Hopes for Soulstorm? -

OWI_Pete · #91 08-23-2016, 06:27 AM

Some interesting insights in this thread.
We're constantly discussing the balance of difficulties because, as some of you point out, we need to be able to welcome new people into the Oddworld family while still appealing to those of you who have been here since the start and like your challenges rock hard. So I think it's fairly obvious that it'd be a mistake to go all-in on a super difficulty mode but I also think it would be a mistake to abandon the difficulty as we strive for accessibility, right?
In other words, we are listening to everyone and thinking hard about all of this. We're going to do our best to make sure everyone is looked after in this regard.

Varrok · #92 08-23-2016, 06:50 AM

I think including a hard mode with quiksave and other helpers disabled would be a win-win. I mean a mode that can't be changed mid-game.

Of course disabling the quiksave would mean there needs to be a good checkpoint system, or an equivalent of it. Abe's Exoddus lacked it, unfortunately.

I also think that AE's pseudo health system (Sligs don't hit abe on their first shot, but rather on the third one) works better than NnT's, mainly because it's more believable and less obvious. I mean, how can you survive a few shots to the chest being basically naked? It doesn't make much sense

You can also tweak (reasonably) the number of licks it takes for fleeches to reach the center of Abe, for different difficulties.

My last thought is it generally is a bad practice (and a common one, unfortunately) to design the game around the easiest/easy difficulty and *then* design the harder modes. It usually leaves both sides (More and less experienced gamers) unhappy, with the veterans being the most unhappy, as the hard modes become very... cheap. Like, let's exaggerate a little, mines blinking green for only a nanosecond. The original Oddworld games were definitely challenging, but they never felt cheap at the time.

It's not an easy job finding a fair balance, I wish you all the best!

Havoc · #93 08-24-2016, 01:17 AM

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Some interesting insights in this thread.
We're constantly discussing the balance of difficulties because, as some of you point out, we need to be able to welcome new people into the Oddworld family while still appealing to those of you who have been here since the start and like your challenges rock hard. So I think it's fairly obvious that it'd be a mistake to go all-in on a super difficulty mode but I also think it would be a mistake to abandon the difficulty as we strive for accessibility, right?
In other words, we are listening to everyone and thinking hard about all of this. We're going to do our best to make sure everyone is looked after in this regard.

The only tip I'd have for you concerning a limited number of lives; playtest it multiple times on that difficulty and adjust accordingly. This is something I think wasn't done properly with NnT because some puzzles on hard were simply a matter of complete luck. Sligs having random reaction times (sometimes instant, sometimes not) and meatsaws being way too fast to reliable time. In other words; if during playtesting you find that some puzzles had to be done over 10+ times before someone got them right, it probably needs to be looked at. Don't ship that shit like that and let us complain about it.

***Nate*** · #94 08-24-2016, 09:25 PM

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The only tip I'd have for you concerning a limited number of lives; playtest it multiple times on that difficulty and adjust accordingly. This is something I think wasn't done properly with NnT because some puzzles on hard were simply a matter of complete luck. Sligs having random reaction times (sometimes instant, sometimes not) and meatsaws being way too fast to reliable time. In other words; if during playtesting you find that some puzzles had to be done over 10+ times before someone got them right, it probably needs to be looked at. Don't ship that shit like that and let us complain about it.

This. And to emphasise what Havoc said about randomness: If I do exactly the same thing within the limits of human finger dexterity and timing, the characters on the screen should react exactly the same. When it's single shot kill, randomness is not a fun attribute.

Holy Sock · #95 08-25-2016, 04:26 AM

I'm re-playing New n Tasty at the moment and one thing I really think needs changed is Abe's movement.

I think as Oddworld has moved into sidescrolling, analog controlled platforming Abe needs to have a fluidity of movement that other platformers have. Sort of being stuck halfway between the precise rigidity of the originals and the freemoving modern platformers makes gameplay a little too stiff I think.

Also, I think everything's too fast in New n Tasty. Perhaps it's the lack of animation frames for certain movements but I feel like if everything was paced a little slower it would create a more immersive experience.

Also perhaps less hand holding? You can really feel the 1990s design in New n Tasty - I'm enjoying the environment and level design of modern platformers informing me on how to progress rather than various signs and arrows always keeping the player from getting stuck.

For example perhaps there's a better way to inform the player that Elum dislikes bees than a big sign in Scrabania saying so.

