmatism faced by transgenders, transvestites, bisexuals, homosexuals etc. Tell me (and them) it’s just a social construct.

JennyGenesis · #**112** 09-25-2011, 08:12 AM

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You realize you were probably brought up to be a boy from a very young age, right? Same with girls being brought up girls.

What about when your parents are not around though? Being a boy, I was obviously raised as a boy, action men, cars (yeah, no surprise there) ETC and all the manly things that most boys are raised with, but when I was very young most of my friends were girls, so when I would be at their houses I would end playing with Barbie dolls and all that girly nonsense.

I didn't detest playing with all girly things, for starters I was left without a choice, but at the same time I never thought, yeah I'm totally loving this I want to be a girl. When at home I felt more comfortable and happy playing with my "boyish" things. I guess with trans people they feel a connection with what they are doing when interacting with and doing things usually associated with the opposite sex that is a strong connection that makes them feel happier and therefore feel that they should have been born the opposite sex.

Sekto Springs · #**113** 09-25-2011, 08:22 AM

Where does futanari come into all of this?

Goresplatter · #**114** 09-25-2011, 01:43 PM

I don't fully understand the issue here... surely the use of a passport is so others can identify the individual with the most ease possible? Being psychologically male or female wouldn't really have an impact on that, but being physically male or female would. How they identify themselves is going to be mostly irrelevant toward how random strangers identify them, unless the change is physical.

From; http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAn...tion/DG_174152

"Changes to your appearance
You must renew your passport if your appearance has changed permanently and significantly, so you can't be identified from the photo in your current passport.

This will apply to you if, since your passport was issued, you have:

•undergone significant facial surgery or trauma
•had numerous/large facial piercings or tattoos"

'Significant facial surgery' might be included in a gender-changing operation. It seems to me that if they've undergone this, they will more physically resemble, in face and body, what the result of the operation was. If they have not undergone this surgery, then they will physically resemble what they are biologically, not psychologically. If one can just identify themselves as the opposite gender, then they may aswell delete the 'gender' input of the passport entirely as it no longer serves any meaningful purpose.