Also it would be cool to see a more natural introduction to various game elements. Teach the player gradually rather than a huge info dump at the beginning. I suppose Exoddus sort of had that. But perhaps the game could have less written tutorials? I don't know.

I just want to see OWI bring a new take to Abe platforming rather than trying to force the old flipscreen precise platformer into a movement sensitive sidescroller.

HOMINIX · #96 08-26-2016, 03:59 PM

As far as a harder-than-hard difficulty, I think re-tuning fall damage to be closer to the original, and removing the ability to quiksave would be enough to make the game challenging enough for old school fans, maybe even reducing the frequency of save points?

I was a fan of how Sligs missed the first 2 shots in Exoddus - it was a great way to make things a bit more forgiving while still making it clear that 1 bullet will kill Abe. Perhaps if people wanted a really really hard difficulty, you could remove that feature for that specific option.

Michael · #97 08-28-2016, 06:45 AM

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This. And to emphasise what Havoc said about randomness: If I do exactly the same thing within the limits of human finger dexterity and timing, the characters on the screen should react exactly the same. When it's single shot kill, randomness is not a fun attribute.

I had a similar frustration with Arkham Origins. The whole Arkham combat system relies on reactions and timing- it's essentially a game of memorising how long each move takes, and judging whether you have time to execute a particular move before taking a hit.

In Arkham City, there were variations to certain moves, sure, but they pretty much lasted the same duration or the enemies would hesitate to compensate. To me, it worked pretty flawlessly.

In Origins, they adjusted the combat to include random moves. Sometimes an aerial attack would go automatically into a ground attack, and sometimes it wouldn't. When the entire system relies on timing, this just means I have to avoid using that move as I can't rely on it! I have no idea how long it will take, and the risk is rarely worth it. They also made the enemies attack at random speeds. More realistic yes, but it defeats the point of the rules of the game and makes it near impossible to play properly.

Essentially, as you said- if a game relies on players learning timing, the timing has to be consistent.

Nepsotic · #98 08-31-2016, 02:41 AM

I agree with Holy Sock, less hand holding and obvious tutorials. I still like the idea of the scrolling LED screens but they definitely need to be more subtle.

Shade667 · #99 09-03-2016, 02:52 AM

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This. And to emphasise what Havoc said about randomness: If I do exactly the same thing within the limits of human finger dexterity and timing, the characters on the screen should react exactly the same. When it's single shot kill, randomness is not a fun attribute.

This 100%+.

Sligs are the only random factor in NnT, and theyre not even a consistent random.

UnderTheSun · #**100** 09-03-2016, 06:31 AM

Based on some of the ARG stuff, I can't shake off the suspicion that there's going to be a Fangus Klot-esque time limit to save the Mudokons. Probably just me grasping at straws, but it sounds kind of interesting (if a bit hard, but that's probably a good thing).

(Also, based on the new tone, saving Mudokons is probably going to be even more heartwarming (even if some wind up being hateful drunkards, since they'll have Alf's rehab).)

Vlam · #**101** 09-03-2016, 07:40 AM

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Sligs are the only random factor in NnT,

If only that were true...

Nepsotic · #**102** 09-03-2016, 10:04 AM

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This 100%+.

Sligs are the only random factor in NnT, and theyre not even a consistent random.

Pretty sure I said this like a year ago and it was denied by everyone else including you.

:

Based on some of the ARG stuff, I can't shake off the suspicion that there's going to be a Fangus Klot-esque time limit to save the Mudokons. Probably just me grasping at straws, but it sounds kind of interesting (if a bit hard, but that's probably a good thing).

A time limit throughout the whole game? That would be terrible games design.

UnderTheSun · #**103** 09-03-2016, 11:30 AM

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Based on some of the ARG stuff, I can't shake off the suspicion that there's going to be a Fangus Klot-esque time limit to save the Mudokons. Probably just me grasping at straws, but it sounds kind of interesting (if a bit hard, but that's probably a good thing).

A time limit throughout the whole game? That would be terrible games design.

Probably depends on how it would be handled. Pikmin pulled it off reasonably well, although time was organized into sessions instead of a constant ticking clock.

Whatever the case, I think that the ARG implies a time limit in some form, even if it's just referring to the Necrum Mines being blown up (since there was always the potential of Mudokon being left to die in the explosion)... Or just story independent of gameplay.

Nicky Ali · #**104** 09-04-2016, 02:03 AM

So I always thought the model they showed for Abe looked a little weird and I was wondering if that's just because he's in black & white, so I decided to colour the blue bastard myself just to see.

(This was the result of, like, 5-10 mins in Photoshop)

Havoc · #**105** 09-04-2016, 07:03 AM

Somehow I think the eyes are going to be a lot less bright yellow.

Nicky Ali · #**106** 09-04-2016, 07:21 AM

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Somehow I think the eyes are going to be a lot less bright yellow.

Yeah, I think I went a little too extreme on the eyes - they're a bit too glowy. It'll be interesting to see just how off the mark I was when they eventually show the official one.

Varrok · #**107** 09-04-2016, 08:09 AM

What if they're aiming at more... realistic color palette?

Gunnr · #**108** 09-04-2016, 08:34 AM

Maybe a little more greenish blue?

eheh bubblebutt.

Nicky Ali · #**109** 09-04-2016, 09:01 AM

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What if they're aiming at more... realistic color palette?

omg, Albino Abe

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Maybe a little more greenish blue?

I agree, definitely not enough greeny colours around the mouth and neck area. Also, yeah I chose BubbleButt as my handle ages ago and I'm constantly conflicted between whether or not I love it or hate it as a name o_o

Nicky Ali · #**110** 09-04-2016, 10:06 AM

Okay so I had another quick go at Abe:

Abe has a very diverse colour palette of greens, blues and purples so it's a little bit hard to get it just right - especially when he's staring right at you the entire time looking like he doesn't approve of any of this.

Overall, a few things I've noticed are that his forehead seems to be caved in whereas usually he has a more convex Homer Simpson type head and his eyes are just a little too close, I feel. Makes him look just a little more like a human than a Mudokon. Of course, this could all just be because of the angle and at this point these are nothing but a few nitpicks.

Gunnr · #**111** 09-04-2016, 07:45 PM

^ "I think we're close"

Not quite though

Fraki · #**112** 09-05-2016, 02:51 AM

It might just be me, but seeing Abe coloured like that makes him look... Weirder? I'm not shitting on your work, you did a good job, it's just seeing how dark the game looks to be, he looks very bright? Like if you mute the colours slightly...

Nicky Ali · #**113** 09-05-2016, 03:36 AM

Hmm, actually looks a lot better with muted colours! As for now I guess we'll just have to wait and see, can't be that long of a wait at this point surely? Maybe we'll hear something at that Playstation conference on September 7th.

Shade667 · #**114** 09-07-2016, 04:58 AM

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Pretty sure I said this like a year ago and it was denied by everyone else including you.

Probably. The problem is some of them arent random.

We're still figuring stuff out. Weve only just figured out how bottlecaps function properly.

And by we I mean they cuz im not doing shit.

Havoc · #**115** 09-07-2016, 01:12 PM

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Probably. The problem is some of them arent random.

We're still figuring stuff out. Weve only just figured out how bottlecaps function properly.

And by we I mean they cuz im not doing shit.

Being useless at the speed of light, eh?

SlashClaw · #**116** 09-07-2016, 04:29 PM

One thing i hope for in SoulStorm is the Slig barracks doesn't become a chore to go though

***Nate*** · #**117** 09-07-2016, 09:41 PM

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Weve only just figured out how bottlecaps function properly.

Wait... what did they figure out?

Shade667 · #**118** 09-08-2016, 03:11 AM

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Wait... what did they figure out?

That bottlecaps can be stood on in midair for a frame or 2, allowing abe to traverse larger gaps by essentially making the gap smaller.

Weve been doing this for a while. But we didnt know exactly why it worked. Didnt know that it was the properties of the bottlecap creating a temporary platform.
But now we can literally make a staircase of bottlecaps to traverse gaps.

You can see it at the start of this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wVi...ature=youtu.be

Manco · #**119** 09-08-2016, 08:51 AM

I love the insane shit speedrunners discover.

Jaster · #**120** 09-08-2016, 10:08 AM

2 things I'd like to be in Soulstorm are:

-Bring back shadows.
-Multi language dubbing, I loved the first oddworld games being dubbed in a lot of idioms, and it was like a "stab" when I found that in New'n'tasty only the subs were in other idioms, I hope it changes with this game.